For all of you on the forum who shoot both doubles and bolt actions.

I have shot bolt actions all of my life, competion, hunting, etc. Now I have been bitten by the bug to own and take on safari a classic double, the .470 NE, which I am considering for my safari next year for buffalo. I know my .416 is adequate but its not a double. Have you experiencd any problems switching from a bolt action to a double while on safari?
CFA

CFA
I too have shot bolt rifles all of my life, including competition.
About 5 years ago I started using double rifles.
I have not been on Safari yet [June 2004], but I have used the doubles in Texas, Montana, and Alaska. With the exception of 3 deer all of the game I have taken in the last 5 years have been taken with double rifles. I highly recommend them.

There is one BIG problem..... Once you use a double rifle, and find that you like them, your bolt rifles will just be "stuff in the house that is in the way."
My recommendation is to get your 470 and practice with it until it is as familar to you as your bolt rifles.
You will very much enjoy hunting with a double rifle.

I have only one big bore double and a number of big bore bolts. My personal opinion is that more can be done to tame recoil with stock design on a bolt than on a double. However, the 470 NE is not an especially hard recoiling caliber so you should have no trouble with it.

The other consideration is sights. If you were born and raised with a scope, it may take some time for you to shoot open sights accurately. The key is practice. If you have been involved in competitive handgun shooting or high-power rifle shooting, you will not need much time to transition to the open sights on a double.

I have observed that most PH's recommend that their clients bring a bolt gun with a scope. That is because few people handle iron sights really well, and even fewer of them have substantial experience with a double. Get dies and lots of brass and shoot your double a lot. With the 470 you can use 30-60 grains of XMP5744 and a 500 grain cast bullet for light recoiling practice loads.

I agree with NE 450#2. I don't really ever shoot any of my bolt action rifles anymore when hunting for myself. With a couple of exceptions I wouldn't miss any of them. The only exception is when on a Horse, where I would not risk any expensive rifle.

After you use the 470 you will be looking for a smaller rifle for North America.

Two years ago, bitten by the same bug. Bought a 470 after looking the field over quite a bit. Used in last year on 4th trip to Africa. Previous trips and all North American rifle hunting was done with conventional actions - mostly bolt. Had absolutely no trouble switching over and had an amazingly great time with the double. Shot 4 animals with it on that trip last year, including 2 of the Big 5.

Go for it !! Echo the sentiments of lots and lots of practice. (Using ammo that costs lots and lots of $$) Good luck!

I use both about equally..I allways take a double and a bolt gun to Africa every year..I hunt in the US with a lever gun, I have a pump shotgun and a o/u Browning superposed..I shoot them all and they are all interchangable without a problem, but I can also chew gum and walk, so one needs to check that out first then proceed as scheduled...

You'll love the double guns, if you are confirmed African hunter gun nut, thats the only requirement..other than a pocket full of money!!

As to practicality, a double is no longer needed in Africa, with a PH to back up your play and probably never was essential, but I would not be without one...

It brings to mind the only difference in men and boys, is the cost of the mens toys, thats me and the double rifle...

Mickey and NE 450 No. 2 aren't kidding. My first two were both big bores - and then I had to have a medium for North America. I use the little medium bore double almost exclusively for hunting here at home and my bolt rifles gather dust. Went to the range today, fired three different double rifles, no bolts.

Shoot the .470 enough to get used to it and you won't have any trouble. You won't find switching between action types to be a problem.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Aha does this mean we can have a:-

"3 gun double rifle armoury for everything" style post?

If so my vote is

6.5x57R 127gr deer
8x57JRS 200gr elk moose etc
450/400 NE (a la Sweet Thang)400gr

For those wanting more range I would substitute the 8x57 for a 30R Blaser (or 7x65R which would remove the need for the 6.5)

I too have taken both to Africa, with no problem,
except for the accuracy of the double. I just returned from the Eastern Cape where 300yd shots
are the norm. The answer may be don't go to the Eastern Cape, stay in the thicker stuff if you
want to use a double. Whenever I read about
3-4 inch groups at 100 yds, I am skeptical. I've
done it, but for each 4" group, I shoot 20
6-10 inch groups. No one wants to wound animals.

I try to use my double whenever I can. Used within the ranges they were designed for, they are a joy to hunt with. They are not a long range tack driver.

I used a Mod. 70 in .375 H&H and a 450/400 3 inch on my trip. I encounterd no problems switching between the two.

Here in States, I rely on my double and if I need a longer range weapon, my rifle of choice is my Mauser action .300 Apex.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

577NE,
I have to disagree with you on the accuracy of a double gun...Any of them will shoot as well as the worst barrel will shoot...

My last gun was a 1" gun everytime and my present gun will shoot 1.5 everytime and mostly 1"....I have no use for any gun that will not shoot at least 1.5 inches at 50 yards, I just might have to shoot a Buffalo in the eye and a 4" gun won't do that...

I do spend the time to tune my guns and that takes some effort and if they shot 4" groups I would certainly have David Yale re-regulate them or I would sell it and get a better shooting gun...

IMO, the coined addage of "minute of grapefruit" is a croc! not for this kid...

577ne:

I agree with Ray, that is pretty poor. If yours was a good quality rifle to begin with, get it re-regulated. If not, get a better rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Ray and 400: Maybe I'm not a very good shot.
Some of what you say flies in the face of Graham
Wright who in his book on Brit doubles says that
2-3 inch/50yds is quite acceptable, and that he
almost never gets under an inch. How about a symposium at Reno on how to shoot a double with
open sights? I'd be front row, center.

Everyone knows the double rifle, especially the big bore double, is not a Camp Perry 1000 yd contender. However, any double that will shoot no tighter than 6", to 10" @ 100 yds is hendered by one of two things! #1,and the most likely, the shooter can't shoot with iron sights, in combination with the way the rifle is rested while shooting for group! #2,is the load developement has not been properly done, or both! Otherwise, the rifle needs to be re-regulated.

CFA, Welcome aboard the double rifle train! It will give you a real ride, I assure you! As all above have said, once you use a good double the rest of your rifles will seem mundane, to say the least!

The 470NE is a good choice, for the Buffalo you intend shooting with the double, and that chambering will hold it's resale value better than any other caliber! If that is the way you have decided to go, then there are a couple of things I would do before I started! I would first, if you don't already have one, buy a loading press that will handle the length of the loaded 470 case, along with a case trimmer, or trim dies, that will also handle the 470 case, as trimming is critical, for crimping for proper loads used in a double rifle! Also buy a lot of good brass for this rifle, and seperate about 20 rounds of it for load developement. Use only this 20 pieces to work up your load, and once the load is found load all the NEW UNFIRED brass you have with your hunting ammo load, and set it aside! Keep the 20 rounds for practice shooting, with that load. If you want to use a lighter cast load for stump shooting, then buy about 40 rounds of brass for that purpose, and keep the two sets of brass seperate. All hunting of dangerous game hunting with this rifle should be from unfired brass, with the ammo only chambered in the rifle to make sure it all drops in, and out, without any binding.

One thing I might suggest is, if you are buying a used rifle, then try to get the load used by the preveous owner. This will be a big help, if you can get a good load that groups, and will save you many $$$$, in wasted componants.

I don't think you will have any trouble useing the Double, if you simply shoot it a lot! If you make the proper preperations, and work up a proper load, you will enjoy your new big game rifle. If, however, no preperation is taken, your life can become a nightmare! What I'm saying is, the double rifle is not a tool that is used without some study, first!

[ 11-24-2003, 20:41: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

Ditto Mac!
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

When I first got my 450 No2 and my 450/400 3 1/4"
It was Turkey season here in TX. I was on a lease that had a problem with skunks and armadillos.
So I took my doubles to the lease with 60 rounds each, which I fired every weekend. I did a little plinking if I ran out of skunks or armidillos, I used solids for the armidillos of course.
By shooting my doubles so much on small stuff I acquired confidence in them and my ability with them. Before I starting hunting with doubles [with the exception of handgun hunting] I had only killed 2 deer with iron sights. Since getting the doubles about 5 years ago I have killed the majority of my game with the doubles and iron sights. Including 2 black bear, [Montana and Idaho] and 2 caribou in Alaska.
No doubt a scoped 243 would be a "more efficient" deer rifle on my deer lease, but it would not be one-tenth the fun.
The more you use your double the more confidence you will have and the more you will realize what a great hunters rifle it is.

double post!

[ 11-27-2003, 04:27: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

Thanks to everyone for their posts, that is good information. I intend to research some doubles and see if I can find one that fits. Probably will be a new model but oh wouldnt a .470 Westly Richards or a Holland and Holland be nice, that is if I win the lottery.

CFA

500ne,

I couldn't do a symposium on shooting the double rifle...if I did it would sure be short..I throw the rifle to my shoulder and pull the trigger the second the sights are lined up at 50 yards and beyond, short of 50 I point and shoot, I can do this very well because my gun fits me and shoots where I point.

No magic, no technique, no BS, I just put the sights on them and pull the trigger...I have been shooting irons all my life and hunted with them as much as I have with a scope, perhaps that is some help, but I doubt it...

I do know many folks who claim they cannot shoot irons as their eyes are not as good as they used to be, thats just a crutch of no substance IMO and as long as they keep producing corrective lenses for us..I wear bifocals and I haven't been hindered...Most just talk themselves into believing such hooey..the answer is practice and lots of it, until you get it down, an accurate well regulated rifle, and one thats sighted in properly...

To truly test the accuracy of a double rifle, simply shoot a couple of groups with each individual barrel..that one that groups the worst is exactly what you can expect from that gun when properly regulated, as the best barrel will group inside that one when you bring them together.

I'll likely stick with scoped bolt guns. For my purposes, they work better than well, I like them, and I'm thirty-years used to them. As I see it, doubles are more purposeful in the hands of a PH who's experienced in their use. For the client, they're more of an exercise in romance than anything else.

If I did get the itch for a double, I'd buy a good used English rifle, and it would have to be the right gun in terms of condition, quality, features, etc. One of my local acquaintances paid some $20K for an old double that was ready to come off the face, which is not an investment route I'd care to follow myself.

The current low-end doubles are low-end for a reason, and the new best-grade British rifles cost too much for my level of interest, plus the wait tends to be l-o-n-g. And as I understand it, when your new rifle does arrive, you pay the current price - not the price at the time you placed your order!

AD

Oh, Allen, your such a fuddy duddy..get with the program, romance is one of the great adventures of life, be it with a blond or a good pair, of barrels that is!

I would half to agree with everything 450#2 has said,AND--It will just make you feel great about taking african game with a old classic english cart. in your double!!!