I am soooo hopping mad I could spit.

I was at the SCI convention and met a gunsmith who has some really neat QD scope mounts he makes. He also had a booth at the guild show, and the samples he had were super high end, so I figured he was an A+ operation.

I sent him my .458 nearly six months ago. Every time I call, they either had just one more little thing to do, or lost the shipping box, or made 30mm rings instead of 1" or vice versa. They changed phone numbers and today, I got another excuse (after he got a letter from my lawyer).

I really like the old guy, and he seems honest, but MAN, if I ran my business that way I'd be OUT of business.

This has been my second bad experience. Anybody else find gunsmiths to be a flakey bunch, or is it just me?

What makes me mad is, I still have to get the stock finished, have it blued and work up loads before I head to ZIM next year, and we all know how fast that time goes by...

I feel your pain! I have had many such experiences. Alot of guys are really good craftsman, but poor businessmen. I have a great guy now, who is reasonably local. I give him everything to do now. If you find a good guy, hang on to him, they are rare.

[ 10-14-2003, 02:58: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

I had a bad experience myself, which is ending up costing me much more in the long run than I originally intended on spending. So what I did was adjust my thinking, now I get a great gunsmith to take the work (the rifle in mind is now at his shop), and don't think about the time it will take and don't worry about getting a great deal on the price.

Seems that I will be sending my things away from now on, unless a closet gunsmith that is reputable and does good work pops up local all of a sudden. At least I have enough guns around that I don't get lonely. :-)

(and if you want to talk mad, you should have been around when I got the 458 back from the local shop!!! I still get angry when I think about it. And subsequently it has cost them my business, as I have been in there maybe 2 times in the last 6 months, and that has just been for ammo that I needed on the way out of town to shoot).

Good luck getting it resolved and done in time. You should be able to if you get ahold of people that can do it in a timely manner and let them know that you will need it by a certain date (a date that gives you enough time to develop the loads).

Red

Unfortunately, most good gunsmiths make horrible businessmen. Nothing's ever done on time, full of excuses, price always goes up, etc. If anyone locates one who'll finish on time, do good work for a reasonable price, let me have his number. Unfortunately a lot of race engine builders, chassis craftsmen, horse trainers, etc. operate on their own schedule, not that of the outside world.

Had a local gunsmith take a shotgun. He said it would be ready in a couple of months. He said he would call if the bill ran over $250. Over a year later, after numerous calls he finally finished the work. The bill was $645. No warning.

I know my letting lots of people know about this has cost him business. Enough that he has contacted me wanting to know why I am so mad. I told him. He acts like he doesn't have a clue as to why the long delay and almost tripling of the costs would upset anyone.

There's gunsmiths and hobbyists. Some hobbyists are great artists and occasionally take in outside work for a few extra dollars.

I'm a (pretty good) hobbyist and never take in extra work because it takes me a year to make a rifle for myself. I won't work on it usless I feel like it.

Not all hobbyists are so diciplined I think.

My only experience so far was with a local guy who I had install a recoil pad for me. I dropped the rifle off on Thursday afternoon and he promised it by the middle of the next week. Friday (the next day) he called and said it was ready - and the cost was very reasonable for a job well done. Granted, it was nothing overly complex, but it was a job I didn't want and the old guy did right fine by me. Besides it was a good excuse to chat with someone who knows more about guns than I ever will.

I would probably classify him as a hobbyist though, but I was happy with his work, and he was happy with my check!

I've had custom guns in the hands of fine craftsmen, for as long as two years, but the work was what I had contracted for! I never take a rifle to a smith with a time line involved, like a departure date for a Safari. I want an artist to work when the passion strikes him, not when he needs the money, or wants to get me of his back.

The one time I had a real problem that still bothers me after 40 years. I took a mint No4 Remington rolling block .22 take down, for a new leaf hammer spring to replace the broken origenal. After about two weeks, I called, and got a nonworking number, so drove about 30 miles to his store. An empty building was what I found, with no forwarding address. This really torques me because I went to High school with this guy, and he was considered a friend. I think I'd break both his legs if I ran into him today 40 years later! I hate a thief!

There still are good smiths out there.
I have a problematic 20 ga sxs I bought used recently. I'm also very fortunate to have a fine English gunsmith about 15 miles away. He's worked on it three times and returned it within two weeks each time. He didn't charge me anything the first time, and undercharged me the other two times. On the third time I forced him to take some extra cash.

I swear I'm not making this up

I'm was so impressed with the guy that I got fitted and ordered a bespoke AyA #2 12 ga. from him. (He's the west coast Rep for AyA)I'm expecting delivery in March. Has anyone else noticed that the Time/Space Continuum seems to have slowed down lately?

I guess that means he's a pretty good businessman also

Elmo

Jeez- Don't you guys know by now that if you farm anything out it will always cost twice as much and take twice as long as you bargained for? Doesn't matter if your building a 300 Million manufacturing center or a simple DGR. That's reality!-Rob

I had a gunsmith here in Laramie do some work on my .300 H&H. I kept getting the excuses on why it wasn't done & how much longer it would take. After it had been with him for several weeks I was listening to the news and heard he had killed in a car wreck. I had to go to his house and identify my gun. I picked up the pieces and had another 'smith here in town finish it.

I am sorry to hear about your trouble. My experience with gunsmiths is excactly the same here in Europe. I will always take a least twice as long time as they are promising..

Mark- where in Zimbabwe are you heading in 2004 ? And what are you going after ?
I am going to Vic Falls in May on a 16 day lion/buffalo hunt..

Ulrik Hentzer

....and that's why i learned to do my own work....

If i can't do it, i let one of my more learn'ed friends do the work... and i forget i own it for 3 months...

jeffe

I have two guns in now for simple recoil pad replacement and one is also having a broken screw removed from a scope base. One has already been in for 3 months. I have a note in front of me to remind me they are still there. He has the time to talk my ear off for 30 mins. when I drop by but apparently not 30 mins. to do the job. Today he told me they would be done tomorrow as I said I need them by Monday. We will see.

Doug

[ 10-16-2003, 01:24: Message edited by: dwhunter ]

Gentlemen

I know of a gunsmith in Sweden who takes around 1,5 year to get a trigger adjusted, if you are interested

I wonder what is wrong with them. Some makes wonderfull work but it takes ages of talk and waiting.

I guess one must be a gunsmith, soo is just to start learning. The good thing is that it will be cheap working for one self

/ JOHAN

I know several really great smiths. As they have explained it to me when I have asked about delivery, custom work is great and what they enjoy doing; but the immediately needed minor repairs pay the monthly bills and, if there are enough of them, can push out the delivery date for a custom job. One thing that has worked for me is to give progress payments as various parts of a custom job are completed; kinda like building a house and it tends to keep it moving along.

TreeFarmer

I personally have never had any troubles with any gunsmith I have ever had dealings with. Maybe it's because each one knew me personally.

It does seem strange the number of absurdly long turn around times that many gunsmith's have. I have talked to a couple that have said 6 to X months but have never done business with any of them; ( mainly for that reason ).

I would think someone would be very dumb to steal a gun from someone; knowing the victim and that they had other guns. Or, have alot of brass and a very fast horse.

What happens in many cases, barring the crooks, is custom gunsmiths take deposits for guns, feed the kids on those deposits and then can't afford to build the rifles later on and it creates a no win situation for everyone....

Its a tough business and they don't get paid enough for the skill they have and the time it takes to do that good work..Most folks wouldn't pay a price fitting their skills, so there you have it..

like any artist they starve to death unless they get carless and turn out fast, less than disireable work or they get into the production line, only a few make it and I don't know any that get rich.....and they are constantly taking care of phone calls that cut into work time, because folks like to talk guns, gunsmith don't as a rule, they have work to do...

I wouldn't do it for a living, but I have tinkered at it and make my own guns, I like mostly stock work, blueing and a little of the other. I have sold a number of guns I made over the years and its a nice hobby, that pays well..I don't make guns for customers, just myself and if someone wants to buy it I sell it and make myself another.

Like any business there are those who will cheat you, and there are some well known ones that will do so, so check your maker out very carefully is a good suggestion....

Ray, I agree with your deposit statement. I saw problems with the deposit setup early on in my career. It's not always the case with gunmaker/engravers, but I wanted to make sure I never got into that predicament.

I will take a deposit to pay for materials, but I want the full pay check for the labor when I complete the project.

Roger,
Thats probably the reason you have such a good reputation....

I went to pick up a rifle "WITH MY WIFE" that I thought was all paid for except about $100. You know, but the wife really never knows how much $ you have into the gun. When the guy walks up to the counter telling me how much extra work he did and I only owe him another $450. In front of the 'ol lady. I'm still not sure how that all worked out. I was out the money but the wife really wasn't pissed. I did everything to not go back to the shop, but ended up using them to rebuild a trigger on a m99 I picked up really, really cheap. They did a great job and mostly redeemed themselves.

I've been going to the same gunsmith outside of Reading, Pa. for over 20 years. He does excellent work. He can be slow at times, but if you have a deadline for a trip or hunt, he'll get it done in time. I've even come in for something minor, and he's done the repair on the spot. His name is Mike Fix.

I have been itinerant from Florida to Alaska. I have only used smiths that I can go check on via POV within a 3 hour drive at worst for me, though I prefer closer. The longest I have had to wait is six months, but that involved the smith, an engraver, and a checkering man who died and had to be replaced, so pretty good at that.

I have paid for parts/materials as I go, and labor gets paid when the job is done, and I always tip the smith 10% of his labor bill, and they stay really friendly that way.

Some hallowed names of gunsmiths who did well by me:

Florida: Bill Alexander, Walt Sherman
Alaska: Willis Fowler, Kelly Olson
Tennessee: Kevin Jenkins
Kentucky: Rusty McGee

And a few curmudgeons, who did not get repeat business from me, whose names I do not recall.

Rip,

Where is Kevin Jenkins located in Tennessee?

Thanks!

Garrett

Kevin has a shop in Murfreesboro.

I dropped off my Dad's Ruger standard auto 22 (serial# 4594) and the guy went out of business on me. The sheriff found out where he was living and went and got it back. A few years later it was stolen from my house and the NY police got it back again. I gave it to my son, I can't seem to hang onto it.

Just to keep my frustation level manageable-I take the time quoted by the gunsmith and double it. On the front end i tell the smith I am not in a hurry and don't mind waiting for quality. Amazing how those 3 week small projects strech into 3 months and your deposit check was cashed 2 two days after FedEx delivered the gun to the smith.

As long as the quality work is performed on my gun, I can be a happy customer. Quality is worth the wait.

When is the last time you walked into a doctor's office and were seen on your appointment time. Do you expect to wait?

When selecting a restaraunt do you look for a full parking lot or an empty one?

Where the f__k is your rifle!

If you have not received it yet, you should name names.

For anyone interested, the guy Mark sent the rifle to has a very good reputation and it is shocking what Mark has gone through with this guy. Based upon how he has treated Mark, the gunsmith does not deserve the reputation he has.

Now, most of us are big boys, and if we sent one of our rifles to a good gunsmith that is really busy, I can understand (not agree with, but understand) a delay.

However, when you call someone and they tell you they are finished (or a day away from finishing) and will be shipping the gun out the next day, then you should reasonably expect not to be lied to. This gunsmith has been doing this (lying) to Mark for months now. It has been about 3 or 4 months since Mark fist heard that his gun was going to be shipped "in the next day or two".

Anyway, based upon how this gunsmith has treated Mark, I think the gunsmith is a big POS!

Tim

I had a Winchester Laredo trued and rebarreled by a well known smith in Pa. He said 8 to 10 weeks, it took almost 8 months. I knew 8 to 10 weeks was bull when he said it.

One of my best friends is a gunsmith. It's a running joke between us that he's had a Fox shotgun of mine, that needs to be completely restored, for going on 5 years now. Gunsmiths have their own sense of time.

If a gunsmith gives you an idea of how long it's going to take, triple (not double) it. That will be closer to the real time it takes.

I ordered a custom rifle from a "name" smith in Feb. He said late July, early August. To be fair, I changed the order in late April (he had not yet begun the rifle). It's now the end of October, it's not ready yet. I expect it by Spring.

In our shop we start with a consultation.
(this is for custom work, we no longer do repairs)
Next we go through a pay schedule.
This is all but together on a written proposal that can be notorized if requested.
This proposal covers the client as well as me.
It is detailed down to the smallest detail.
(like , the engraved lions eyes glaring right, left or forward??)
Then photos of progress are sent on a monthly schedule.
The payments will have reached 1/2 at completion.
This will be 6 months unless arranged otherwise.
At delivery a remaining 1/4 of total will be tendered and you will take delivery. 30 days later we will have a consultation ( in person or phone, your choice) and adjustments -WILL- be made if needed. At the conclusion you will tender the remaining 1/4.
Now the kicker, there is a penalty clause in our proposal, 10 dollars per day late charge for -EVERY- day past the due date. Know there is also a 10 dollar per day charge for the client not paying at his scheduled times as well (unless arranged in ADVANCE)

This is for a full custom rifle or a simple rebarrelling. No problem is left to fester. It is handled by me. PERIOD.

I started in gunbuilding because of the pompus, callus assholes out there who claim to be gunsmiths and are really jerk around specialists.
I had a prominant midwest rifle barrel maker take nearly a year to barrel a rifle for me (he said 2 months) who told me I was an idiot for picking the caliber in the first place. I was an idiot for wanting that barrel contour. He was "tired" of me calling to ask about "my" rifle. I called once a month after 3 months went by.

This is a pain in the ass and nearly non profit, but I hve been through the mill and will never offer that kind of horrible service.

ED

I've never really had a problem with my local smith but he passed away last year so now I'm looking for someone competent in Northern California. Any suggestions?
Blacktailer

Mark,

Hopefully your rifle arrives soon and to your satisfaction. I know there is still alot of work to be done before it is ready for Africa.

I know that the way many gunsmiths operate, with long delays, is frustrating. However, my issue with this gunsmith is the dishonesty when he tells someone that the rifle is ready (or near ready) and will be shipping in the next few days. Based on what I know, I highly doubt the gunsmith had any intention of shipping out the rifle when he told Mark over the phone that he would (it has been well over 3 months since he first said he was ready to ship it). The guy was lying to Mark in my opinion.

Now, if the guy had said that he was really busy, backed-up, etc. and would not be able to complete the rifle for another 3 to 4 months, that is different. Mark then could have either decided to wait, or get the rifle back and have the work done elsewhere. The work involved with Mark's rifle is only installing custom scope mounts. That's it.

Anyway, my rant is due to the dishonest behaivor that I believe was involved here. I just hope it all works out.

Tim

Here is an observation from the peanut gallery, but is it perhaps just a little unreasonable to expect a gunsmith to be

a) a master craftsman,
b) a shrewed business man
c) a competent customer service rep
d) have superb organizational skills
e) be a financial wizard and budgeting expert

Heck, anyone that possesses a combination of a) with any of the others can get a job in a machine or tool and die shop and make $40 an hour starting tomorrow...... JMO, Dutch.

Dutch,

I would say honesty combined with any one of a, b, c, d, & e above is not an unrealistic expectation.

Let's say I sell guns over the internet, you buy one from me and send me the money. I tell you that as soon as I get the scope installed I will send it out to you. Should only be a day or two. You call me a week or two later and I say that a few things have come up (excuses) and that it will go out tomorrow. Now let's say 3 or 4 months have gone by and I don't take your calls.

Would you still say it is OK for me to do business this way since it is unrealistic to expect a thru e?

Tim

LOL!

Bad example, though, mounting a scope isn't really gunsmithing. I mean, I've even managed to not screw that up....

No, all I am pointing out is that our expectations are not in line with the reality of things. Crooks are crooks, incompetents are incompetents, and broken promises are broken promises.

The gunsmith I use is retired, and just has fun with what he does. I routinely pay him 10 to 50% higher than what he charges...... and that is still way too low. For example, he re-cut the checkering on an Al Biesen stock (26 lpi), steel bedded it, put a pin behind the recoil lug, fixed a crack, and wanted $180. He is lacking in b).

Fortunately, he doesn't need to make a living anymore. Now, he is sure happy when I show up, and my work is always done presto.

In the past, I have dealt with guys that "promise", and I don't play that game anymore. As soon as the gun is done, I pay. Want the money? Get it done! That eliminates some superb craftsmen from my choices, and some lower priced outfits, but so be it. As a friend of mine is wont to say, you can have fast, good and cheap. Pick two, only. JMO, Dutch.

N'gagi,

I know the gunsmith you are referring to. He is a super nice guy and has been more that helpful to me on many occasions regarding questions I had about his services as well as those of several others.

I hope you are able to sort this issue out as quickly & amicably as possible for all parties. I for one would hate to see his name used in one of the negative threads we have here all to often....

Just as a side note I am considering using this individuals QD mount system on a rifle project I am planing.

I hope it all works out for the best...

Regards,
Dave