The threads on Rick Jamison and Handloader made me think about the fact that we have as much expertise and experience here as the editorial boards of most of the gun rags. I have been doing some load development getting ready for a hunting trip to Tanzania. My work has resulted in some interesting observations that I'd thought I'd share. Why should you listen to me?



Although I have gotten old and cannot maintain the concentration (and getting into the sitting position) necessary to shoot competitively anymore, I am still a pretty good shot for an animal or two. I�ve reloaded for over 25 years, and have gotten pretty good at it (when I put the powder in.) I�ve raised my children and now have the time and money to play and the wisdom to limit it to hunting and guns. I keep good records and, to my wife�s mortification, save most of my targets either in books or on computer. I have taken over 45 African game animals from duiker to buffalo since 1996 on seven trips. But most importantly, I am my own man. I don�t have an editor (which may be a bad thing!), a publisher, or a sponsor. I buy all my rifles, equipment, ammo, components at the best price I can get from Graf, Midway, Midsouth, and Natchez, and I have paid full price for every ticket to Africa and every hunt. I only talk about what I personally have done or experienced, and my only interest is sharing those experiences. Why? This is what distinguishes Mankind from the rest of the primates. And I�ve been around AR a while too. So for whatever it is worth, here are my observations and thoughts on rifles, cartridges, and bullets for big game hunting, together with some helpful hints on how to hone your prep for that big hunt. The only thing it will cost you, is your time. (Print it out and take it with you to the john if you don�t have wireless. When you get finished reading it, you�ll be equipped.)



Although I believe hunting in Africa is one of the best buys in sports, it isn't cheap. Your fixed costs, daily fees, airfare, lodging before and after the hunt, are equal to or exceed the trophy fees on most 10-day hunts unless you are hunting some really exotic plains game or dangerous game. As your trophies get more expensive, what I have to say becomes even more applicable. In Africa, if you shoot at and hit an animal, you pay the trophy fee whether it is DRT (Dead Right There) or runs off. If it runs off and you bag it after four hours of tracking, you�ve just lost a half-day of hunting time. If you cannot bring it to bag, your options are to pay for that animal and scratch it off your dance card or pay two fees. Anything but DRT is bad.



There are two things that insure DRT: a good bullet and good bullet placement. What you learn over time is that animals die for one of two reasons: they have a major hit on the central nervous system or the blood supply to the brain is stopped. The central nervous system is a small target; therefore, most of us aim at the heart-lung area of an animal. By and large, a hole in and a hole out causes more devastating results than just a hole going in, and it makes tracking easier too. You want a bullet that will get through all the muscle, bone and innards to the heart-lung area from any angle. I handload my bullets for plainsgame, and I use the most accurate premium bullet my rifle will shoot. By and large, Nosler Partition bullets have filled the bill for my 30's and 9.3mm. I know that there are other fine premium bullets, but Partitions are where I start my search. When I hunt dangerous game, I use Federal Premium, factory-loaded solids and soft points in my .375HH. I practice with Hornaday 300-grain round nose, softpoint reloads.



Bullet placement is dependent upon a good bullet launcher. I want a rifle that consistently shoots under a minute of angle (MOA), and your chances of getting a factory rifle that will shoot that well are slim. It happens, but if you have done it, you were lucky. Play the lottery. For us normal people, there are several choices. You can buy a factory rifle and accurize it yourself or pay a gunsmith to it for you (the gun-kit-method). Or you can buy a semi-custom rifle, or have a gunsmith build you a rifle from scratch. If you can "test drive" the rifle or know its pedigree, buying a used custom rifle is a good deal. Obviously, if you can get a really nice used rifle; you are a step ahead in paying to have it accurized. However you approach the matter, the most accurate rifle you can afford is worth every cent you spend on it, not as an investment, but in terms of the confidence it builds in you and the aggravation you avoid in load development.



Most good custom rifles are pricey. A Nichols� rifle is half the price of one of my trips to Africa and a long wait to boot. However, there are few of you here who have only one rifle or plan to limit yourself in those acquisitions. Plan to do it right from the start, and buy the best rifle you can afford. For non-dangerous game, accuracy is everything. For dangerous game, function and reliability become more important that accuracy principally because the ph is going to get you close. Trust me on this, a lot closer than you ever wanted to be. I like Mauser or Winchester 70 actions with control feed. This is a personal preference, but both are strong actions that handle gas well, and can be set up to be very accurate. Buy well and then add a trigger job; accurizing job, etc. as you can afford it.



Although they have a reputation for accuracy, I would avoid Remingtons as a project gun because they are not control feed and I don�t trust their extractor. Yeah, I know that you�ve stood them on their heads in a weightless environment and chamber rounds without a problem, but Mausers and M70�s are my personal preference. If you have a Remington and it shoots like a house afire, don�t sell it and buy a Mauser. Spend a little extra money on it and have a Sako style extractor installed and an after-market trigger. You�ll have a nice shooting rifle with which you are familiar and at a minimum of expense.



The rifles that I am working with right now are all Mausers. One is a 30-06 on a Mark X (English) action; one is a 300WinMag on the same type of action; and one is a 7mmRemMag on a VZ 24 Mauser action that started life as a Kimber. It is now, like the other two, pretty much a Walt Sherman custom Mauser. I am trying to work out which of these rifles I will be taking with me next year to Tanzania when we will be shooting everything from antelope to elephant. When making a trip like this, your choice of rifle can compliment the rifles carried by your hunting partner or duplicate one or more of them. If you select a rifle of the same caliber, you can share ammo. On the other hand, if you take rifles of different calibers, you can be more specialized in your choices. Of course you can have both by sharing a medium caliber and carrying a different light rifle and a different heavy rifle. It is good to bring the same makes of rifles on your hunt, and by all means practice as much as you can with your hunting partner�s rifle. You don�t want to be fumbling around figuring out the controls of a rifle right in the middle of a lion charge. Size and weight also are considerations in rifle selection. A Sendero style rifle with a very long barrel and extra weight isn�t what you want on a walking hunt in Tanzania or in a leopard blind. My brother�s 7mmRemMag is like his American Express Card. He won�t leave home without it. Therefore, my current search is for a light or medium-light rifle to round out the selection.



We've seen the post here from persons dreaming about Africa or finally going, and they want to know whether to buy a 404, 416 or 458. Most of the animals I've taken in Africa are the size of whitetail deer or smaller. The larger antelopes are the size of our elk. All of them are tough, but a well-placed premium bullet from anything from a .270Win on up will take care of business with any of them. Many of the South African's I know like and shoot the .243Win. Our 30-06 is big medicine for most of Afrikaners, and perfectly adequate for anything you'll be shooting except big dangerous game and possibly Eland. If I were getting one custom gun to hunt principally in Africa, I�d consider something that would handle the odd lion or leopard that might cross your path in some countries while you are hunting something else. Now I know that phs would almost rather be eaten themselves rather than take an unintended lion, but it is nice to know that your antelope gun is sufficient for lion if called upon. Therefore, the 30-06 would be my bottom line caliber, and that is not to damn it with faint praise, as you will see from my later remarks. Such a rifle should put the premium on accuracy, lightness, easy of handling, and be capable of taking light game out to 300 yards, and almost anything else out to 100 yards. A dangerous game rifle has a different set of criteria and I�ll address them another time.



The rifles that I have been working with meet the criteria mentioned: they are enough rifle for the chance encounter with big cats, very accurate, and capable of shooting light game out to 300 yards. As mentioned, Walt Sherman built two of them, and re-built the third one. Walt builds extremely accurate bolt rifles at prices a working man can afford. Depending upon how they are set up, Walt�s rifles run around $2,000 to $3,000. He won�t turn one loose unless it will shoot under an inch. And he will get the job finished this year. Regardless of who does the work, I�d stick with standard (30-06) or magnum (300HH) length cartridges in the Mauser because the Mauser accepts these with the least tinkering and, therefore, should be more reliable. Same for the M70 except I�d stick with the family of case in which the rifle was originally made. I would avoid the newer short, fat actions for a project rifle and would not select one of these new marvels as the caliber for my basic hunting rifle.



My load for the 30-06 shoots a 180grain Nosler Partition 2775-2780fps. It is incredibly accurate shooting sub-MOA groups at 200 yards with my hunting load. My load for the 7mmRemMag is a 175grain MagPoint (Nosler doesn't make a 175grain bullet) at roughly 2800fps. It shoots groups a little under one inch at 100 yards. Guess what? The 30-06 and 7mmRemMag are ballistically equal in terms of energy and reach. Lest you think that I am �underloading� the 7mmRemMag, both Lyman and Sierra indicate this is tops for most of the available powders, and factory 175-grain is loaded to 2850fps. The recoil for the 7mmRemMag is slightly greater because the powder charge is about one-third greater than the -06. However, an antelope will never know the difference between getting hit with the 175 or 180 bullet.



The 300 WinMag is one I picked up for my brother, and for which I have been working up loads. It also will shoot groups just under an inch at 100 yards. When compared with the .30 Magnums (I shoot a 30-338,) the 30-06 gives up roughly 150-200 fps to the magnums with 180 grain bullets. That translates to about a five-inch difference in bullet drop at 400 yards. However, it has been my experience that phs will not let you take a shot at game at ranges over 300 yards, and certainly not at any dangerous or high-dollar value animals because it is not safe with dangerous game and it is not good business with the expensive ones. They might let you take a flyer at an antelope if it is really spooky and they don't feel that they can get closer. If that happens, reach into your pocket and pull out a 165-grain bullet if you are shooting an -06. It will shoot 2950 fps and match the curve of the 180-grain bullet in your magnum. An antelope will never know the difference between being drilled by a 165-grain bullet instead of a 180-grain bullet. In fact, the 165-grain Ballistic Tip is more explosive and give you better expansion at the lower speeds at long range. Cartridge selection in Africa ultimately boils down to how far are you going to be shooting and what are you going to be shooting at.



Let�s talk scopes a minute. We are really fortunate because we have the finest glass at the best prices we�ve ever had. There is no substitute for a good scope; however, realistically, you would be better off with a Weaver Grand Slam at $250 on a accurized rifle than a Zeiss for $1200 on a factory rifle. This is particularly true in Africa because, with the exception of Leopard hunting, most of hunts are conducted in good light in fairly warm, dry weather. About half my rifles wear Leupold scopes and the other half wears Classic Weavers, and there isn�t a great deal of difference between them. The Grand Slam models are noticeably better than the Classics and compare favorably with the Leupold VX III�s which cost about three times more. Use the difference money to get your rifle set up. Keep the scope on four-power or six-power if it is a variable. Get use to how big a target looks through it. How much of the reticle does 12 inches subtend at 100 yards, 200 yards and 300 yards. If you know this, and have some idea of how big the animal is, you can range it.



If you are going to hunt Africa, you need a couple of reference books. As just mentioned, you need to know the sizes of the animals you will be hunting. I make up a list of the animals and their body sizes, back to belly and front to rear. You can estimate this information from most good field guides. It will tell you how tall a mature animal is, and you can guestimate how much is leg, body and neck. You also need a copy of The Perfect Shot. Get the big book and Xerox copies of all the animals you may get a chance to shoot. This will make you a hit with your fellow hunters on the flight over, and your ph with whom you can leave the copies. The African approach to bullet placement does not worry about meat damage to trophy animals. The object is to drop them as quickly as possible, DRT again. Knowing the �sweet spots� and understanding your rounds' ballistic curve are basic to DRT. Using the field guide and The Perfect Shot, you can make a target card for each animal you are hunting, and, if you know how much reticle 12 inches subtends, you can generate pictures of your sight picture for that animal at 100, 200, and 300 yards. Although you won�t shoot a lot of animals over 300 yards, you also won�t shoot a lot of animals under 200 yards. A zero that never goes more than three inches above or below the line of sight will hold you in good stead. Zero will be about 230 yards, and you will be on out to 275 yards. At 300 yards, the bullet will be about six inches below line of sight. This is one of the reasons it is said that you never hold outside the animal; however, if it is a small antelope (Springbok) at 325 yards, you will shoot under it if you aim one-third up or two-thirds down the body. Been there, done that. You won�t hit anything meaningful at 300 yards.



You bag your limit the same way you get to Carnegie Hall: Practice! You can start your practice as you work up your loads. It is OK to shoot from a rest, but not a bench rest. Put down a box and put a pad on top of the box and your front hand on the pad. Brace you elbows well. This is the seated �prone.� This gives you practice from a seated rest; however, you need to try field position shooting: off-hand at 100 and 200 yards, kneeling at 200, and seated, prone and seated braced against a vertical brace at 300 yards. Figure out what works for you. Try shooting sticks and get use to them. If you are unable to practice at 200, 300 and 400 yards, shoot reduced size targets. Shoot at objects of known height like a man-sized pistol silhouette turned on its side. This is a good approximation of an antelope. Put an orange marker on the �sweet spot� at first, and try to shoot the mark. You should use one-inch stickers at 100 yards, two-inch stickers at 200 yards and three-inch stickers at 300 yards. The bottom duplex makes a handy sight. Know at what range you hit on the target using it as your "pipper." Allow for distance and wind, and shoot for the mark just like it was the rosette on a leopard. And do it all quickly. If your shot is not in the sticker, assess why you missed and have another go at it. These drills need to be practiced at least once a month for at least six months before your hunt. When at home, get a .22 and some of the quiet Aguila bullets powered with primers only. Try shooting five rounds a day off-hand at a safe target in your backyard or garage. If you cannot make your centerfire practice, increase the .22 practice.



The mountain reedbuck above was shot across a draw at maybe 250 yards. Note how far back the bullet struck him. Well, that was the second shot. The first struck him in the rear leg, and I was aiming for the boiler room. The wind was really blowing that day, and straight up the draw which seems to intensify it. Just before you fire, think wind; I didn't! African can be incredibly windy. I�ve seen the snow blowing absolutely horizontally. A breeze like that can move a bullet a long way in 300 yards. I keep wind doping simple. I compute windage in 10-mile-per-hour increments at 90 degrees and 45 degrees out to 400 yards. You can read this off of most ballistic programs, but if the wind is behind or directly into your face, it also has an effect. You have to develop this information on your own. I recently was at the range on a day when the wind would blow a leather rifle case open and off a bench. I reckon it was gusting 20-25 mph. While shooting, it swung from right in my face to right at my back. This caused nearly a four-inch rise in my group. While using reduced size targets can compensate for not having a longer range and indicate relative wind movement in relationship to the target; it does not actually reproduce the movement of the bullet at the reduced range.



When you think that you�ve gotten good at shooting silhouettes with the sweet spots marked, starting shooting at the silhouettes without the orange dots. Try and hit the 10 ring on the target without a clear reference point. Again, consider distance, bullet drop and windage. And don�t always go when conditions are nice. Try rainy days and windy days. If you are hitting the 10 ring consistently, you are ready for some fun. All work and no play make Jack a dull boy. Take 20-ounce drink bottles, one-liter drink bottles, and gallon milk bottles with you to your range. Filled them with water and put them up at 100, 200 and 300 yards respectively, laying the smaller bottles down with the bottoms toward you. Have a competition with one of your friends shooting at the same bottle. Standing unsupported or on sticks at 100; seated braced at 200; and prone at 300 yards. This puts a little pressure on you.



In conclusion, at the high cost of hunting today, skimping on a good rifle and good ammo makes no sense. The gun rags aren�t going to tell you this, but you probably are not going to find a MOA rifle out of the box at your local sporting good store. Figure out where you�ll be hunting for the next five years and what you�ll be hunting for, and get the best rifle you can afford. You can get a good rifle well set up for the retail costs of two factory rifles. For the price of a super scope and factory rifle, you can have a very good scope and an accurized rifle. Remember that accuracy counts for the small or thin- skinned game and reliability counts for the dangerous game. With a little effort and planning, you can have both. There is no substitute for practice. It is where you learn what you and your rifle are capable of. There is no shame in telling your ph, �I don�t feel comfortable with this shot.� On the other hand, you are better off taking the first available shot and doing it swiftly than having to chase the animal and take the shot after you are winded, excited, and less steady. This is also the reason you want to kill it DRT because you have the advantage the first shot. You are relatively calm; have time to get a good position; and have time to consider the range, shot placement, and wind. Thereafter, you give up some if not all those advantages. Whether you are headed out west for a elk hunt or to RSA for a plains game hunt, practice with a good rifle and good bullet under realistic conditions is the best way to put your elk or impala DRT.



Believe it or not, this took about four nights to write, and I�d appreciate your feed back. If it warrants, I�d come back and discuss dangerous game rifles and dangerous game hunting, although there may be some of our members who have done more of that than I, or something else.



Ku-dude

Darn good reading.
Thanks

Ku-dude, that was one great article! You put a ton of effort into it, you spoke from the heart, and you called the game as you see it. Who could ask for more? I'm going to print a copy and save it for future reference.......

AD

Excellent reading Ku-Dude, I very much liked your results-oriented approach to hunting without any of the emotional appendages a lot of us tend to lend to our favorite rifles, binos, bullets, etc. well done. jorge

nice primer, ku-dude.

as a professional eitor, i would say you mostly need to work on your lede. never start a piece with an apology for your writing skills, whether the apology is merited or not; just get down to bidness.

i like this minimalist, practical approach to hunting in africa (not that i'll ever get to go). you could go from rifles to clothing, footwear, travel, confirmation with PHs - all with the same, practical approach as your theme. this is something i much appreciate as a practical, minimalist (cheap, if you will ) whitetail hunter.

four of the best ledes ever written were:
"Call me Ishmael." (Moby Dick)
"The last camel died at noon." (The Key to Rebecca)
"This quiet town died in its sleep last night." (from a long-ago newspaper story about a tornado; i don't know who wrote it)
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." (guess where)

you go get 'em.

Ku-dude,

Quote:

---

realistically, you would be better off with a Weaver Grand Slam at $250 on a accurized rifle than a Zeiss for $1200 on a factory rifle.

---

Great article but I have to dissagree slightly with the above statement.

Potentially, optics are the most unreliable part of the rifle/scope set up.



Therefore, I would rather have an ultra reliable (costly?) scope on a modest 1.5moa factory rifle, than a relatively cheap optic on a full blown customised rifle. And lets not forget about decent mounts too!



Of course what we each think of as "decent equipment" is what drives about 90% of these discussions!



Regards,



Pete

Ku-dude,
Excellent well written article and point on. I read alot of gun writers who take the opposite view of what to spend the most money on-glass or gun. They feel you can't hit if you can't see em. Actually, you can't hit em if you can't hit em and your gun isn't a shooter! You should take up writing, you obviously have more field experience than most plying this trade now. Good job and worth your effort.

You're right, you won't find an article like that in a gun rag, too bad. No one ever write about finding bargains in used custom guns or paying a gunsmith to accurize a factory gun, gunsmiths don't have advertising budgets.

Great post.......you did good in my eyes.

Thank you very much for sharing. This is definitely going into my favorites. I will be looking forward to you next book on DG rifles and hunting.


Fred

Very good post! I appreciate the time and thought you invested in this. I find that this type of advice is more valuable for me than the usual "Newest, greatest cartridge or rifle" article. Your article reminded me of some of the late Finn Aagaard's writing, which had much of the same type of advice.
Mark

Great work, I'm going to e-mail it to some of my friends. I agree with you on scopes; I'm going to go with a Leupold, Burris, or Weaver in the 1.5x6 range. However, as the scope is the most likely to fail, I'm going to use QD Talley or Leupold rings and carry a spare, sighted-in 4x Leupold as a backup, it can even be carried in a day pack. As far as sighting in, Jeff Cooper's 200 zero rule seems as practical as anything. One is quite naturally going to hold a tad high at long ranges anyway. Alway "hold on hair".

Ku-Dude,

Outstanding article, dude! (as some say around here )

I think perfect practice with a hunting rifle makes perfect, so I would add that it is best to go to one of the rifle schools like Gunsite and learn what perfect is.

jim dodd

Excellent post - your passing on this type of information is what makes this board so valuable.
I would slightly disagree with you over the issue of scopes, I can accept a little less accuracy for a little better vision. The difference between our view is small, however. I believe that you are better served by buying a less expensive gun, getting a trigger job, if necessary bedding the barrel, and putting more money into your scope. Y ou can't hit what you can't see. Leupold, however, fits my definition of a quality scope. I prefer the high end euopean tubes, especially schmidt & Bender, but reccommend Leupold to most of my friends as I feel that it's an excellent value for the money. I also feel that "practice, we're talkin practice - Allen Iverson" is critical, and your 22 lr is an excellent practice tool.
Keep the information comming, I understand how much effort it takes, but it is well worth it.

Ku-dude,

I personally don't have the same thoughts on everything you said but most of us don't agree with everything the professional gun scribes write either. Your article is as well written and perhaps better thought out than much of the stuff written by the "Experts". Thanks for a good read.

BTW I have 66# 7MM 175gr. NP's if you would like them.

Regards,

Mark

Ku-dude,

Excellent article. Since you asked for feedback, I only have a couple of points:

1) Leupold VXIII's are not three times the cost of Weaver Grand Slams. Just check the price from Graf's (my favorite supplier, others may be cheaper)

Grand Slam 1.5x5x32 Matte $287.99
Leupold VXIII 1.5x5x20 or the 1.75x6x32 matte both $399.99

Your point however, is well taken, the Weaver is a excellent and cheaper subsitute for a Leupold, just not 3 times cheaper.

2) Nosler does indeed make a 175 grain .284-7mm Partition, Nosler #35645.

Small points of course, but by keeping the little things right, the overall credibilty of your article is much stronger.

Nice job,

Bob

I went on my first hunt to RSA last year. I learned many of your lessons - the DRT is the key thing. We shot the smaller plains game with .243, .270 and .280, having used those calibers in Tx and Wyo. WE did not kill anything larger than Impala DRT, most ran a distance into thick stuff. My son made a perfect heart shot on a Kudu at 200yds with the .243, and it ran 100 yds into the thickest stuff I ever dealt with. (used 100gr. Nosler partition, thank goodness). We learned to use shooting sticks - much better than bi-pods.

We are headed back in 2005 to hunt in Mozambique and RSA and are taking .300 win mag and .375 H&H (on M70 actions, custom barrels and triggers) to get the accuracy you mentioned. Will use Noslers as well.

What you said matched what the locals told us - us M70 type action, use the most accurate rifle you can shoot, use Noslers or A Frames, use Leupold or Swaro scopes, and practice. Thanks for your post.

Kudos to Ku-dude excellent article...There was alot of common sense there...Bottom line know how to shoot by practice...And all will be fine...

Mike Podwika
Mayor
Wyoming, Pa.

Ku-dude,
Like many of the previous responders, I agree with most everything in your post. Excellent weapons topped with excellent optics, excellent bullets appropriately sized and well placed, dilligent practice and a burning desire to succeed equal excellent results.
I look forward to your upcoming post regarding DGR and DG hunting.
Thanks for sharing your experience and insight in such a well thought out and straight forward manner.
Best of luck in your future hunts!
Jeff

great article. will print and save.How about saveing on top like Terry's packing list?
wayne

Ku-dude,

One hell of a good read! Posts like yours are the reason I enjoy the AR forums so much.
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us. I look foward to Part II.

Regards,
Dave

Ku-Dude-

EXCELLENT article! AS much as I enjoy reading all the popular gun mags., it is always obvious to me that, month-in and month-out, no matter what mag it is, I am reading the same old Sh_t, said in a different way. Add to that the fact that, by nature of my interest, I already knew or had experienced much of what I am reading, and it makes me wonder why the hell I buy the darn things!

While I did not agree with 100% of what you said, you certainly have very good reasons for your views, and express them in a convincing manner that leaves readers' minds open to new ways of thinking. I much preferred the distilled essence of subject matter, gleaned from experience and presented with no ulterior motivation.

You will probably not find many such articles in our popular journals. You did not sell anything for anyone. However, you hit the nail on the head when you spoke of the collective experience on this forum. Sure makes for some good advice at times, doesn't it?

THANKS...
Sonny

Good read but I prefer bigger calibers for the larger stuff, but I don't disagree with you at all, I just want the edge on Eland, Gemsbok and Kudu and of course the big cats...

That said, if I had to walk from one end of Africa to the other, a 30-06 with 220 gr. Noslers and a cigar box full of 220 gr. solids would suit me fine....

I think everyone evolves, for the better usually, depending, of course, upon their experiences. I would agree with most of what you have posted but must be tempered as being only based upon what experience you have acquired to date. For example, every shot on every different antelope is the same and it boggles my mind as to the usefullness of The Perfect Shot. Also, for example, the 30-06 may cut it in your experiences, but the next time it may not.



The hunting of dangerous game is a much more complicated issue than antelope. I would venture more cautiously into any attempts to make generalities in this area. Here you have much stricter standards, and one might ask themselves "will my opinions make the cut or provide mild amusement to the old hands at hunting dangerous game?"

Kudude, Great atricle. I have not forgotten that I owe you one. I hope to find a way to repay the debt. I look foreward to the DG and DGR articles.
"D" Hunter