...is the 375 H&H to Cape Buffalo what the 243 Win is to deer?

Question:
Which cartridge is prefered for Cape Buffalo?

Choices:
416 Rigby
416 Rem Mag
458 Lott
Other
Bull$hit, the 375 H&H is the best!

 

With proper placement, the .375 H&H is more than adequate... However, if a second shot is mandatory... Bigger would be better from that point on. My 2 Buff fell to the .375 H&H, and should I hunt them again, it will work superbly once again.

I've never seen a deer take 6 or 7 shots to the shoulders and chest from a 243 and stay on its feet, but buffalo take that kind of abuse from a 375 quite often.

The problem is that buffalo can soak up a lot of lead from any of the cartridges you've listed. I like the 416 Rigby, but there's no guarantee with any of the cartidges. Make the first shot a good one.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
I've never seen a deer take 6 or 7 shots to the shoulders and chest from a 243 and stay on its feet, but buffalo take that kind of abuse from a 375 quite often.

...........And a lot of larger calibers as well! The only one shot kills I have on Cape buffalo, unless the spine, or brain was hit, have been with the 375 H&H, pushing a 300 gr Nosler partition. However, I wholey reccomend the North Fork CPS for the 375 H&H.

quote:

The problem is that buffalo can soak up a lot of lead from any of the cartridges you've listed. I like the 416 Rigby, but there's no guarantee with any of the cartidges. Make the first shot a good one.

Good advice! My choice would be a 450/400 3" double rifle, but since I don't have one at the moment, a 470NE double rifle will do nicely, and I have one of those!

A 375 300 gr. Swift into the lungs is all that is needed and works quite well.

Of course, if you shoot it in the leg or guts, it won't much matter what you are trying to stop it with. I shot up a half box of 470's into one and it just stood there.

The more I hunt buffalo, the less I believe in the "bigger is better" theory.

Early this month in Tanzania, we tracked 5 bulls for hours. Eventually catching up withem in long grass.

Within 2-3 minutes we had three dead within a few yards of each other.

4 shots were fired, and I am not entirely sure the one insurance shot was required either.

375/404, with 300 grain Walterhog bullets.

My PH said we are messing up our average by firing 4 shots and getting only 3 buffalo bulls!

My cousin and I hunted for the first time in Mozambique this year with Bahati Adventures (great outfit-highly highly recommended!!!). I used a 416 Rigby and my cousin used a 375. I shot my bull with one shot through both lungs and he was stone dead in about 40 yards. My cousin shot his three times through the heart and the bull just started running in small circles. He died less than three steps from where my cousin first shot him. Seemed to me like they both worked about as good (the ammo for the 375 sure was a lot cheaper though!)

To the original question I don't know if the comparison of a 243 to 375 is valid. Personally I've heard of a lot more game being wounded with a 243 than a 375.

As for the best buffalo rifle for a client it is just hard to beat a 375 of some type. It is easy to shoot for most people, can be made in a very portable rifle, works equally as well for plains game as the 'big 5", is what most PH's like to see the client shoot and kills everything on the planet stone dead with a good hit. It's kind of a no brainer.

A PH's rifle is a different deal as he may have to sort out a mess at close range. He probably wants all the horsepower he can afford.

Mark

Pay attention Class!

It shot placement and not shot size, power rating or the right bullet that kills. The 375 and 9.3 work because most folks can hit with them.

That said, when I closed to 25 yards with my buffalo I looked at the 375HH which I had felt was a real kicker, and wished I had a bigger caliber! Kudude

PS: The 375 did just fine with a one shot kill. k-d

Mark is spot on here the client rife has different requirements than a PH rifle.

While I have larger rifles, I am making plans for a leopard/buff hunt and will be taking the 375 as the primary gun. Some of the bigger guns I have bring real concerns of over penetration (at almost any angle) if solids are used but would be great with softs.

As to the 243, it works great with proper bullets on deer.

Mark H. Young:

I smiled at your remark about the PH carrying a heavier caliber than the 375 H&H. On my one and only trip to Africa (alas) I carried a 375 H&H. It performed to total satisfaction on a Cape buff. That very evening in camp, I listened to the PH saying how great the 375 was. I asked kiddingly at one point-" If you think so much of the 375, why do you carry a 470 N.E.?" I never forgot his answer: " Ah, Gerry, the 375 is a killing bullet -the 470 is a stopping bullet!" (Incidently I fired his 470 through 4-6 rounds -and became an instant convert to the 470. {To me it was a "push" rather than a "kick" or a "jolt"}

Gerry375

I've been able to speak to quite a few PH's about what rifle they prefer to see a client show up with particularly for their first buffalo safari. Almost to a man they have preferred a scope sighted 375. What makes them mnervous is the guy on his first DG hunt with a brand new double.

If you buy a double for your next safari take the the 375 also and have one of the crew carry it in case you get a longer shot. This might be the perfect combo.

Mark

It is just amazing how much wisdom and judgment is arbitrarily assigned to PH's.

I am not convinced that most of them know more about calibers or bullets than some random hunter walking down the street.

I have heard so many of them swear by solids for buffalo when they should be insisting on good swofts. Or the stories of the client blowing a shot and wounding a buff after the PH is yelling "Shoot, shoot" even though the shot presentation was not there. When the wounded buff is not recovered it goes something like "After all, you are the one that made the decision to shoot!"

And the PH shooting your gsme. I can't even bring myself to start that discussion.

IMHO, the best buffalo rifle for anyone is the biggest and most powerful he can shoot well.

For many, if not most, hunters, that is the .375.

Most hunters don't have the time, patience, inclination, or whatever, to apply themselves to the problem.

It is indeed lucky for them that Holland & Holland came up with such a workable and now commonplace solution.

I must stress one point. I am NOT saying the 243 Win on deer is analogous to the 375 H&H on buff. I am ASKING, if that is an analogous relationship. I am looking for a consensus of opinion, not stating an opinion.

There is one analogy between the the cartridges, however. Both cartridges are both deemed acceptible for their respective usages, but then their usage is qualified. For example, "the 243 is adequate for deer if proper bullets are used" or "the 375 H&H is adequate for Cape Buffalo, but shot placement is everything". Nobody ever says the 30-06 is adequate for deer, providing proper bullets are used, or that the 458 Lott is adequate for Cape Buff, providing the shot is placed correctly. Perhaps that is assumed, but then why say it for the smaller cartridges? The need to qualify the use of the smaller cartridges seems to betray a lack of confidence in their performance.

Incidentally, I have never shot a deer with a 243 nor a buffalo with a 375, so have no opinion of my own.

Wooly ESS,

"Adequate with proper bullets" in regard to the .243 is a valid qualifier, since there are so many varmint-type bullets out there in that caliber.

But to add the qualifier "with proper shot placement" is needless and misleading. Proper shot placement is the sine qua non of all hunting and literally should go without saying.

Good point!

Proper bullets is a qualifier for any caliber, not just a .243 or .375 H&H. I'd say it is a good analogy, the .243 is a fine deer caliber that everyone can shoot well, the .375 is the fine DG caliber that everyone can shoot well. That said, I'll be carrying my .416 Rigby, with the .375 as a spare.

quote:

Originally posted by jstevens:
Proper bullets is a qualifier for any caliber, not just a .243 or .375 H&H.

True enough! Especially "back in the day," but even now to an unfortunate extent.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Wooly ESS,

"Adequate with proper bullets" in regard to the .243 is a valid qualifier, since there are so many varmint-type bullets out there in that caliber.

But to add the qualifier "with proper shot placement" is needless and misleading. Proper shot placement is the sine qua non of all hunting and literally should go without saying.

Exactly right. I don't know if the analogy is correct about the 243 vs. 375...I might say it is the equivalent of the 30-06 in hunting camps. Regardless, the 375 H&H is a tremendous cartridge and very suited for buffalo. I don't feel it is light at all until you get to the elephant but still adequate there as well...just not my personal choice. I would certainly not feel ill-equipped to hunt buff with a 375. If hunting other game it might be one of the best choices you could make. It's also very suitable for Alaskan hunts. It's one of my favorite cartridges.

I have never had a problem with the .375 H&H on buffalo but I prefer the .416 or 404..

I agree with Bill S. just because a man is a PH doesn't necessarily mean he knows squat about rifles and calibers..I have know too many that could not shoot well and didn't know much about guns, some were great hunters and others were just farmers with a license...I suppose that same criteria applies to Police, car salesmen, bankers and clergymen..folks is folks and they come in all shapes and forms.

And Bill, I still don't mind shooting buffalo with a solid!!

Mark H.Young:

Thank you for your reply to my comments. Age alone (I'm coming up to 78)prevents a return to Africa. Despite my user name and my love for the 375, I think that if I had ever had to shoot at a buff again at a range somewheres between 30 and 35 yards -as I did with the 375, I would like to use something that made bigger holes! (like a 470 which became my second love as I mentioned) I say this despite the fact that the 375 killed the buff on his feet (he just didn't know it yet) and I say that I, someone who had never hit a buff before ,knew it. (He had started to turn towards me and I hit him on the point of the shoulder with a solid. He literally sank back on his haunches and only just picked himself up again. I knew the mark of a mortally wounded animal and while I used two more shots a few moments later by way of insurance (he had staggered down a slight slope and across a small waterhole -and the PH had told me to hold up the second shot because he didn't want him to collapse in the waterhole) the 375 had done everything it was supposed to do. YET (like some other posters) I would like a bigger "gun" the second time around with Cape buff! That critter has left me with enduring memories and I totally respect him,believe me! I saw elephant close up, including some angry matriarchs -and yet, the Cape buff was the one who looked me in the eye - and I was lucky that I didn't have time to get scared or else he would have "buffaloed" me as they used to say in the Old West. (I saw other buff, of course, and I still remember that look, as the old joke goes, "he looks at you as if you owe him money -and he just found out that you don't intend to pay him")

Well, the discussion seems to have come to a close, so allow me to summarize.

The 375 H&H garnered the greatest single number of votes at 27%, which is testament to the faith hunters have in the cartridge. On the other hand 73% would select something bigger, which also tells a story.

Yukon Delta's reply clarifies the whole issue for me. He suggests that the 375 doesn't compare to the 243, it is better equated with the 30-06. As we all know, a hunter equipped with the old reliable 30-06 is seldom undergunned for most of that which walks this earth. Having said that, many other cartridges are available for more specialized purposes.

Similarily, while the 375 H&H is not at all undergunned for Cape Buffalo, there are other cartridges which might provide a better margin for error. However, in the absence of one of these other cartridges, the 375 H&H would do the job with elan, just as the 30-06 will do the job on moose, African plains game, etc.

Have I got it about right?

Good discussion Wooly

Before we wrap it up I would like to add that assuming proper bullet construction is chosen, conditions of the encounter would dictate what is "adequate" caliber. I have taken a 100 yd broadside shot at buffalo hitting just behind the shoulder(deer hunting habit) with a 416 Rem Mag. Buff ran about 30 yds and stopped. Another shot dropped him for the count. A 375 would have had the same results. On another occasion, I took a facing shot at 75 yds with the 416, the shot hit where the "V" of the neck/shoulders come together, this was a "bang flop". I am sure a 375 would have had the same results.

I would think that the same shots on deer using a 90/100 grain 243 of good construction would have the same results.

Changing the conditions to close encounters in the long grass is where I believe the 375 (or 416) is not adequate. One encounter at 30 feet with Syncerus Caffer using a 470 NE resulted in a "bang flop". I believe the outcome would have been different using a 375. I still think about that enounter For our conversation I don't think 243 should be used in heavy cover.

My $.02 worth.

JBoutfishn:

You noted using a 470 on "Syncerus Caffer" at 30 feet and that you were doubtful if the "bang flop" outcome would have been the same with a 375.

Some years ago I read a book by Berger about Cape buff and he wrote something that stuck in my mind. He wrote that he had sometimes hit a buff in the face with some bullets that were bigger than the 375 (I honestly don't remember what ones he mentioned)without the buff turning aside - and that he had never shot a buff in the face that either didn't drop right there or turn aside when hit by the 375. Just mention this "to stir the mix". I loved the 375 and yet, and yet, I would rather have a 470 at 30 feet! Definitely! Syncerus caffer caffer has a way of converting a 375 lover to something making bigger holes.

quote:

and that he had never shot a buff in the face that either didn't drop right there or turn aside when hit by the 375.

The face is such a small target, expecially if it is moving! No doubt if wacked between the eyes I would think the results would be "positive" I my case the shot was head on in the chest, at the point of the "V".

Gentlemen,

I have shot dozens of buffalo in the head, all using our 375/404 with either a 300 grain Barnes X or our own 300 grain Walterhog bullets.

On many occasions, the brain was not hit, but, on all occasions, the buffalo drops straight down, and seem to find it very difficult getting up - none of them ever did. Even if several min utes pass before we could attend to them again.

At least on this forum, I probably have shot more buffalo than most, and except about a handful, which were shot with either a 416 Weatherby or a 416 Rigby, all have been shot with a 375.

I love hunting buffalo more than any animal, and at no time have I ever felt that I was undergunned.

Thanks for your feedback, Saeed. It carries a lot of weight, coming from a man of your experience.