I am taking a 416 Remington Magnum with me to Tanzania. I have always shot the 400 grain Swift A Frame bullets. One of my friends is really trying to persuade me to dump these and shoot the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws.

Any opinions on which is best?

I was going to ignore him, then I thought about a couple of animals that I wasn't thrilled about. For example, a lion shot broad side without complete penatration.

Thank you.

Both are premium quality bullets. I doubt there is any empirical data that one could present which would favor one bullet over the other.

What you will find is one's own personal preference for one bullet over the other. Perhaps that is why your friend is suggesting a change?

Personally, I have used the Swift A-Frame (.416 Rem Mag and .375 H&H) on six buffalo and over twenty plains game. I have experienced nothing but excellent results.

Regards,

Terry

Alright Terry, I'll bite. What were you doing hunting elephants (two, no less) with soft points? I thought ele hunting was solids only.

Tim

As was said previously, these bullets are pretty much equal in performance. I have used both in the .416 Rigby and each has performed well. I would suggest using the one that shoots best in your rifle.

Geronimo

Tim,

How stupid of me, sorry, I will have to edit my previous statement. I used solids on the elephants.

Regards,

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
Tim,

How stupid of me, sorry, I will have to edit my previous statement. I used solids on the elephants.

Regards,

Terry

No problem. You just have "safari" on your mind which makes it difficult to think strait. I know, I have it to

Tim

Dear Larry Shores,

When the Tropy Bonded Bears Claws first came out I was very impressed by the way they mushroomed. They expanded to silver dollar size in the 458. I thought they would be ideal for cats.

I then shot 8 times at a wounded lion (3 reloads of the rifle) hitting him variously from the paws to the spine as he bounced around roaring.

He finally did get himself organized to come but it wasn't a charge as his back as broken by this time and all he could do was pull himself along with his front feet.

I was happy about hitting the spine and began to wonder about the bullets. So I shot some wounded puku, animals about like a whitetail deer in size, broadside. The bullets did not exit.

I was using a post 64 model 70 Winchester and they fed OK.

I then switched to a model 98 Mauser 458 with a 5 round box magazine and found the TBBC would not feed being blunt in shape. I switched to the pointed 458 swift A-Frames which fed fine.

But the Swift A-Frames sometimes did not expand in the 458 in buffalo acting like pointed solids.

So in 458 the TBBC seemed too soft and the Swift A-Frames seemed too hard.

Since then I hear the TBBC have been toughened up. I am sure the initial runs would not have worked well on buffalo and that is likely what they were most used on since most people hunt buffalo. The company probably got complaints.

Not being happy with either I bought some Federal ammo with 350 grain bullets (now discontinued) for my 458. I will try them on dead zebras first to see what happens and may use them on cats.

If they prove to be too soft I will likely return to the tougher Swift A- frame.

Barry Gaynor, who has shot more than 250 lions on problem animal control in Kenya likes the 458 for lions. He prefers the old fashioned Winchester soft nosed bullets to the premium bullets at least in the 458.

That is my experience with these two bullets in the 458. Of the two I prefer the Swift A-Frame.

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Correction above - two not three reloads of the rifle.

Ted, I think Mike at North Fork has the answer to too much or too little expansion with his softs.

I have not yet personally used them on game, but have heard nothing but great reports. From a 416 they are always found against the offside hide of a buffalo.

Hi Ted

I can tell you right now that a 350gr bullet in .458 is not the way to go, not even a Barnes X in that weight. I have had a lot of experience with various premium grade bullets, but will reserve my comments till tomorrow, as i still need to speak to a representative of one of the bullets mentioned latr today.

Dear Don-G and Karl S,

Thanks for your comments. I would like to get a suitable 458 factory load for lions both running away and charging.

If as Ganyana, says hydrostatic shock and velocity is very important on cats it may be that the 458 is not suitable for charging lions at all.

I have used solids on lions as much as anything and so far have found them to be pretty good despite the constant advice against using them. You can kill a fleeing lion shooting him up the butt and a charging one by braining him and you know the bullet will work.


VBR,


Ted Gorsline

I had a Trophy Bonded Bear Claw in .416 rem. loose a whole lot weight on my zebra in 2000. I will have to look for it and get a pic and the total weight to you. I bitched to Federal Cartridge in an e-mail to no avail. I got their attention at a Shot Show when I demanded they weigh it in front of a crowd. Person at the show gave me an address to send to.

They claimed it could not of broke up the way I said it did. Sent it back with a box of .416 Rigby. E-mailed them saying thanks for the Rigbys but I shoot a Remington Mag. Told them I was glad I was not hunting Dangerous Game. Also said I had no intention of buying their ammo for my .416 ever again.

I gave the box of Rigbys to a P.H. friend of mine said thanks for the primed brass. He loaded it with Rhinos. I bought dies and have loaded Barnes and Rhinos ever since.

I would agree with Geronomo use what shoots best in your gun.

Here you go I found the bullets from that hunt.



The one on the right is the bullet I mentioned. As you can clearly see its fallen apart. the 327.9 grains that are remaining are far under what they claim in weight retention.

This is from the Speer web site.

Retained weights over 95 percent are the norm. Mushroomed lead stays with the jacket petals, The nose-heavy expanded bullet means straight-line penetration. This is one awesome bullet.

In my experience the 400 grain Swift A-frame in the .416 REM. is the closest thing I have ever seen to a 100% reliable bullet. We had a whole batch of ones recovered from water buffalo sitting on the window sill in Australia. They were always right under the skin on the far side, a perfect mushroom with very high weight retention.

I vote for the Swifts!!! I have tried both and for some reason have always gotten better accuracy with the A frames. My suggestion is to try both and pick the one that groups the best. Good Luck..

I have had excellent results with Swift A Frames. The Pics below are 350 grain A Frames removed from Cape Buff with 98% weight retention.

Between those two, no question as to the A Frame. Over 15 species of African game and all but the buff were one shot kills. The buff took two, but you know how stubborn they get sometimes. jorge