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| One of Us |
With the recent ruling banning Lion imports into the USA, I am curious to hear what's going on with those who have Lions on their farms. Are you still booking hunts, and if not, what have you done with your Lions? | ||
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I've posited the question a few times with no real discussion. Approximately 25-35% of the "wild" lions are in these ranches. 6,000-8,000 I believe? And the bottom just dropped out of the "market" for said lions? Lions with now limited market and very expensive eating habits.... Where's the discussion on this catastrophe in the making???? Do they get slaughtered quietly for their bones now God forbid??? | |||
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When they count real wild lions, they don`t count the caged "wild lions". They can`t live in the wild, they can`t hunt in the wild. I have never seen a report that counted those pets. Should we start to count privately owned lions and zoo lions aswell? | |||
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Poyntman Would you mind telling us how you came to know this. I am pretty sure it is incorrect and consequently wonder why you felt the need to put this on a public forum. Please back it up with facts, or take it down. Posting "thumb suck figures" as fact is irresponsible. Its what the anti hunters do to discredit our conservation efforts. Whos side are you on? Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I think it is a sarcastic remark that is why it is put in brackets. We all know that they are tame Lions often sold as "wild" Lions. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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So Jaco. After posting your "future of hunting" article just yesterday, you see no problem with placing unsubstantiated bulldust on a forum you know is watched by the anti hunters. I dont think Facebook is the problem here Jaco, its people like you making comments to that effect. You may be selling captive cats as wild, but I know that it is not common practice. Hell there is even a seperate record book for them. Maybe you should go and read the article you posted yesterday as you today have done damage to hunters and hunting by smearing everyone with your tar brush. I suggest that if you know of anyone selling captive cats as wild cats that you report it to the authorities. You need to take responsibility for what you write and publish Jaco. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I posted those numbers because they are real numbers. It's not irresponsible at all and I'm surprised honestly by a couple of the responses By most counts there are how many truly wild lions roaming Africa? 20,000 give or take? (as we all know lions are hard to count) And (for those who seem mathematically challenged apparently) there are by most estimates 6,000+ captive bred Lions So... 6/20 = .30 (otherwise know as 30%) to give some remedial math or...if you consider the TOTAL population to be 26,000 (20,000 + 6,000 for a couple of you morons). The 6,000 would equal approximately 25% of the total population The estimated range of these would represent somewhere between 25-35% depending on what the true numbers are and how you chose to view the denominator (another apparently tricky math term for you) I see from some of the responses the true lack of understanding of what this may indeed represent If the population estimates are materially off them someone give a better number The point is, it would be an absolute tragedy if a large portion of these animals are wiped out!!! That was the point and I personally believe a very important point not being discussed in all this mess | |||
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20,000 wild lions, by who's estimate? 6,000+ captive lions by who's estimate? The most virulent of the anti-hunting, Bambi cuddling crowd estimate 20,000 - 30,000 wild lions left in the wild so I'm inclined to believe that there are probably more than that. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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You have better numbers? (I would tend to agree with you by the way that there are likely more) And does it lessen the point? If it were 20% does that change the point? I believe those are generally accepted estimates, so if someone has a better hard figure then please supply I've read a fair amount on the subject and I wasn't trying to split hairs over one estimate vs another. The point is there are a massive number of captive bred lions that represent a very material percentage of total lions | |||
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The 6,000 captive bred lions comes straight from the South Africa...like I thought. You may apologize at any time...... PRETORIA, South Africa, April 26, 2015 (ENS) – South Africa’s Department of Environmental Affairs has released for public comment its first-ever Biodiversity Management Plan for lions, panthera leo. The Biodiversity Management Plan notes that there are around 6,000 captive-bred lions throughout the country, bred “exclusively to generate money” and that the captive breeding and subsequent release for hunting of captive bred lions remains legal. A Bloomberg report lists estimates of 7,000-8,000 but doesn't cite the source The 20,000 comes from numerous sources as an estimate. This is in one place: Most lions now live in eastern and southern Africa, and their numbers there are rapidly decreasing, with an estimated 30–50% decline per 20 years in the late half of the twentieth century.[2] Estimates of the African lion population range between 16,500 and 47,000 living in the wild in 2002–2004,[156][157] down from early 1990s estimates that ranged as high as 100,000 and perhaps 400,000 in 1950. Primary causes of the decline include disease and human interference.[2] Habitat loss and conflicts with humans are considered the most significant threats to the species.[158][159] The remaining populations are often geographically isolated from one another, which can lead to inbreeding, and consequently, reduced genetic diversity. Therefore, the lion is considered a vulnerable species by the International Union for Conservation of Nature, while the Asiatic subspecies is endangered.[160] The lion population in the region of West Africa is isolated from lion populations of Central Africa, with little or no exchange of breeding individuals. The number of mature individuals in West Africa is estimated by two separate recent surveys at 850–1,160 (2002/2004). There is disagreement over the size of the largest individual population in West Africa: the estimates range from 100 to 400 lions in Burkina Faso's Arly-Singou ecosystem.[2] Another population in northwestern Africa is found in Waza National Park, where approximately 14–21 animals persist.[161] Population and conservation status | |||
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Poyntman I have no problem with you putting your remedial level maths to the test. But you stated that they were counted as wild lions and sold as such. That is utter bullshit and you know it. Maybe you should stick to your maths and leave conservation to those who actually know whats going on. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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Jaco, this is a public forum that is watched by anti hunters. Posts from this forum have been referenced in anti hunting propaganda and even news reports. If you think you are protected in here, you are wrong. You really do need to go back and read with Mostert wrote as you have not understood it. If you had you would understand the implications of a hunting outfitter claiming on a public forum that captive bred cats are being sold as part of the wild population and used to falsify statistics. Should this "idea", that you have created, be perpetuated it could result in further reductions in our ability to conserve our wildlife due to misconstrued "facts" being used to shut down hunting. Stop taking things personally, I would tell anyone exactly the same thing. Again I state, there is no factual basis to support your claims, and as such they have no place being spread as "truth" on a public forum. Good day Jaco, I trust that once you settled down you will realise that we are on the same team here, but sometimes the implications of our actions go way beyond our own understanding. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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VentureSouth.... I said absolutely nothing about them being sold or hunted or counted as wild lions Nothing......you seem to have missed the entire point. This was never intended to descend into some moral argument about the merits of canned hunting etc Actually I think we would all agree on the following, which was the intent: 1)The entire point is there are a massive amount of them that represent a very material amount of the total lion population (a fact I backed up after you asserted I seemed to have just made them up and the 6-8000 number was incorrect) 2)Because of the stupid actions by the USFWS they are now at extreme risk as the market for said animals has been taken away...maybe permanently. 3) the old saying, "if it pays it stays" is very applicable here and Lions are very expensive to maintain and feed. Thus...what happens to them now? 4) It would be an absolute tragedy if because of the above these Lions are quietly killed, sold for parts...etc The fact remains that, to my original point....this population represents a full 25-35% of the total lion population..they are at extreme risk IMO, and no one is discussing. This whole fiasco could turn into a "lion genocide" all because of the idiot anti hunting crowd and so called "conservationists". As usual, they could be the very cause of the worst case scenario they purport to care about. What say you??? | |||
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I have changed the format of one part of the quote a bit, as that is what I wish to address. I see that Venture South has joined this forum some time after I made a similar accusation to the one he has just, lets' just use the soft word of "confronted" Jaco about. Maybe I should just point out that a "great friend" of this forum, one jolouburn, prompted me to make a posting way back on 18 January 2012 08:09 South African Hunting Information 1: Wild Lion hunted numbers??? Not surprisingly I then did not evoke a single comment with my posting. Maybe because I blatantly accused someone - I still don't know quite who - of providing false information about the status of lions exported from South Africa. I also implicated that PHASA is doing nothing about this false information. So everyone refrained from attacking me then. I still say that the statistics quoted supposedly from CITES' database in the original jolouburn thread about the number of "wild lions" exported from South Africa is IMHO most definitely a BS-Story! Now Jaco made a statement that essentially boils down to the same thing and he gets, well, confronted? Incidentally, I nowadays have a bit faster Internet connection than I had to struggle with in 2012. I will now attempt to get into the CITES Database to verify the correctness of the numbers quoted by our friendly lady enemy jolouburn. Scientific Review Group (SRG) of the EC Wildlife Trade Regulations statement that "something is wrong" with CITES wild lion statistics. I hope that someone can just tell me where I've read it wrong, but no-one is going to convince me that there are more than about a dozen or so really truly wild lions hunted in South Africa in any one year. Yet someone or some people or some organization(s) has provided CITES with numbers amounting to about 250 "wild lions" exported from South Africa for a number of years. Who is guilty of providing this misinformation to CITES? Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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Andrew I changed my screen name recently to fit the business name. This is Ian Blakeway from KZN. I remember your post well. I have been on the board for the last 10 years. I am all for rooting out corruption. My statements go more to the weight of responsibility that outfitters carry when posting in public. We are "industry insiders" and we owe it to our fellow Outfitters and Phs to ensure that we dont fan the fire with unfounded or uncertain statements. More than once a direct quote has been taken from this site and used against us. We never get a second chance to rectify it either. Hence my objection to that sort of comment unless it is backed up with real facts. Anyway, it would appear that that has sailed over the heads of our fellow forum members. All the best, it just started raining her in KZN. Lets hope you get your fair share in Soutpan Regards Ian Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Andrew here is the figures that you are looking for: Wild Captive bred 2000 93 33 2001 53 72 2002 117 103 2003 106 123 2004 103 218 2005 85 181 2006 99 373 2007 207 355 2008 186 673 2009 149 655 2010 29 547 2011 63 705 2012 75 742 2013 28 684 2014 26 979 2015 There are no data for 2015 available yet. The data from 2010 looks like it is more accurate in my opinion. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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So gentlemen.... Back to the original point. What then is the likely outcome for the 6,000+ captive bred lions? VentureSouth is very correct in where he is coming from. That certain things here can and do get used by anti hunters etc and we ourselves clearly get fired up with one another over the topic and most here are well intended and are on the same side Do people not want to address the topic for this reason? I have my Lion and will likely never hunt another but I damn sure would like to see our children and our children's children someday have the same opportunity With proper conservation that 6,000 could become 60,000 if people wanted (and had the space and ability to do so) With no market and value that 6,000 might not survive and certainly won't propagate | |||
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Poyntman My feeling is that the direct result of the FWS decision will be that many of the captive bred lions are killed, not hunted, and sold at whatever cost they can to recoup costs. The bottom line is that these lions are no different to any other "farmed stock" they only exist because there is a demand for them. Remove the demand and you remove their value. That said, the long term survival of the African lion in the wild has nothing to do with these captive cats, other than possibly providing a genetic library to use in supporting re population etc. Please do not confuse the captive bred cats with Lions living behind a fence who are self sufficient and breeding freely. The biggest effect of the FWS ban has meant that many current conservation areas that are only viable because they have the income from a Lion tag, are now no longer viable. These areas will revert to Pastoral land use and ultimately be destroyed. The lions and other predators will be poisoned, the game will be snared as fast as possible. The cattle will deliver the final blow by denuding the vegetation to the point where it becomes a dust bowl. What is sad here, is that these decisions have been based on bogus science produced by people like Packer, who studied a minute population in an isolated area. These findings have been applied to the whole of Africa. To put it in perspective that would be like the Cuban doctor who is trained in podiatry being brought in to perform open heart surgery on conjoined siamese twins while their mother is giving birth to them after she has suffered cardiac arrest. Its that absurd Anyway, as long as politicians are making decisions that should be made by conservationists, we are going to continue to loose species at an unacceptable rate. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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What Ian wrote is 100% true. I have heard that the marketing effort moved towards Russia and the old "east block" countries. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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There is another scenario here. The breeders may not change anything. Captive lion breeding will continue if not accelerate as the Asian demand for lion bones and skins increases. The increased demand could then push prices beyond what is currently paid by hunters. All due to the fact that "conservation organisations" chose to allow politics to make their decisions for them, rather than good science and cooperation. Specialist Outfitters and Big Game Hounds An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I really like your way of thinking!  May I also try some creative thinking? 1. Let's all do whatever we can as hunters to help to increase the demand for lion bones. An increased demand for lion bones will surely also increase the demand for deal lions? This will surely also increase the demand for living and breeding lions? Surely the South African Predator Breeders Association (SAPA) will be happy with this outcome? 2. This increased demand for lion bones will, through the normal economics of "supply and demand", surely rise the value of a dead lion's carcass. Just remember that the SPCA will surely crucify anyone who removes lion bones from a living lion. Ian speculates that the value of a dead lion's bones may rise to the point where the guys who currently shoot captive bred and released for shooting lions will no longer be able to afford to do so. Surely PHASA and the hunting industry as a whole will be satisfied with that state of affairs?3. If a dead lion is worth more, then surely a live lion will also get to be potentially more valuable? Remember a dead lion carcass is nothing other than a live lion that has been killed! More demand for lion bones, more demand for dead lions, more demand for living lions to be killed, which can only be met by more actually breeding lions. Sure, what I speculated about in point 1 that SAPA will be happy must be correct? 4. So more killing of living lions than is now the case is required? Wonder about the cost of actually killing a live lion to the lion bones supply industry? Surely the SPCA will want a humane kill by something like a lethal injection administered by a qualified and registered Vet? But that, involving a qualified and registered Professional person, will be expensive! 5. Now I wonder if the lion bones supply industry can reduce the cost of actually killing a living lion so that the potential value of the lion bones can become actual value of trade able lion bones? 6. How about asking the former "captive bred and released lion shooters" who now no longer can afford the price of a captive bred and released lion to simply shoot one at a significantly lower cost than to pay a Vet do humanely euthanize the same lion? From a hunter's point of view this sounds good, actually very good! Get paid to do what you no longer can afford to do? 6. But why not take this line of thinking one step further? Won't there be a long line of not so poor lion shooters who will be prepared to actually pay for the excitement of shooting a potentially more valuable lion so that the bones from the valuable carcass can be sold to the lion bones using industry? Surely the economic laws of supply and demand will level out the price so that there is eventually a balance between supply and demand? I think I'm fast busy arguing myself into a corner! Better quit now!  Andrew McLaren Professional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974. http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa! Enquire about any South African hunting directly from andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that: One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it. One cannot cure: Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules! My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat. Today I still hunt! | |||
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