This vs. that on the topic of what caliber is most effective or would a lesser caliber shot in the same spot done the job.

Personally i'm sick of those threads so i decided doe my first time ever on AR since 98-(wow its been that long.) I'd start my very own this vs. that thread. It is my first and last one.

the facts: I have shot about 225 head of game with a 35 H&H and 4 head of game with a 450 Dakota. One elephant with a 577T-Rex.

the break down: 12 elephants with the 375 only a few problems and insufficant penetration on a followup shot when the cow was trying to stand up, my PH's 450 Ackley did the trick. The only elephant I shot with the 450 hit the deck instantly, however I have accomplished the same thing with perfectly hit elephants with the 375,

to continue,

the elephant seemed to hit the deck harder with the 450(whatever that means)

Lets move on to buffalo, I cant remeber how many I have shot I think its around 13-15, I know for a fact I shot 2 with the 450 and they were both hit perfectly Its on a video and they hit the deck faster than anyother buffalo I have shot with the 375.

so the conclusion is the bigger the animal the need for a bigger gun, but thats not true because the charging cow elephant hit 2 times with the 577 had only 2 feet of penetration. we recovered the bullets in its neck.

Its ambigious(like my spelling) but I think the 450 is optimil for DG and the 375 is sufficant and the 577 is a toy for Saeed to trick his friends with.

I hope you enjoy my this vs that thread, I stayed away from these threads for years and never got involved in the 1000 post (something) Hunting Bullet thead a few years back or the 45-70 wars,

cheers,


eric

But what will we fuss about now.

I'll bet you had round nose brass solids and A-Square loaded ammo in the .577 Tyrranosaur. That is a recipe for disaster no matter what the velocity and no matter the marksmanship excellence.

BTW, I agree the .577 Tyrranosaur is merely a joke, a stunt gun. I sure wouldn't want to hunt with one.

Now you are leading us back down the path of neverending debate: .270 or .30-06?

You seem to admit that a .450 Dakota kills with more authority than a .375 H&H.

Since you started it: whatever you shoot well at whatever weight you carry well, bigger is better, but anything over 50 caliber is just silly.

Your right thats the bullets I had for the 577,

And your spot on, the 450 does seem to appear to kill with more authority than than the 375, however I posted the number of kills and its one sided because everything I have shot with the 450 was perfectly hit, i'm going to hunt with it alot more the next few years and it will be interesting to see what happens when i make a mistake. there isnt enough kills with the 450 yet for me to make a factual statment. It hard work all that hunting but I'll stick with it and
get the numbers right.

Uhh, Eric? On your second post, you said the 450 dumped the animal. Since you've mentioned the misspelling, could you have forgotten a -7 between the "5" and "0"?
Ooops, now I've gone and done it.

There's something magical about forty-something bullets, particularlly it seems 45 caliber is about optimal for heavy calibers where energy AND penetration really matters. I personally favor the 6.5 in small caliber for the same reason. These two seem to fill their respective niches perfectly. Load them in whatever brass you like but 6.5 & 45 bullets are tough to beat. Just my PERSONAL opinion, if yours is different it doesn't hurt my feelings one bit.

We're off and running! Now for me with only a couple of Buffalo and a Leopard, which I admit was from a ballistic standpoint easy to kill... the .375 H & H was enough gun. Although an Impala I shot for bait was hit thru both shoulders and gave us a moment of excitment!










Yes this is the rifle that loves to travel!

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Uhh, Eric? On your second post, you said the 450 dumped the animal. Since you've mentioned the misspelling, could you have forgotten a -7 between the "5" and "0"?
Ooops, now I've gone and done it.

sorry i'm confused.

oupa,

your right there is something about the 40 somethings that seem to have the correct balance of everything.

308,

nice gun

LV,

And your point is?

My point is that I thought I would share my experiences hunting with those that are interested. If your accuseing me about stirring up the shit take it some where else, i'm not a kid or an arm chair wanna be, I hunt every year and was shareing what I have done thus far I have nothing else to say. If you have something of substance or a counter point then we have something to talk about, have a nice week.

Eric, given your experience, would you still hunt ele & buff with the 375H&H or only use the 450 from now on?

Also, what bullet are you using in each gun and at what velocities (I assume 300 grn @ 2,500fps for the 375).

I'm going back to Zim in 2007 for cow ele and I'm planning (for now) on taking a 470 NE as the big gun and a 375 H&H as the light rifle.

Thanks.

Tim

I read somewhere that Saeeds various video clips of the T-Rex has single handedly resurrected it, and orders stand at two years wait.

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
Eric, given your experience, would you still hunt ele & buff with the 375H&H or only use the 450 from now on?

Also, what bullet are you using in each gun and at what velocities (I assume 300 grn @ 2,500fps for the 375).Tim

The 375 was pushing 300 gr X bullets at around 2400 fps as i remember, for plains game and the Tugsten Speer for DG at the same velocity.

I used the 500 gr tugsten in the 450 this year and cant remember the velocity, probably 2200-2300 fps, I didnt use it on plains game I had a short hunt because my back as bad, the 2 buff I shot I cant remember what bullet(2003) i used its on the video where I shot 2 and cut my eye on the scope. i'm sure you have seen that vid-i hope you did. this is why i want to use the 450 on DG for the next few hunts and buy a Double to practive with now so in 08 or 09 i'll be ready for it, I constantly work on my skills as a hunter. I dont like to walk oin the bush and be the triggerman for the PH-I want to be the hunter and i'm headed that direction,

I will awalys take the 375 for camp meat and baits, but for DG the 450 is where my education is begginning. I'm going to use the 450 open sites with 500 gr Tugsten core Speer bullets,I think they were going 2300 or a bit less, I only shot one cow ele and it was a frontal brain shot spot on and wow did it go down, but I have seen the same thing with the 375, thats why i want more practice with the 450.

I'm going back to Zim in 2007 for cow ele and bulls 4 total next year. I would have shot 4 this year if my back didnt hurt so bad and I'm planning on taking a 450 as the big gun and a 375 H&H as the light rifle.

Thanks.

LV Eric:

I read your post about shooting elephant with great interest. I used a 375 H&H on my one and only trip to Africa in 1993 for buff. (Federal factory ammo, 300 gr. solid) What interested me about your remarks was that my PH told me that in "control" shooting for the Ministry of Parks and Game in Zimbabwe (as it was known then in 1993) of elephant, he always used a 375 H&H. I gathered that it was because he could stand off and put a killing shot in without having to practically stick the rifle in the elephant's ear. I kidded him that if the 375 was so great -why did he carry a 470 NE? He told me: " Gerry, a 375 is a killing bullet. A 470 is a stopping bullet". Ever since when I read the posts of experienced people like you I think I always have understood that a bullet can serve two different purposes in Africa!

Rancher Jack, incoming President of SCI-LA Chapter has his bull skull on a nice wooden stand. One of the more impressive demonstrations of the .375 on Elephant short of seeing it, is the two brass cleaning rods inserted in the holes showing complete penetration.

quote:

Originally posted by gerrys375:
LV Eric:

I read your post about shooting elephant with great interest. I used a 375 H&H on my one and only trip to Africa in 1993 for buff. (Federal factory ammo, 300 gr. solid) What interested me about your remarks was that my PH told me that in "control" shooting for the Ministry of Parks and Game in Zimbabwe (as it was known then in 1993) of elephant, he always used a 375 H&H. I gathered that it was because he could stand off and put a killing shot in without having to practically stick the rifle in the elephant's ear. I kidded him that if the 375 was so great -why did he carry a 470 NE? He told me: " Gerry, a 375 is a killing bullet. A 470 is a stopping bullet". Ever since when I read the posts of experienced people like you I think I always have understood that a bullet can serve two different purposes in Africa!

For a client rifle a 375 is perfect as determined by my PH and me after spending countless hours in the truck. And we also decided that a 450 anything is the perfect backup gun incase the shit hits the fan.

My reason for changing over to a 450 is because I have shot 12 elephants with the 375 and about 12 buffalo with it as well. Honestly it was getting repetive it wasnt much fun and not changling anymore, My goal is to be good enough at hunting to guide a client-I'm not makeing a career change. But I want to hunt at that level so we (PH & me) decided that iron sights on the 450 was the next step, so basically I'm hunting with a kit similar to what a PH uses, I cut the barrel down to 22" so it wont hang up in the Jess and got rid of the band & hood on the front sight, I had Roy Vincent cut my rear sight while he was staying at my home-I was honored.

I have only shot one cow with it at 35 yards no sticks and didnt need to put an insurance shot in her. When I shot the pig and 2 buffalo with the samegun in 2003 it had a wood stock.

In summary I shot about 30 DG animals with the 375 and it was getting routein, I have shot 6 lions with the 375 and will use it again on lion

The reason i'll use it on lion again os the precision needed for a lion just isnt there useing iron sights, if I was following up a wounded lion then an open site gun is the only way to go. Thats also why we decided that for the initial shot on an elephant of buffalo is best/optimal with a scoped rifle, that's good insurance for the PH and affords the client a better chance of a one shot kill. Not bragging but my shooting skills are good enough that my PH Alan Vincent isnt worried about me hunting with open sights but I wasnt ready until now.

I shot a hippo this year with the 375 I was standing in 18" of water sinking while I was up on the sticks, it was a one shot kill as well, but with open sites in that circumstance I had no chance useing the 450, but had I not hit it right the extra power the PH has(450 ackley) is necessary in the event i wounded it and it charged. Precision shooting is great for the first shot, K.O. power is what the back-up gun is for.

Another reason I promote the use of a 375 for hunters who havent hunted alot is its recoil isnt and issue thus makeing it more reliable, we all flinch from time to time but it minimuzes the chance that a client will when it counts. I dont have any issues with recoil so the 450 is fine, if I did I would freely admit it and stick to the 375, it aint about being a tough guy its about quality shooting when it counts.

Adrenelin is a whole nother topic it can bring out the best or worst from hunter to hunter and that cant be changed over time, luckly It brings out the best in me, Alan said its about 50/50 with his clients.

surestrike,
See i didnt start this thread to stir up shit, i'm a hunter and have been queit lately and just like to share, hell I gave away hunderds of videos here a few years ago to AR hunters. i like to help hunters and contribute to AR Saeed is my friend as are alot of AR members.

Have another drink.

this is a good thread I hope. Please ask me anything here, I have been quite on AR recently, I dont know why but i'm back until I go to Germany again for my second back operation on aug 25. I have learned alot since I started hunting in 2000. I have about 220-230 days hunting since 2000 and 230 head of game. still cant find a leopard. I was planning on hunting 60 days this year but my back condition is so bad I had about 25-30 days booked and hunted 10 or 11 some were half days.

I'm not a booking agent or have anythoing for sale I just am in the mood to share my experiences, there are some long time AR members that know me well, I dont exaggerate or streach the truth. One a side note the booking agents here in my opinion are great people, i dont use them but recommend any one of them for first time hunters or even guys like me if I was looking to go somewhere different.

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
Have another drink.

i dont drink.

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:
My point is that I thought I would share my experiences hunting with those that are interested. If your accuseing me about stirring up the shit take it some where else, i'm not a kid or an arm chair wanna be, I hunt every year and was shareing what I have done thus far I have nothing else to say. If you have something of substance or a counter point then we have something to talk about, have a nice week.

LV,

I don't know what your problem is but I'll bet it's hard to spell.

CHILL OUT!!

My point is that you've come to exactly the same conclusion as everybody else who's ever started a .375 vs. .450 or whatever thread. And anybody who's shot a buffalo with anything from a .375 & up comes to the exact same conclusion. Therefore I figured that since we've already covered this subject multiple millions of times like YOU alluded to that there was just a tiny little bit of tongue and cheek in your thread. EXCUSE THE HELL out of me.

Thanks for sharing. Try not to be so sensitive next time. You should try a little tiny bit of a sense of humor. It's good for the mind, body and spirit.


LV,

I know what you are going through with your back I am still recovering from a three level anterior cervical fusion. It is not good for the attitude to be in pain all the time.

I hope that all goes well with your upcoming operation. It didn't go well for me.

Just a little note, you are also talking to a real deal hunter. I use a .470NE and a .375H&H on every DG hunt it's perfect combination and I wouldn't hesitate to use either for any job required on said hunt.

There is no reason to suspect that I am belittling you in any way. I just don't take myself quite so serious and it surprises me when others do. Sorry to ruffle your feathers.

Have a nice week as well.

Sure strike,


your right what ever my problem it is hard to spell but its yet to be diagnosed.

I know its a circular argument about this Vs. that thats why I said I avoided them all until i started my own threadbased on what i seen, i have been quite around here for along time so i wanted to come back with a splash and make a thread on a topic that involved all my hunting experiences and share it with everyone, the majority of my posts were made after only 2 hunts, now that i have a little more gray hair and a few more rackd of biltong to my name I thought i would tell the world about it, i just thought it was a low shot talking about stiring the shit , perhaps i was sensitive, i'm in bed 20 hours a day right now and my moods swing, i'm only 39, i just waqnt to go hunting again but not until next year. no harm no foul cool?

LV,

No hard feeling here. Now I can really relate to your situation. I'm 38 and for all intensive purposes was an invalid less than five months ago.

The good news is that just now I am starting to feel human again. It took a long time but I can walk at a very rapid pace all day long again after 6 months of nearly being bed ridden and my strength on my left side while not great is better and starting to improve. I can press 35 lbs and curl 25 lbs with the left side. I couldn't move my left arm last February. And to give you an idea before three disks collapsed in my C-spine I could throw three hundred lbs around pretty easy like.

There is light at the end of the tunnel my friend, hang in there. I am going to celebrate my if not full, then adequate recovery either next year or the year following with a ball buster of an adventure which will of course include big rifles and dangerous game in serious no BS hunting country.

I went from being a very robust, extremely physical, hard core hunting, big bore shooting SOB to a cripple in less than a month. I took third place in the world double rifle shooters competition shooting for Butch Searcy last October. By mid November I could barely walk or get out of bed. The pain was all encompassing and total in it's severity and duration. The drugs made me feel worse.

My surgery had complications to tune of them telling me I may never get the use of my left arm or chest back again. The pain and loss of mobility was almost more than I could take. I got so depressed over this whole thing that I very seriously considered putting myself out of my misery with a frontal brain shot. It's a good thing that I am gun geek however, because I could never figure out the best caliber, rifle configuration, or sighting system to best get the job done without evoking a charge

While I know this is off subject and probably too much information for you I just wanted to let you know that a positive attitude and a surgery are going to make you better. Heck I'm doing so good that I am back at work flying jumbos across the Pacific. And you'll be better soon too. Just don't let it go to long as the nerves have a tougher time recovering the longer they are compressed. I assume you are going to Germany to have an artificial disk implanted? I kind wish I would have done that too.

Hang in there you'll be fine.

a big for both of you.

L

That was very cool thanks buddy. its amazing that were both in the same boat at the same age, i have to go now i'll PM you later. all the best thanks for understanding.