Texas A&M University is trying to start a research project in conjuction with PH's in Africa.

In this project, PH's will collect a sample of blood from each animal killed. The sample along with a digital photo, a GPS way-point, some animal specific information will be sent to Texas A&M where it will be banked and used to answer questions for safari companies and game management agencies in a more scientific manner than most of the countries regulatory angencies currently do.

One of the first studies will be to look for genetic differences between good maned and poorly maned lions.

DNA diversity is also a good way to get a handle on population numbers as well with out specific animal counting.

This project could be a huge protection from anti-hunting groups as it will lend solid scientific support to the safari industry to combat antihunting advances

The reason for this post however is we need help securing funding for the project either by direct support or by helping us get groups like SCI & DSC to put funds toward the project.

Anyone with intrest please send me a private post

I am sure that various blood samples and related information is already available from different lion research programs such as the Serengeti lion Research program. This could already give an indication of mane variations and its relation to genetics if Texas A&M would have access to this info.

At the Meru National Park in Kenya there was also lion research being done last year. I do not know if this included more than just counting and behavioral habits but Kenya Wildlife Service should be contacted as well.

Some of the studies you mention are the problems not "the solution". A study conducted with a preconceived notion is more dangerous than none at all.

ledvm,
pls elaborate.

Thank you.

Is this through TAMU's vet school or biology dept? The Vet school is one of the best, if not the best in the US.

seeing as people collect trophies and the dna is contained in the hairs and also everyone has a trophy photo ...apart from exact gps points surely we are half way there and can start "five years ago ...

all a guy needs to do is send a trophy pic , a hair and a detail about the locatiuon of where he shot the animal and the database will grow fast ... i am sure there will be a lot ofhunters that will be willing to "jump right in" and provide the necessary ..

most countries require exact loc stats aswell , and it would simply be a matter of getting those records ....

Bwanamich,

In all of the studies that have been done on African Lions, no one has ever approached them from a genetic or for that matter a truly scientific point of view.

We all know that the future of the great African mammals is the safari indusrty. Many of the studies that have been conducted have started off with a strictly anti-hunting bias to begin with.

A good example is the work done by Craig Packer from the University of Minn in Tanzania. He billed hisself as working with the safari companies then almost got the lion season closed in Tanzania last season.

DNA mapping and looking at genetic diversity is going to be key in the future of African game. The PH's are already the stewards of the game. What could be better than getting the PH's into good solid science to give them better knowledge and information to preserve wild Africa.

Caleb,
The project is going to be carried out by the College of Veterinary Medicine.

Ivan,

When it comes to research, info out is only as good as info in. To make this project have real clout, it needs to be carried out under some strict guidelines leaving nothing to chance.

Blood dried on a specific little card (FTA Card) is much easier for the lab to utilize when you are talking about the magitude of samples we are. Hair can be used but is more time consuming for the lab.

/

ledvm , i am with alf , i have assisted , and been part of many scientific research projects in africa , south africa , zimbabwe , kenya and namibia , all were being carried out by scientists , veterinarians , all were sponsored by large overseas universities ,many had state of the art equipment , and i believe were producing some very "real" data

here are some summaries of ongoing lion projects today , some are very very scientific , almost too much so ... most of the leading researchers have biology or ecology degrees etc ... this is just the short list ...

if you want detailed information look up www.african-lion.org/research.htm


Investigations of the African lion in Zambia: estimating population size and sustainability of trophy hunting Luangwa Valley, country-wide surveys for lion distribution and abundance, and development of an age-based trophy selection program.
Principal researcher: Paula A. White


The impact of tuberculosis caused by Mycobacterium bovis on lions in the Kruger National Park.
Principal researcher: Dewald Keet


The impact of lion predation on the large herbivore subpopulations of the Timbavati-Klaserie-Umbabat Complex, South Africa.
Principal researcher: Jason Turner


Spatial socio-ecology of lions in the Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Park.
Principal researcher: Ryan van Niekerk


Spatial socio-ecology of lions in the Kruger National Park.
Principal researcher: Debbie Donkin


A test of a predictive model of lion spatial-socio ecology.
Principal researcher: Rob Sloto


Effects of the environment on the temporal roaring patterns of lions.
Principal researcher: Guy Redman


Seasonal variation in habitat use in African Lions.
Principal researcher: Grant Hopcraft


An assessment of the factors affecting the ratio of lion (Panthera leo) to spotted hyaena (Crocuta crocuta) in protected areas of Africa.
Principal researcher: Gianetta Purchase


Social networks – communication in lions.
Principal researcher: John Grinnell


Temporal and spatial patterns of roaring in lions.
Principal researcher: Guy Redman


Sexual selection and parental investment in African lions.
Principal researcher: Peyton West


Reintroduction of lions to Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Park: new genetic stock to alleviate genetic inbreeding.
Principal researcher: Rob Slotow


The effects of sport hunting on an African lion population and its potential as a conservation tool.
Principal researcher: Karyl Whitman


An investigation into the effects of trophy hunting on the social behaviour, population structure, and distribution of lion (Panthera leo) in the mid-Zambezi Valley, Zimbabwe.
Principal researcher: Norman Monks


Molecular phylogeny and conservation of extinct North African Barbary lion.
Principal researchers: Prof. David Macdonald, Dr Alan Cooper


Laikipia Predator Project.
Principal researchers: Dr Laurence Frank, Dr Rosie Woodroffe


"Project Life Lion".
Principal researcher: Dr Sarah Cleveland


Serengeti Lion Project.
Principal researcher: Prof Craig Packer


Makgadikgadi Lion Project.
Principal researcher: Graham Hemson


Kalahari Transfrontier Lion Project.
Principal researcher: Paul Funston

quote:

most of the leading researchers have biology or ecology degrees etc

Ivan you are making my point for me. In the list you sent me, many of the names behind those publications (all of which I have read by-the-way and one of which my co-researcher participated in) are people who are card-carrying members of anti-hunting groups.

There are excptions like Dewald Keet.

But in general many of those pubs carry a strong anti-hunting bias. If the modern safari industy is going to be the savior of the African wildlife we must get them good science in their hands to use to make good decisions with.

Go find a Tanzanian Safari Company and tell them Craig Packer wants to work with them to manage there lion quotas better and see what kind of response you get.

On another note, there has never in history been another population of animals that got to so few then rebounded back as the American Bison. That is a documented fact and a success story. It was Texas A&M that recently explained how this happened through the use of DNA research. This is the same research and knowledge we want to apply to Africa.

Look at your list and see how many of the papers employ todays DNA technology.

But still, the main point I want to make is that the Safari Industry needs to have good scientists behind them to help them continue their industry not halt it.

/

alf ...i was merely challenging your point that none have been studied from a scientific point of view ... i am a firm believer that hunting creates money and gives value to wildlife and thus leads to its conservation ... i have lectured several times to various audiences this exact point ...the problem behind it is , in spite of the logic .. , as always, in most cases with africa and large sums of money , corruption skews the result , add to that a good dose of anti hunting and we really have an interesting mix ...

on the same note the closing of matetsi lion bunting was as a result of dr. andrew loveridges research ...he is absoulutely not anti hunting but discovered over a three year period that the area had been over hunted for lion and by virtue of there being so mant small blocks , there were over 60 permist in an area thaty could possibly support 20... he is seen as the bad guy by many hunters but really is he ??? the hunting will drastically improve in that area when it opens again ...

oops ...i meant ledvm' ppoint about no scientifuc studies ...sorry alf ..

quote:

You are not serious??????

Methinks you think we live under rocks in the bush?

Africa is home to likely the most complete collection of Lion expertise in the world!

I can right her and now give you no less than 13 scientific references to the genetics of the African Lion and 877 more just on the science of the study into Lion and this from one single source via the Wildlife study group of the vetinary association in South Africa. In 1997 I attended a symposium on the lion and Leopard as game ranch animal at Onderstepoort South Africa....... No methinks there is reinvention of the wheel here!

Alf,
Q: Has the African Lion Genome been mapped?
A: No

Q: Has anybody shown that good maned lions are genetically isentical to poor maned lines?
A: No

Q: Once Lions have no economic value to the African governments, how long do you think they will exist?
A: (this one is purely speculative) but my answer is not long

Q: Who has done more to stop poaching in Africa, the safari comapnies or government angencies?
A: by far and away the safari companies!

Q: When looking at what has decimated wildlife populations in Africa, what has been the cause of greatest decline?
A: poaching and loss of habitat

So Alf, to me and many others, the Safari Indusrty is the saviour of African Wildlife. yes they are a consumer. And consumers make a demand. With demand there comes value. With value, there is a reason for the African governments to preserve the wildlife. With out value, they let them be poached to extinction. Simple as that!!!

And besides, I have never met anyone more concered about wildlife conservation than the PH's I have come to know!

/

me thinks alf is not one of us

quote:

4. Please show your statistical data to prove that hunting companies have done more than governments...... Not in our country my friend, hunting companies are consumers of wildlife, though they are a vehicle to bring money the conservation on the ground is a governmentally regulated and driven entity. In south Africa it is the provions of an act and the mechanism of a governmental policy that allowed for the saving of our wildlife. The history of conservation in South Africa lies at the hands of past governments.....

ROFLMAO

ALF,

Seriously, many of the statements you made above are simply untrue. I will give you specifics & statistics in the very near future.

But, the point of my original post was to gather support for more research and from a different perspective. I see nothing bad about that even from your skewed perspective.

I am not on here to argue with you, but rather to look for support of those that want to support the safari industry and wildlife conservation as I feel it goes hand in hand.

What the hell's wrong with you ALF, this guy wants to do a Lion study in a different way than its' been done before, it's going to be pro hunting, pro Hunters, Pro PH's what could possibly be wrong with that? Are you EVER FOR ANYTHING? What are you doing to help the Lions in Africa? Oh that's right you live in Canada now.

/

quote:

Texas A&M University is trying to start a research project in conjuction with PH's in Africa.

In this project, PH's will collect a sample of blood from each animal killed. The sample along with a digital photo, a GPS way-point, some animal specific information will be sent to Texas A&M where it will be banked and used to answer questions for safari companies and game management agencies in a more scientific manner than most of the countries regulatory angencies currently do.

One of the first studies will be to look for genetic differences between good maned and poorly maned lions.

DNA diversity is also a good way to get a handle on population numbers as well with out specific animal counting.

This project could be a huge protection from anti-hunting groups as it will lend solid scientific support to the safari industry to combat antihunting advances

The reason for this post however is we need help securing funding for the project either by direct support or by helping us get groups like SCI & DSC to put funds toward the project.

Anyone with intrest please send me a private post

Where in this post does he say anything about your people being "dodos and Idiots" You are the one that started all that. All I read here is a guy wanted to do another study that might help the wildlife in Africa. All I see from you is just another USA bashing post, one of many I might add. It just gets a little old ALF,All of your problems are always caused by the big old mean,dumb western world (USA), this guy didn't say one dirogatory word in his first post about Africans or any other study, you are the one who started the argument. What could continuing education possibly hurt?

Alf,
Here is what one of the leading wildlife geneticist in the world and my co-researcher had to say to your comments.

"So, in the last hour I completed a pubmed search of African Lion genome publications and other large cats. In addition, I spoke with William Murphy, one of the leading cat genomics people in world about this. It is clear that there are no new publications reporting a gene map of the lion, there are no funded projects that I can find even looking at this issue.

Some people use the terminology "mapping" when they are talking about looking at the evolutionary relationships of different species or possibly some geographic differences. There is a guy in Steven O'Brien's lab at NCI that has done some work looking at genetic variation in lions in relation to different virus. This might be what this person is talking about.

Also, the domestic cat genome sequence is right now in press for publication. The first reports of the complete cat genome is at 2X coverage and will be published in Mammalian Genome shortly. A much better genome sequence will be completed by these folks in St Louis in about a year. However, this will have only a small effect on our efforts with the big cats.

Nevertheless, the more genetic information out there the better because we can use these resources to better examine genes for specific traits and to identify unique genetic differences in large cats from different regions."

quote:

1. yes it has, the whole search of the origens of the lion has lead to the mapping of the lion genome. Not only have lion been mapped but all of the important species including the Cheetah.

Alf,
Since you have started the mean spirited part of this discussion, I now feel obligated to point out that you DO NOT know what you are talking about in regards to genetics!

it's pretty obvious that ALF blames whatever wildlife problems exist in Africa on hunters in general and American hunters in particular

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Jdollar:

Sorry but that is a outright lie !

Africa's problems lie with the Africans
( denoting those who live in Africa) And the solution to the problem lies with Africans.

Unless Africans find a way of dealing with their human population crisis the Wildlife stand no chance; especially if that population is dependent on the use of the same resources as nature needs to survive, water, soil and vegitation ( wood fuel).

I don't believe the population problem is isolated only in Africa. Many places including developed countries face the same problem. A growing in human population leads to more land used by humans and less for wildlife. I am sure many have in the US and Canada have seen an expensation of City limits, as a result places where people could once hunt can no longer hunt as a result of large city limits.

In my opinion, only hunters will play a key role in the conservation of wildlife and habitat because we all enjoy hunting, and wildlife in particular. I don't believe a nonhunter would care as much on the loss of habitat or land for wildlife as a hunter would.

ledvm,

I will be interested in participating on this. I will need to know what I need to do on my part. I will not mind collecting samples for you as long as any person is able to do with relative ease.

jdollar,and UsangaSafaris,
You have to understand ALF is a bitter South African who blames the western world for him losing "MY AFRICA" as he calls it. Just do a search and read some of his posts spewing hatred and resentment towards the USA ,but he sure does love living over here and making all those western dollars. Now what I don't understand is he bitches because we didn't help them back then and now we have a man from one of the most respected Agriculture Universities in the world offering to do a study of Lions in Africa at no cost to any African person or country that will not only benefit hunters but the wildlife themselves and he bitches about that.

ALF-is it a coincidence that those are the same initials used for the Animal Liberation Front- one of the foremost ecoterrorist organizations in the world? sure makes one wonder.

This is getting ridiculous.

Although I disagree with ALF quite often, on this as well as other subjects, there is no need to attack him like this.

Thank you all for reading the post to begin with. I did not want it to turn into this either. Anyone who is interested in hearing about the poject further, please just send me a private post.

I did feel obligated to defend our project on the scientific side of things. Anyone offended (with the exception of ALF) by my posts, please except my apologies.

sincerely,
ledvm

This thread was interesting for a while including the discussions by both ALF and ledvm before it degenerated.

/

Alf,

Well said. Your comments are always interesting.

quote:

My concern is why the aid to the hunting industry in your presentation, how does or would the hunting industry benefit conservation?

You see the reason I ask is that lets say you have a company of a concession ie they own the rights to hunt, they employ PH's and foreigners pay them to hunt....... how does this money end up conserving?

Unless there's a mechanism by which some of the income is directly given to conservation or the owners / conservators of that land. If you think this is a strange question it is not foreign at all, it is a question that has been posed to an orgnization such as PHASA.

Alf,
Thank you for the change in tone. I will try to answer your questions one by one.

To start with, the PH's I know are very conservation minded. They worry a lot about trying to do the "right thing" and not just the dollar. They were so much that way that it impressed me and has made me want to give them tools and knowledge to preserve wildlife through hunting.

This project actually has a much larger scope than manes of lions. I threw that in because that is something many on this list serv can relate to. In actuality, that will be only a tiny piece of it. In a nutshell, here is what we want to do:

We want to get the PH's from all over Africa to collect a few drops of blood on a FTA card (which I will discuss in a second) from every animal they harvest. We want a picture and a GPS way point along with it as well as a small amount of other data that a good PH will know about the animal. We want to start a permanent bank of the DNA from these animals from which many 100's or 1000's of studies can be conducted.

One of the first projects we want to do is sequence the genetic variations between very good maned lions and poorly maned lions. But this just a tiny little fraction of the overall project.

Many times, according to PH's, the quotas set on different species are not, in there opinions, proportional to population density. By having collected DNA samples for a few years in a concession, genetic diversity can be quantitated and some definitive numbers put on population density. Probably much more accurate than any other type of counting method. This will help better set quotas and is a conservation method that will benefit hunting and wildlife.

With enough years and widespread utilization of this project, a DNA map of the African species can be put together. Then if a poached specimen is found in a foreign country, it can be pin-pointed where it came from.

The list of what this poject could do is enormous and its concept simple. PH's and safari companies ARE conservation minded. They want to protect their wildlife. They are there every day. They have access to the samples. The information they can learn is infinite. To me it is a perfect project.

Due to the nature of the sample collection and its simplicity, not much money will be needed for field work. That is the beauty of the project. It requires no EXTRA steps than those already being taken each day. Field work is usually the most costly portion of a project. What we need money for is the laboratory work at Texas A&M. And it is just a cold hard fact of todays University economics all projects must pay for themselves. So we just need to get a fund started with Texas A&M which will be dedicated to this project. We want to set up a "Foundation account" so that money will draw interest and be dedicated to the conservation of African wildlife.

At the same time, we are developing relationships with PH's and safari companies. We can answer alot of there questions through DNA. The project can give them the scietific data they need to talk with government agencies with clout!

Again, I can see no downside to implementing this project and see benefits to all involved especially the wildlife.

I am going to address your specific science/genetics questions in a seperate post later.

/

LDEVM,

I would like to go back to your original post which requests funds from SCI or DSC for this project. As a board member of the DSC, I can tell you that the only way to receive funds is to petition the club for funds. Contact the main office @ 972-980-9800 and get the ball rolling.

I would like to express my shock at the vehemence from ALF on this subject. I would think "the more the merrier" with respect to research and conservation. His reference to his research without a shot across the bow of any animal gives me pause on his objectivity....."can't we all just get along?"