This is an extract from a notable and vocal anti hunter who haunts social media sites. This lady however has first hand experience of wild Africa once the hunters have abandoned the field. At the end of her statement she gives reference to a photo which I have omitted.


I feel I need to make an appeal to the anti-hunting members of this forum. I know I may be crucified by both sides of the debate for what I am about to say, and it has actually been said many times on this forum before, but often in anger and with personal insults attached, so may not have been taken to heart…. I’m going to try and say it now with no anger. With emotion yes, because humans are emotional animals after all, but I’ll try keep the emotion to a minimum. I think that the anti-hunting members of this forum, and anti-hunting advocates elsewhere need to be very careful, and think very deeply before calling for the immediate and total ban on hunting in Africa, or signing petitions that call for the immediate end to hunting and trophy imports etc. etc. This is a very dangerous path to follow, for Africa and other protected areas. Now I hate trophy hunting. It sickens me to my very core! There I’ve laid my soul bare and put that down on the table right from the start. It would give me no greater pleasure than to know that trophy hunting was a thing of the past.

BUT (and there had to be a but) I have been involved in conservation in some way shape or form, my entire working life and I cannot deny, and neither should anyone else deny that hunting protects millions of hectares of habitat across Africa (let’s keep it to Africa for this discussion because that’s what I know best). Without hunting, these millions of hectares would be invaded by people with cattle, or poachers or snares or goats or all of the above. This is reality. Human populations everywhere in Africa are growing at an unprecedented rate and are clamouring for access to the wilderness and its resources. That is a fact that no-one can dispute.

Now I am the first to draw attention to the fact that ecotourism offers the same protection of habitat. The hunters are quick to try and poo-poo ecotourism, but just as hunting creates buffer areas around national parks and formally protected areas in many countries, so does ecotourism, often in the form of private photographic concessions on the boundaries of national parks. But at this stage of the game, ecotourism is not enough to protect the land that is currently under hunting. Botswana is a case in point, and as much as I celebrated with all the rest of the anti- hunting fraternity when Bots ended hunting, the stories coming out of Bots are of a huge concern to me. I naively thought there was a better, more detailed plan in place to protect the hunting concessions. I know that certain concessions have seen major success in converting to ecotourism (Great Plains) and my heart sings at this success, but I have also heard the stories, of the massive concessions that have not been taken up by ecotourism and are now facing the full pressure of impoverished humanity and all the other problems that impoverished humanity brings in its wake, poaching, cows, goats, snares etc. etc. I have heard these stories from hunters, and recently sat down with an ecotourism operator in Botswana, who is not involved in hunting at all, but who was saying exactly the same things.

So, is the banning of hunting in Botswana, the big success story that it has been made out to be by some? In certain areas the answer is yes, but on the whole, I think, sadly that the answer has to be no. I would like to see the figures in terms of the number of hectares of hunting concessions that have been successfully converted to eco-tourism and the number of hectares of previous hunting concessions that are languishing in no man’s land, with no anti-poaching and no-one fighting for the habitat to remain intact. I have looked for reliable sources for these figures, but have found nothing. If anyone has a reliable unbiased source that they could share, then please let me know. I think Botswana had good intentions, but I think they did things far too quickly. And now many marginal habitats and the species that depend on that habitat seem to be paying a heavy price…

So, what stops me from calling for the immediate ban on all hunting. It’s fear. Fear for what would happen to the millions of hectares of habitat that is currently protected by hunting. I hate saying “protected by hunting”. It makes the bile rise to my throat, but it is true. I wrote about this before, a number of years ago, after the whole “Melissa Bachman” lion hunting furore. And although my basic ideas haven’t changed, I have stirred a lot more reality into the idea pot since then. What I said then was way too idealistic. And I’m sure there will be those of you on this forum who will accuse me still of being too idealistic.

So instead of calling for all these hunting bans and spouting anti-hunting rhetoric at the drop of a hat and alienating those that we actually need to work with to solve this problem… those of us that would truly like to see things change in Africa should be working very hard to come up with alternatives that can take the place of hunting. We should be engaging respectfully with hunters who will listen, to understand what really draws them to Africa to kill leopards and lions and elephants. We should be talking to them about ideas, some of which have been raised on this forum before, like learning traditional survival and tracking skills from local San in Namibia, South Africa and Botswana, and other tribes elsewhere. Like survival courses, Bear Grylls style, where the predators and other dangerous game are present and hardships of the landscape are authentic, and the “African experience” raw and thrilling with adrenaline rushes to match hunting. We should be putting our heads together, respectfully to understand each-other better.

We should be supporting initiatives that look at educating Africans about the dangers of population explosions. We should be supporting initiatives that reward smaller families and reward education. We should be supporting initiatives that empower woman in these rural communities, because it has been proven that where women are downtrodden, and treated as lesser beings to men, birth-rates are much higher. Educate woman and give them a means to be self-sufficient, and the birth-rates in these areas drops. Jane Goodall’s “Roots and Shoots” programme in Tanzania, is one programme that focuses its attention on the above issue.

Seeing only the “evil” in hunting and condemning it and working hard to shut it down as quickly as possible, is not going to be healthy for Africa. Working for other solutions, is long term, and in the mean time we should be working with and acknowledging those hunting operators that ARE doing things ethically and are open to talk to those of us with different opinions to them. It does us no favours to alienate them. And YES, we should be fighting tooth and nail to shut down the unethical operators. Those who only care about profit and not conservation, and bend and break the law at the drop of a hat. And we should be fighting the laws that are often put in place, that actually do nothing for the conservation of a species. That should be our mission. Weed out the monsters who are really doing massive harm to our animal populations through unethical and illegal practices, and engage with those who operate ethically towards a better future for Africa, its Wild Places and its Wild Creatures.

The leopard picture I have attached to this post is a picture of my soul mate. She taught me more about life than most humans that I know combined. I had the privilege of following her life for 12 years in the wild. She died just short of her 18th birthday and if a hunter had shot her I would personally have taken my .458 rifle and shot her killer myself. That is how much I loved her. So do I believe individual animals lives matter a whole damn lot, hell yes I do!! But at this stage of the game, and until things change a lot in Africa, the habitat that many members of her species depend upon is kept wild because of hunting.....

The core of this message is identical to that in the recent DSC clip on habitat loss. The pity is that while many of those on both sides can agree on the answer . . . habitat preservation . . . they find it impossible to work together. One would hope that a way could be found for hunters and non-hunters that believe that hunting plays a critical role in habitat preservation to coordinate messaging while acknowledging that they agree to disagree on the morality of hunting. That to me is where SCI and DSC should be spending their time, trying to find a way forward to work with scientists and ladies like the woman that made these comments to communicate a message that whether you agree or disagree with hunting, it plays a critical role in conservation. For hunters to sing that song by themselves, you have to worry that their self interest will make it too easy to dismiss their credibility. By having ladies like the woman that made the comments above, the producers of the movie Trophy, scientists like Packer and others, helping with the message its receptivity in the general public goes up exponentially.

Very interesting.

While interesting to read, it is almost worthless without a link to the original and the author's name.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
While interesting to read, it is almost worthless without a link to the original and the author's name.

Here you go https://web.facebook.com/groups/922313081208889/

And of note is her differentiation between ethical and unethical operators, and not legal and illegal operators. If anyone reads this and sees even a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel for the "Africa Question," this point should not be missed.

That's an interesting and worthwhile post. I completely agree with Mike's comments. We should all encourage DSC and SCI, even the NRA, to engage those on the other side who have open minds and are willing to seek common ground we can agree upon.

Andrew, thanks for providing a link to whoever wrote that post you copied.

Baxter makes a valid point too.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The core of this message is identical to that in the recent DSC clip on habitat loss. The pity is that while many of those on both sides can agree on the answer . . . habitat preservation . . . they find it impossible to work together. One would hope that a way could be found for hunters and non-hunters that believe that hunting plays a critical role in habitat preservation to coordinate messaging while acknowledging that they agree to disagree on the morality of hunting. That to me is where SCI and DSC should be spending their time, trying to find a way forward to work with scientists and ladies like the woman that made these comments to communicate a message that whether you agree or disagree with hunting, it plays a critical role in conservation. For hunters to sing that song by themselves, you have to worry that their self interest will make it too easy to dismiss their credibility. By having ladies like the woman that made the comments above, the producers of the movie Trophy, scientists like Packer and others, helping with the message its receptivity in the general public goes up exponentially.

That was the core mission of the Lion Conservation Task Force, Inc.

While we failed to bring SCI to the table on this subject...DSC was already there and willing to collaborate...and did.

Hopefully, our new coalition...the African Wildlife Conservation Coalition...will continue this mission and hopefully convert SCI to be willing to engage with these types for the overall good of African Wildlife.

At least some of the other side gets it, or are starting to.

What she and other fail to realize is that the majority of these hunting areas in Africa hold little "sex appeal" for the eco/photo tourist. They simply do not want to spend time in areas with perhaps monotonous landscapes or less that "Hollywood" carrying capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
What she and other fail to realize is that the majority of these hunting areas in Africa hold little "sex appeal" for the eco/photo tourist. They simply do not want to spend time in areas with perhaps monotonous landscapes or less that "Hollywood" carrying capacity.

100% true.just look how they are advertised.

The very simple and straightforward question to ask is:

If eco-tourism is such a great alternative, why aren't people flocking to do it?

The simple answer is - because they aren't willing to pay for it out of their own pocket, like hunters do.

Here's a quote from one of the other people posting:

"Funding should come from Governments, a Big Business Environmental Tax, International Aid Funding, high end Tour Operators, the good grass roots NGO’s, philanthropists etc."

In other words - other people's money!!! That's the same solution the left always comes up with and it's the reason why so many of their policies fail!

If it pays, it stays.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by crane:
What she and other fail to realize is that the majority of these hunting areas in Africa hold little "sex appeal" for the eco/photo tourist. They simply do not want to spend time in areas with perhaps monotonous landscapes or less that "Hollywood" carrying capacity.

100% true.just look how they are advertised.

I believe she has realized that very much that is part of the stiry about Botswana. I do agree that most people dont.

WoW! She certainly had an "I saw the light" moment!

I am very glad to know that there are those like her out there.


.

In my business I have gotten a lot of hate mail and been called every thing in the book..Ive always taken the time to explain what we as hunters do for wildlife, how license money is spent, how much money is donated by Safari companies to the preservation of wildlife by furnishing money to game depts. in Africa...and on an on..All my replies have met with apologies, or at least intelligent conversation and left everyone with a different point of view. Its amazing in that so few have ever had the other side of the story explained to them, and quite a number apologized for their kids email to Atkinson Hunting !! others were gratefull that I took time out of my job to even explain to their kid and said I changed his or her mind...Lets all take time to explain our side of the story in an intelligent manor..Will it work, who knows but it sure can't hurt. Ive never had to call one of these antis a dumb stupid SOB, YET!

It is amazing how many humans actually begin to understand things after they actually open their eyes and minds and witness the situation First Hand, instead of just buying into the rhetoric of other uninformed individuals.

Her attitude and approach are refreshing, and we certainly can work with someone like that, but we must always be mindful that her approach is only temporary, and her ultimate goal is to end hunting and replace the money that secures habitat with some other form of activity.

I joined the group and have entered into some positive conversations. I refused to enter into a mudslinging battle. The person attempting to start it erased all of her posts.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
While interesting to read, it is almost worthless without a link to the original and the author's name.

Here you go https://web.facebook.com/groups/922313081208889/

Thanks!

Andrew: thank you for posting this.
Larry: Thanks for the update.

I was thinking while reading it. IF she presented this statement in person to a HSUS convention she'd never be allowed to leave.

George

I think that this proves there are many on the fence and they can be swayed to acknowledge the benefits of our sport in Africa.

The general opinion from the anti hunting fraternity is they will accept sustainability if scientifically proven. They understand the ramifications of a void if we hunters were to be removed. I am also pretty sure they themselves are not that convinced that eco tourism is the end all be all.

But what they absolutely loath is firstly canned Lion and secondly us lot sitting behind bleeding dead animals especially big game which they consider 'endangered'. However ironically it has been pointed out it is themselves who copy, paste and distribute such images.

Whilst I don't really want to pamper to these people we would do well to further prove sustainability and bring African communities to the stage. Education and awareness are also important factors.

The extreme and rabid anti hunters seem to be loosing credibility with their rants and foul language.

I regard it as just wonderfl that an anti-hunter can have such a clear insight into the value of trophy hunting in the larger conservation of habitat picture. Having said that, and reflecting on it, I really wish to improve my own limited knowledge of how to reply or react to the extremely intellegent alternative to trophy hunting so often proposed by the anti-hunting faction: "Eco-tourism is a non-killing method of generating the same income from a hunting area as that is generated by trophy hunting. I, for one, would really appreciate a reference to a good source of data and arguments, and in particular verifyable facts, about the income and problems associated with eco-tourism that is so often proposed as a non-violent alternative to actually killing animals in a present trophy hunting area.

quote:

The general opinion from the anti hunting fraternity is they will accept sustainability if scientifically proven.

Bingo

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I think that this proves there are many on the fence and they can be swayed to acknowledge the benefits of our sport in Africa.

The general opinion from the anti hunting fraternity is they will accept sustainability if scientifically proven. They understand the ramifications of a void if we hunters were to be removed. I am also pretty sure they themselves are not that convinced that eco tourism is the end all be all.

But what they absolutely loath is firstly canned Lion and secondly us lot sitting behind bleeding dead animals especially big game which they consider 'endangered'. However ironically it has been pointed out it is themselves who copy, paste and distribute such images.

Whilst I don't really want to pamper to these people we would do well to further prove sustainability and bring African communities to the stage. Education and awareness are also important factors.

The extreme and rabid anti hunters seem to be loosing credibility with their rants and foul language.

That is correct and we the let the rabid ARAs rant and actually continue to work for better policies and weed out the bad elements

For example the what Dr. Easter and the gang did with Lions I believe was positive in that world even though they are discussing the age of that aswell.

Hunting Dugga Boys (or any animals) past their prime with sustainable quotas etc. That will be positives for the average Joe and even the reasonable antis.

Remember, there are a lot of antis that actually are against trophy hunting of the Disney animals, they can beleivee in hunting for the pot etc. If they are told to F..K off by enough hunters, they will go rabid. If we engage and explain, stuff like this happens

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Ferrall:
Her attitude and approach are refreshing, and we certainly can work with someone like that, but we must always be mindful that her approach is only temporary, and her ultimate goal is to end hunting and replace the money that secures habitat with some other form of activity.

It`s true that she wants hunting to stop, but the most important stuff is that she is true to what works to preserve habitat even though she hates trophy hunting. She is a someone in the know, she has worked in multiple African countries, sometimes side by side hunter/outfitters. So an important voice on that side.

The admission that the efforts of the anti hunting folks is simply not working, despite the funding and good intentions is really important. Combine an ethical outfitter with a result that is not attainable by the anti-hunting fraternity snd you make a better-than-good case for the continuance of hunting.

And bear in mind, “turning” a hunting block into an “eco” block seems to mean overlaying at least some form of infrastructure. Hunting would seem to be preferable in these areas as it leaves the wild more wild, which I would think benefit the animals much more in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I think that this proves there are many on the fence and they can be swayed to acknowledge the benefits of our sport in Africa.

The general opinion from the anti hunting fraternity is they will accept sustainability if scientifically proven. They understand the ramifications of a void if we hunters were to be removed. I am also pretty sure they themselves are not that convinced that eco tourism is the end all be all.

But what they absolutely loath is firstly canned Lion and secondly us lot sitting behind bleeding dead animals especially big game which they consider 'endangered'. However ironically it has been pointed out it is themselves who copy, paste and distribute such images.

Whilst I don't really want to pamper to these people we would do well to further prove sustainability and bring African communities to the stage. Education and awareness are also important factors.

The extreme and rabid anti hunters seem to be loosing credibility with their rants and foul language.

Yup. It was interesting to note that one who attempted to engage me with a rant yesterday took her posts down after posing a couple of simple questions to her.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
The core of this message is identical to that in the recent DSC clip on habitat loss. The pity is that while many of those on both sides can agree on the answer . . . habitat preservation . . . they find it impossible to work together. One would hope that a way could be found for hunters and non-hunters that believe that hunting plays a critical role in habitat preservation to coordinate messaging while acknowledging that they agree to disagree on the morality of hunting. That to me is where SCI and DSC should be spending their time, trying to find a way forward to work with scientists and ladies like the woman that made these comments to communicate a message that whether you agree or disagree with hunting, it plays a critical role in conservation. For hunters to sing that song by themselves, you have to worry that their self interest will make it too easy to dismiss their credibility. By having ladies like the woman that made the comments above, the producers of the movie Trophy, scientists like Packer and others, helping with the message its receptivity in the general public goes up exponentially.

Mike has hit the nail on the head with his comments. We need to be engaging with people on the other side who realize that loss of habitat and human encroachment are the biggest issues facing wildlife in Africa.

I would like to thank Larry and Andrew for posting on the Facebook page and representing us. We simply cannot just dialogue with other hunters.

"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts".

We need more proof than just this one person saying what sounds like music to our ears.

What kind of reaction did her open-minded thoughts produce from her crowd - is she a force within the ranks or just a gal that has spent time in the field and shoots a .458?

Its only when more people like her air their views in a similar manner and get a positive response from the multitude of haters that we can seriously consider some kind of workable dialogue.

Habitat loss is nothing new - it actually kicked off in earnest some 20 years ago and has progressively reached critical levels, to the point where realization has finally struck home, albeit rather late!

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts".

We need more proof than just this one person saying what sounds like music to our ears.

What kind of reaction did her open-minded thoughts produce from her crowd - is she a force within the ranks or just a gal that has spent time in the field and shoots a .458?

Its only when more people like her air their views in a similar manner and get a positive response from the multitude of haters that we can seriously consider some kind of workable dialogue.

Habitat loss is nothing new - it actually kicked off in earnest some 20 years ago and has progressively reached critical levels, to the point where realization has finally struck home, albeit rather late!

I wondered why she had a 458 if every animal life was paramount. Dunno...

it is interesting that they know the post in question is being posted on hunting websites.

Wild leopards live to 18?

Shocks me.

Ski+3
Kalispell, MT

There are clearly some that one cannot have a rational discussion with.

quote:

I really wish to improve my own limited knowledge of how to reply or react to the extremely intellegent alternative to trophy hunting so often proposed by the anti-hunting faction: "Eco-tourism is a non-killing method of generating the same income from a hunting area as that is generated by trophy hunting. I, for one, would really appreciate a reference to a good source of data and arguments, and in particular verifyable facts, about the income and problems associated with eco-tourism that is so often proposed as a non-violent alternative to actually killing animals in a present trophy hunting area.

It is very important that we have these facts to make our case!

Eco tourism just does not pay the bills or employ the people hunting does.

But we need a resource to point out these facts.

.

Andrew,

Have you invited her to tour Royal Kafue, maybe observe a hunt?

Might be damned educational for someone willing to learn something.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Andrew,

Have you invited her to tour Royal Kafue, maybe observe a hunt?

Might be damned educational for someone willing to learn something.

Well, given her desire to prevent hunting but preserve habitat, she needs to pay exactly what a hunter would have paid, including trophy fees of selected animals, gun duties, tips; the whole bit. Her proposal is that eco can pay the way, the cost of keeping the property wild and the people employed doesn’t change. This is literally a “put your money where your mouth is” type of thing.

But I think an invitation would be an interesting step for sure.