quote:

ledvm, if I have mischaracterized you I sincerely apologize!

No worries...did not expect different.

But...I do want to preserve wild lions "at all costs"!

And...you know what...that means #1 preserving habitat.

Then...#2 reducing lion/human conflict. # 3 education and revenue to native Africans. #4 proper management of hunting off-take.

quote:

The silence is deafening

SCI

quote:

#1 preserving habitat.

Then...#2 reducing lion/human conflict. # 3 education and revenue to native Africans. #4 proper management of hunting off-take.

Damn, that says it all!
Peter.

quote:

#1 preserving habitat.

Then...#2 reducing lion/human conflict. # 3 education and revenue to native Africans. #4 proper management of hunting off-take.

Very logical!

However, any realist familliar with the goings-on in Africa knows that the only controllable entity when it comes to the management of Lions is to take it away from hunters. Face it, we are an easy target (no pun intended)as we have full accountability via quotas, fees, etc. We just saw the stats of 4000+ lions being killed by hunters - or so it says...How many were killed by poachers, poisoning, etc.? Nobody knows, so the easiest thing to do is to shut down hunting and then claim a victory for the lion - a victory that is baseless and will let the subversives continue to do their craft and further diminish the species - all under the cover of "protected species" status.

It seems that non-hunters can do what they want whenever they want with little fear of reprisal. Can you imagine had a PH and his clients gone on a 13 lion killing spree?! They would be thrown under the jail for that one! Were any of the parties responsible for the poisioning in Uganda held accountable for their actions? Bet not!

I don't pretend to know what the solution to this mess might be, but can guarantee that we will bear the brunt of whatever decision is made with regards to managing lions - and a campaign of mis-information for the antis will make this happen.

SCI, DSC, etc would be wise to do an exposee on this and get ahead of the pack before we are left eating their dust!

This is an "all hands on deck" situation - othwerwise kiss your lion hunting goodbye!

Folks - Honestly the answer to the "lion problem", and the only hope for the lion is actually very simple.

1. Lion Hunting must continue - Without it, they have NO VALUE, and will be poisoned/killed at will.

2. PH's MUST shoot only mature lions, period! The 6-yr old rule is bogus, but fine, set a line somewhere. For someone to think the Lion Aging Guide produced by Craig Packer for example, is valid anywhere outside the Serengeti Ecosystem, is blind to the facts!!

3. Males can be pride males, but they must be without dependent cubs (under 2 yrs old)

4. Quotas should be adjusted if operators are violating any of the "rules". (Shooting obviously young males, for examples, see some of Bwanamich's pics)

5. Real scientific data, like that of the work of Dr. Kerr (Ledvm's buddy) must be implemented in HUNTING BLOCKS, not national parks where they have been studied to death!! This requires the cooperation of the National governments throughout each country, and the hunting operators.

To think for a second that Joubert has any intentions other than an anti-hunting agenda and a money making opportunity for himself. Is to be blinded by the facts!!

To think ANY scientific researcher outside of Dr. Paula White (Head of the Zambian Lion Project since 2004) has 1 ounce of experience with properly managed lion hunting inside a single hunting block across Africa, is to also be blinded by the facts. Case in point - see below.

Far below is a copy of the "Project Summary" set forth by Mr. Neil Midlane, an under-graduate researcher who started the Kafue Lion Project, in conjunction with PANTHERA. He and I, along with the Vice-President had lengthy email comms about 6 months ago, regarding his "study". This is a PRIME example of a researcher and his co-working foundation printed FALSE info in hopes of gaining support from the non-hunting and anti-hunting communities, mainly for financial gain.

1. Take the 2nd paragraph below for example, stating that in 2008 the off-take of trophy hunted lion dropped to an all-time low of 10 in 2008. Dr. White has 43 separate tissue/DNA samples, from 43 spearate lions shot in 2008 as sport hunted trophies, period!!! Lie # 1.

2. Same paragraph - "suggesting that the decrease in offtake was reflective of an overall population decline". Are you kidding me?? A decrease in off-take, if it were "TRUE", could indicate many different things, such as poor hunting conditions, etc, etc, etc. To make such a claim without ANY viable scientific facts to support it, is BUNK science at best, and stupidity at worst!

3. Same Paragraph - "There is also evidence of underage (<3 years) male and female lion being shot, and of hunts occurring inside national parks." I asked Mr. Midlane for proof to support any of said claims, of course he could produce NONE! Not a single one. He says there's evidence to support his claim, but could produce NOTHING when asked to do so.

4. Paragraph 4 - "The legal destruction of lion from hunting (and, to a lesser extent, problem animal control due to conflict with livestock owners) is compounded by illegal poaching. It is difficult to accurately assess the impact of snaring on lion populations, but it appears widespread in all of Zambia's national parks, and even more so in GMAs." IT APPEARS EVEN MORE SO IN GMA'S (GAME MANAGEMENT AREAS - HUNTING BLOCKS) I again asked for proof to his claim, but of course, none was presented!!

MIND YOU ALL, HE, ALONG WITH THE VP OF PANTHERA WHO MADE ALL OF THESE CLAIMS, DID SO PRIOR TO SPENDING 1 SINGLE DAY IN ZAMBIA, 1 SINGLE DAY STUDYING THE KAFUE LIONS (IN THE PARK), OR 1 SINGLE DAY SPENT WITH ANY ZAMBIAN OPERATOR!!!

I then followed up with lengthy emails to both Mr. Midlane & Panthera. The VP of Panthera can be quoted in a major publication stating he is NOT opposed to hunting lion, but has seen rarely seen an operator who does it "RIGHT". So of course, I asked him to please tell me what country he has spent time in, with what hunting operator, in what concession, etc, etc? His answer was SILENCE!! ALL of the Zambian concession owners were copied on my emails to these 2 individuals, along with Mr. John Jackson, and Lane Easter (Ledvm on AR).

I CAN HAPPILY GIVE MORE EXAMPLES OF "LION EXPERTS - SCIENTISTS" WHO HAVE MADE SIMILIAR CLAIMS, THAT CAN BE REFUTED BY FACTS, PERIOD!!

Any of you who think that ANY ONE of these "scientists", outside of Dr. White, have one ounce of experience with actual lion hunting/lion hunting operators/lion hunting concessions/or one ounce of lion hunting experience/etc, are sorely mistaken!!

Joubert's claims are nothing more than PROPOGANDA, aimed at creating a reaction by the easily mis-guided public, for personal benefit. This is simply his set-up for trying to up-list lions at the next CITES convention in 2013, nothing more. He's an anti-hunter, always has been, always will be, period!

If YOU, are truly concerned about the plight of the lion. Experience ALL of these things for yourself, as I have done! Then you can draw your own personal conclusions, you can separate facts from fiction, and refute BS when you see it.

Secondly, DONATE money to Mr. John Jackson at Conservation Force, and get all your friends to do the same. Fight for continued lion hunting, or see the end of the lion!!! www.conservationforce.org Please donate!!


Kafue Lion Project
Project Notes
The overall aim of the project is to establish a strategic management plan for lions in the greater Kafue National Park (KNP) system, including the surrounding Game Management Areas (GMAs), which would contribute towards a better understanding and the sustainable management of the lion populations of KNP and Zambia as a whole. Researcher: Mr Neil Midlane

Background
National parks in Zambia are state-run, fully protected, and under the mandate of Zambia Wildlife Department (ZAWA). Most national parks are surrounded by GMAs where some consumptive utilisation of wildlife is permitted. Although GMAs fall under the jurisdiction of local chiefs and Community Resource Boards, ZAWA retains ownership of all wildlife, and generates significant revenue from hunting concessions (lease fees) and quotas (license fees).

Zambia currently has the fourth largest lion hunting industry in Africa. Long-term harvest data (1977-2008) show that the number of lion hunted nationally decreased markedly after 1992, then remained stable (with the exception of 2001-2002 when hunting was temporarily banned) at approximately 50 trophies per year, until 2008 when it dropped to its lowest level ever with just 10 trophies taken. Lion quotas remained relatively constant throughout this period, suggesting that the decrease in offtake was reflective of an overall population decline. Despite this, and a lack of population data for GMAs and national parks in general, quotas continue to be negotiated for and allocated annually. There is also evidence of underage (<3 years) male and female lion being shot, and of hunts occurring inside national parks.

The legal destruction of lion from hunting (and, to a lesser extent, problem animal control due to conflict with livestock owners) is compounded by illegal poaching. It is difficult to accurately assess the impact of snaring on lion populations, but it appears widespread in all of Zambia's national parks, and even more so in GMAs.

Objectives
This study will investigate the conservation concerns facing lion in KNP and adjoining GMAs. Two main study areas will be reflected: a protected site on the Busanga Plains in the north of KNP, and a non-protected site with similar habitat composition in the adjacent Kasonso-Busanga (KB) GMA.

It will assess whether the KNP acts as a source population for hunting in adjacent GMAs, and if those GMAs draw entirely from the protected population rather than fostering resident populations of their own. The prevalence of wire snaring in KNP and GMAs will be investigated, along with its impacts on the lion population and their prey. Finally, it will investigate whether levels of persecution from legal and illegal killing of lion outside the KNP are so high that the protected population is unable to increase and may be diminishing.

Methodology
Lion density, pride composition, causes and rates of mortality, reproductive performance, and spatial patterns of lions in the two study sites will be examined. Prey abundance in the two study sites will be estimated, and expected lion density (based on prey availability) will be compared with observed lion density. The total population size of lion in KNP will be estimated and mapped.

The study will compare lion offtake with annual quotas in all GMAs surrounding KNP to determine the proportion of hunts that were successful. Hunting success will be related to the methods used and effort expended during hunts. In addition, it will examine lion trophies to determine whether underage (<6 years) or female lion were hunted.

Questionnaire surveys will be conducted with different stakeholders on their perceptions regarding the consumptive and non-consumptive utilisation of lion in Zambia, and other factors pertaining to lion conservation.

Outputs
The aim is to produce, in conjunction with relevant stakeholders, a management plan setting out the principles for sustainably managing the lion population in the Kafue National Park system.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
This is an "all hands on deck" situation - othwerwise kiss your lion hunting goodbye!

Regardless of how you think we should argue this, the above statement is absolutely true!! Unfortunately, it seems that once again the antis have beaten us to the punch.

quote:

Folks - Honestly the answer to the "lion problem", and the only hope for the lion is actually very simple.

Simple...yes...for people who use their brain for logical reasoning...and take the time to truly analyze the problem.

Problem is...this leaves out the majority of the folks that support the anti-hunting agenda...the ones who write the checks and mail them in blindly.

This is why as Aaron stated...we have to get behind...yes, with money...our own "pro-hunting conservation" projects...such as Derr's project.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Folks - Honestly the answer to the "lion problem", and the only hope for the lion is actually very simple.

Simple...yes...for people who use their brain for logical reasoning...and take the time to truly analyze the problem.

Problem is...this leaves out the majority of the folks that support the anti-hunting agenda...the ones who write the checks and mail them in blindly.

This is why as Aaron stated...we have to get behind...yes, with money...our own "pro-hunting conservation" projects...such as Derr's project.

Lane - You need to also put on here, where folks can go to and donate to Dr. Derr's project as well. I sincerely hope AR members will support him, as well as Conservation Force.

quote:

Lane - You need to also put on here, where folks can go to and donate to Dr. Derr's project as well. I sincerely hope AR members will support him, as well as Conservation Force.

Yes Aaron,

Either e-mail Dr.Derr directly jderr@cvm.tamu.edu or myself at ledvm@msn.com .

BTW...Nigel Theisen and I came up with concept of this project with Castles in hand by a Mopane fire in Chewore South one night. When I got back to states...I pitched it to Jim...the rest has been history. But...just like John Wayne said in "Chisum"..."all it takes is money!"

Lane - I will be attending Dr. Derr's presentation tomorrow here in Reno.

And go talk to him personally. I will make the introduction now.

This is a pretty interesting paper:
Impacts of trophy hunting, habitat loss and retaliatory killings on lion populations in Tanzania
Draft research submitted to Proceedings of the Royal Society B
C. Packer1, H. Brink2, B.M. Kissui3, H. Maliti4, D. Ikanda4,5, H. Kushnir1, T. Caro6
1 Department of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior, University of Minnesota, Saint Paul, MN 55108, USA,
2 Durrell Institute of Conservation and Ecology, Kent University, Canterbury, Kent CT2 7NR, UK,
3 African Wildlife Foundation, Arusha, Tanzania,
4 Tanzania Wildlife Research Institute, Arusha, Tanzania,
5 Department of Biology, Norwegian University of Science & Technology, Trondheim, Norway,
6 Department of Wildlife, Fish & Conservation Biology, University of California, Davis CA 95616, USA

Abstract:
Tanzania is home to the largest number of lions in Africa, but lion populations have fallen over the past 7-19 yrs in three out of five non-consumptive protected areas, lion-trophy offtakes have decreased by 50% over the past 7-13 years in five of seven geographical regions and lion attacks on humans have dropped by 75% in the last 4 years due to extirpation of man-eaters. Although habitat change and retaliatory killing have likely reduced many of these lion populations, we show that excessive trophy hunting has been detrimental at the level of individual hunting blocks in the Selous Game Reserve and at the level of entire ecosystems across the country. These data suggest that long-term lion conservation will require modification of trophy hunting strategies in Tanzania. We recommend that lion hunting not exceed 0.5-1.0 lions per 1000 km2 per year and that a strict age-minimum for trophy lions be rigorously enforced.

Here's a classic example of a point I was trying to bring up in another Forum before it got "hijacked". Do you think the average hunter worldwide really cares about whether Lion hunting continues on the African Continent? The answer is sadly NO. Why...because 99.99% will never be able to. Result....apaththy. You must have wide support by many Hunters not just that small percentage who hunt Africa and Lion in particular.If hunters worldwide could band together what political power we would have. Hunting for the select few will not last. Lions now Leopards next and then on to some other "posterchild" animal. I even saw an ad in Sports Afield magazine to "get your Lion now while you still can" How sad is that that the grave is dug before the body is cold

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
This is a pretty interesting paper:
Impacts of trophy hunting, habitat loss and retaliatory killings on lion populations in Tanzania
Draft research submitted to Proceedings of the Royal Society B
C. Packer1, H. Brink2, B.M. Kissui3, H. Maliti4, D. Ikanda4,5, H. Kushnir1, T. Caro6
1 Department of Ecology, Evolution & Behavior, University of Minnesota, Saint Paul, MN 55108, USA,
2 Durrell Institute of Conservation and Ecology, Kent University, Canterbury, Kent CT2 7NR, UK,
3 African Wildlife Foundation, Arusha, Tanzania,
4 Tanzania Wildlife Research Institute, Arusha, Tanzania,
5 Department of Biology, Norwegian University of Science & Technology, Trondheim, Norway,
6 Department of Wildlife, Fish & Conservation Biology, University of California, Davis CA 95616, USA

Abstract:
Tanzania is home to the largest number of lions in Africa, but lion populations have fallen over the past 7-19 yrs in three out of five non-consumptive protected areas, lion-trophy offtakes have decreased by 50% over the past 7-13 years in five of seven geographical regions and lion attacks on humans have dropped by 75% in the last 4 years due to extirpation of man-eaters. Although habitat change and retaliatory killing have likely reduced many of these lion populations, we show that excessive trophy hunting has been detrimental at the level of individual hunting blocks in the Selous Game Reserve and at the level of entire ecosystems across the country. These data suggest that long-term lion conservation will require modification of trophy hunting strategies in Tanzania. We recommend that lion hunting not exceed 0.5-1.0 lions per 1000 km2 per year and that a strict age-minimum for trophy lions be rigorously enforced.

Jabalihunter - I just got back from SCI, so trying to catch up. Hopefully by week's end I will have some time, and will give everyone more info on my conversations with the Panthera folks, plus will add some comments to Joubert's BS!

If you can, ask Mr. Packer & company to send their actual DATA?? Secondly, ask him to provide you with factual proof of his "PERSONAL" experience in said hunting blocks, monitoring actual hunting operations, etc, etc, etc. I will elaborate my point later.

Lastly, I disagree with his assessment of 1 lion per 1,000km2. That's a completely arbitrary number pulled from the sky. It should first be based on each specific area's localized population, and a more realistic number would be 1 lion per 300-500km2, in areas of good lion populations (example the Luangwa Valley, western Tanzania, etc). Age requirements, yes I agree with to a degree.

Another example - Our 5 blocks in western Tanzania incorporate 8 million acres in one big block, they all adjoin eachother. If using his number of 1 lion per 1000km2, that's 20.1 lions per year. Currently we get 19 lion on quota, only sell about 12 lion hunts per year, and lion hunting success will run 75-90% per year, just depending on hunting conditions, the hunter, etc, etc. I think we are operating well within his criteria, even though I DO NOT agree with his assessment.

Maybe eventually...we will fight back!