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I asked about this in the big bore section but didn't get much information. I am debating between the 570gr TSX (which I am confident performs well) and the 600gr WoodLeigh PP for Cape Buffalo. I am wanting to know if the Woodleigh is a good enough penetrating bullet for backup shots? I would be comfortable using the TSX for backup shots should I expect the same from the Woodleighs? thanks | ||
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Woodleigh bullets work great - that is of course if you make a good shot. Otherwise, no bullet make a difference! Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement! Practice! JW | |||
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What to expect? Well, if you shoot him in the right place ... a dead buffalo! | |||
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Maybe I needed to be more specific, should I expect similar penetration especially for backup shots? Would the 600gr PP work exclusively without the use of a solid for backup shots? thanks | |||
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I only shoot doubles and make my first shot with a soft and then follww-up with solids if necessary. Conversly, Saeed makes his own bullets and from what I have been able to read, uses the same bullet for all situations. I would suggest that you use what your PH recommends, JW | |||
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I certainly cannot comment on 600 grain bullets of any type. I've heard good things about the Woodleigh PP's in 350 grain, albiet overpenetration being a possibility. | |||
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Bare in mind that one of the primary reasons for using a soft bullet on Buffalo is to minimize the chances of a "shoot through" and the possibility of hitting a second animal unintentionally. The Woodleigh will stay within the animal most of the time. This can't be said about the Barns X. | |||
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I am a whole hearted fan of Barnes TSX bullets and have used them widely in Africa and the US with super results. However, I used 410 grain Woodleigh's in my dakota 416 Rigby on two large Tanzanian Buffalo and would again. The three bullets I recovered were perfect in mushroom and weight retention and solids as well in form and weight retention-l soft and two solids. The display of PURE POWER is nothing short of AWESOME ! 1 JOHN 3:18 | |||
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Mate I have only been lucky enough to shoot two Cape Buffalo using my .500 jeffery. I only used woodleigh 535grn pp neither buff ran more than 60m. I have a friend who has used both the 600grn & the 535grn who said all he achieved was using more powder! So its up to you try one on game an then the other if you don't see any diiference then use the light bullet  | |||
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Well actually zhaba, the 600gr uses less powder than the 535, so shouldn't I use the bigger  | |||
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FWIW, I've used the 535 grain Woodleigh PP a lot over the years on Buff and have never felt the need to go to the heavier bullet. Several shots have been at previously wounded Buff running directly (ish) away and I've stuck in a texas hear shot and dropped 'em like a sack of shit every time. The bullet usually penetrates the length of the Buffalo or close to it. | |||
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Thank you shakari, that is the information I was looking for. Experience shooting backup shoots on the buff. | |||
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If it's of any use, I like the Woodleigh SP for cats and they're also the dog's bollocks for those point blank coup de grace shots on spined Buff where you whack 'em through the spine and into the heart. You'll usually find 'em in the sand, under the dead Buffalo afterwards. Check the left hand bullet as an example:  | |||
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What to expect from Woodleigh's on Cape Buffalo? Very dead buffalo if you put that Woodleigh in the proper place. | |||
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I agree with the 535 grain bullets in the 500 Jeff. That is the original loading, at 2300-2400 fps it will flat dump a buff when hit in the vitals, and recoil is a touch less.....of course with the Jeff that's relative. Gary DRSS NRA Lifer SCI DSC | |||
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The shot placement is very important ! I shot many buffalos with my 460WM and 500grs SP bullets from Hornady ( old ones ! ). With my 500 Jeffery, i shot one buffalo and had, on the spine, a broken 535grs FMJ bullet from Woodleigh ! | |||
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Tanz---You're really splitting hairs here. May I offer you a different approach and mindset to your impending buffalo hunt. Instead of questioning bullet performance for the second/backup shot, put the focus on your first shot. Do the Barnes and Woodleighs group well from your gun? If so go with them. I cannot advise you on what bullet performs better without knowing that it shoots straight from your gun. Have you even determined that yet or are you cyber or aisle shopping for bullets. Buy two or three different brands, test them in your rifle and then narrow it down from there. Bullet performance, first strike or backup shot, means absolutely nothing unless you can place it somewhere in the right spot. And it's your first bullet that you want to deliver in the right spot. Once you've done that, you won't be too worried about a backup shot. Don't go into the fight with the mindset that you'll kill your foe with your backup plan, when in reality you can accomplish the objective with the first stone you throw. I also concur with what Jeff said earlier. The Woodleigh FMJ is a better selection for a backup shot than the PP. | |||
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 900 Grain Weldcores and FMJ... Fired from 600 OK @ 1950 FPS MV... Weldcores were quartering and broadside shots @ around 75 paces and were recovered under hide on opposite side... Recovered FMJs were frontal shots at around 50 paces and were recovered under hide on hind quarters... Visible reaction to initial shots and huge wound channels... I think Woodies are great if kept under their recomended impact velocity... Matt V. ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
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Ditto & Ditto... Use a combo of softs and solids... There was virutally no difference in POI between the Woodie softs and solids in my gun... ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
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At this point I am just "cyber shopping," I am in the process of having the rifle built. I realize the importance of the 1st shot, what I also understand is that with Buff you need to have a good backup plan in place. What "might" happen could cost someone their life. For example, in October we hunted Gelai for mountain buffalo. Because of cover we had to get pretty close to the Buff (20 yds), the 1st shot was good but the bull started to run and the 2nd shot dropped him. This was using 270gr TSXs from a 375 H&H. I had confidence in the TSXs for backup shots. My question is, can I have the same confidence with the Woodleighs? Remember in Zambia you shot that buff with the 577 NE, was the backup shot important their? Would you be confident shooting Woodleigh PP in that situation? I have never used the Woodleigh, thus I am wanting to know its capabilities for the backup shot. I'm sure for the 1st shot it would do fine (according to shot placement). thanks | |||
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Tanz, None of this is exact science but I will try to answer you question in two ways. The answer is no for the Woodleigh and no for the TSX if you are talking about a second follow up shot on an animal going away. Both those bullets are designed to expand and what you need in that scenario is penetration. Will they work probably...have they worked lots of times...probably hundreds...were they designed for maximum penetration for a follow up shot going away...No. If that is what you are trying to solve get a solid. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I've got a 500 Jeffery and have been working up loads with the 570g TSX. They shoot well in my gun and I have a lot of Barnes 570g banded solids to go along with them (bought on sale at MidWay). I am also very interested in the Woodleigh 600g PP though. I'm thinking expansion is more of a sure thing with the Woodleighs as long as they provide the penetration needed. So for you folks with 500 class rifles, who have experience on buffalo, I'm gathering as long as I keep the .510 calber 600g Woodleigh PPs below 2200 fps performance should be fine? Thanks, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Good post.I may add that all the controlled expansion bullets got their start in North America where people used the inappropriate cartridge to do the job of larger cartridges. | |||
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Tanz: Good question my friend and a very good example for the answer you're seeking. Let me come clean regarding that hunt, which is one of the lower points of my buffalo hunting career. That first shot was too far to the left/back. At that distance 25 yards, I would have been confident with a 300 grain Woodleigh PP for a backup shot, but I missed the entire buffalo with my second shot. i totally muffed the shot. I should have anchored that bull while I had the chance but I blew it. The Woodleigh PP or FMJ would have worked for that scenario, but as a general rule I'd feel more comfortable with the solid. That last shot that, the frontal one when it dark, was the best shot I made. And it was the most difficult shot. Funny how it worked like that. I screwed up on the gimmme and made that hunt alot more dramatic than it should have been. I'm looking at that buff in my trophy room as I write. And I think that last shot was ...a Woodleigh FMJ! So yes that's a perfect example of where the backup or in some cases, the prayer shot was really important! | |||
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The TSX with enough velocity obviates the need for solids on buffalo. I have used Woodleighs and TSX bullets on buffalo in my .458 and .500 caliber rifles. I am now a believer in tougher softs than Woodleighs, primarily because I also believe in driving DG bullets to higher velocities than the Woodleighs can handle. Big bore Woodleighs are definitely softer bullets, even the Protected Points - it is very important to drive them no faster than the 2,150-2,250 fps velocities for which they are designed. They will work well at those velocities, but will overexpand if driven faster. I prefer the TSX or the North Fork these days. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Thansk MR, so far the 570g TSX's at 2100 fps have been very accurate in my rifle, and easy to shoot. I have handloads ready that should walk me up to and slightly over that 2300 fps line ... Next warm day in Colorado ... If they remain accurate and easy to shoot I intend to stay with them. If not, the question is, which is preferable a 570g TSX at 2100 fps or a 600g Woodleigh PP at 2100 fps? Thanks again, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I apologize MR, you've already answered this question for me, telling me the 570g TSX's would be fine at 2100 fps. I guess I'm really gettig old. Once again sorry, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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To answer the question origanaly posed, I would expect one very dead buffalo! 465H&H | |||
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