Has anyone here gotten a leopard permit for the Limpopo Province for the 2006 season?

Heading over to hunt in May and one the guys in the party wanted to try for leopard. Seems that there are now "new" wildlife fees assocaited with getting a permit and no one is quite sure where the fees are going, hence no one is getting leopard permits.

I believe there were only two permits issued last year althought the quota is suppose to be 40 or so.

I am told I have a leopard permit for 06. I am hunting in Limpopo with a guy I have hunted with before, who is well known (every other PH I mention his name to knows him and says he is experienced, honest etc) BUT

The hunt got rescheduled from March to July because the permit did not come through. I was suspicious and wrote to PHASA, which never replied, asking the exact questions you did i.e. how many permits issued, when issued, to whom, and how to verify.

The only fee I know of is a fee/donation to local black schools. I am still in the dark about this to some extent - perhaps more knowledgeable PHs who post here from RSA can advise.

I understand the "winners" of the permits were determined several months ago and a matter of publc record, if one can access it.

404 Jeffrey

Has the permit been issued to you or the PH?

Odd that your hunt was moved to July because I was told to try for leopard earlier in the season to make sure the quota was not already filled.

The PH I am hunting with is SA is solid and said there are games going on in office that deals with the permits and thus at this time he wants nothing to do with them, hence why I believe only 2 permits were issued last year.

I e-mailed Linda Venter at the SCI office in SA and she said there is some adminsitrative issue in Limpopo regarding leopards and they are working to try and fix it.

I also e-mailed the PHASA, along with the government officials in the Province, all to no avail. If you hear anymore, please let me know.

I dont know what the 2006 situation is for obtaining a Leopard Permit,

All I do know is that it has traditionally been ONLY allocated to Outfitters on a BALLOT type system, which IMHO is silly.

From my understanding there were rumblings last year that (to get a permit) the outfitter had to employ a black chap PH or something along those racial lines .... BEE seems to be increasingly becoming the focus !!!

PHASA ( one would hope) should be on top of this and they will hopefully be able to provide ALL of us with a definitive answer as the main hunting season is well nigh upon us. Mr. Dorrington the new chair of PHASA and himself an outfitter/operator will be the best to contact I think !

I am just as interested as the rest of you as we dont seem to ever get any (good luck) ourselves on their so called ballot )-: and we have a raft of Leopard roaming on our own mountain ranch property

Peter

Yes I had heard about the BEE or being at least BEE certified.

Balla Balla, have you heard about a new "conservation fund fee" for the leopard permit.

From what I understand the province has quite a healthy population of leopard, just a lot of games to get a permit.

Probably shouldn't even be posting on this subject but for conversational purposes... A friend of mine who operates in Limpopo received his only leopard permit in the last tens years for the 2002 season and of course after 9-11 the client canciled - ouch! There's some wierd stuff going on with BEE. Last I was there eleven months ago there were rumors that to keep their businesses whites would have to have at least equal shares with a black "partner." This really hit home for me when on the way home one evening the radio news reported that a decission had been made that day to award 17,000 hectars (I think) of white owned farms in Ellisras to black claimants. As my host sped down the road past a neighbor's farm - an old gentelman I was also aquainted with - he informed me the old man's place was one of those "awarded." Now I am not a racisist, I have nothing against blacks or any other race. I see the empowerment of the black Africans as a good thing... BUT not at the ecconomic rape of another group, be they White, Coloured or Indian AFRICANS.

Sorry fella's, didn't intened to hijack the thread, but this political interference in legitiment business galls my arse! My apologies again.

Oupa-

No worries about hijacking the thread, it seems that BEE is has become a relevant issue in trying to obtain a leopard permit in the Limpopo. It seems that no one wants to rock the boat as it may affect their overall bottom line and ability to do business. Can't say I blame them.

quote:

Originally posted by Hutty:
404 Jeffrey

Has the permit been issued to you or the PH?

Odd that your hunt was moved to July because I was told to try for leopard earlier in the season to make sure the quota was not already filled.

One of the problems with the licencing system is that the permit is issued not to the client or the PH but to the outfitter. He can only take one Leopard per permit.

Once the outfitter has the permit it can be filled anytime during the season and is perfectly secure.... there is no need to take it before the quota gets filled....

I live in Polokwane (Pietersburg) and tomorrow (Monday) I will go to the Limpopo Cites Office and ask the person that issues the Cites permits for Leopard what the situation is (that is if there is anyone in the office)(tuesday is a public holiday) I will get the official position and post it once I have it.

Thanks Mike. I am in RSA, up by Kruger now, but I too want to pay a visit to Nature Conservation in Limpopo later this week.

Mike-

That would be great. Good luck on trying to get straight anwser and please post any info that comes your way.

Ok, I spoke to Magaret Nemutamvuni (0828063251) Head of Hunting Regulations in Limpopo, she said the following;
They allocated +/- 40 hunting permits to Hunting Outfitters at the end of 2005 for the 2006 hunting season, this is to enable the hunting outfitters the oppurtuinity to market these hunts at the beginning of season conventions. (I have personally seen the list) The costs involved are: R1000 for the permit and R5000 to be paid for training of PDI's (previously disadvantaged individuals). The actual permit will be issued in the client's name once Nature Conservation has been notified of the client and where the hunt is to take place, if they are notified timeously the permit can be collected at the district office where the hunt takes place.

This is the info I managed to get from her. If you need additional info let me know and I will ask her.

Regards
Mike Smith
capricorntaxidermy.com

SA already has legislation requiring a certain percentage ownership by blacks in all publicly-listed corporations by a certain date and I think some special requirements for mining companies. It seems that the govt plans to use their power over CITES permits (they have no say over plains game, it's the private property of the landowner) to bring about the same in the hunting industry. The version I heard was that it is now required, or pretty soon will be required, that all safari companies be partially owned by a "previously disadvantaged" person, provided they are black and connected to the ruling ANC party, in order to obtain any leopard permits (and perhaps even a licence in future). What this means in practice is that a small number of black tycoons, who have some capital or the ability to borrow money and the right political connections, will buy into every safari operator's business at a token price, and be entitled to a cut of the money, while doing nothing to contribute to the success of the business. As in "here's my cousin, we recommend that you make him a partner in your business, now surely you see the advantage of that?"

Reminds me of Little Italy......the construction business in NYC....Las Vegas....

The ANC learned their tricks from the Nats, only they are more aggressive and don't even attempt to hide their schemes. On the contrary, they pull out the race card as justification for their effective confiscation of private assets and it's all done legally. And the rest of the world approves, or seems to.

The hunting industry has provided employment and income to many whites who lost their state jobs when the ANC took over. Many a PH was a soldier or a policeman under the old regime. Farming is another sector that continues to provide a good living to the white minority. No surprise that the ANC is now taking aim at both. It seems they won't be happy until the formerly advantaged become the currently disadvantaged...which is really stupid because that won't make the average black any better off, on the contrary it might well do the opposite as in Zimbabwe.

Mike-

Thanks for the info, great to have someone who can go right to the source. I was always under the assumption the permit was to be under the hunters name, and you confirmed it. I believe the R5000 PDI fee is something new that has been added on starting last year. I can only imagine who qualifies as a previously disadvantaged individuals.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Capricorn:
(I have personally seen the list) The costs involved are: R1000 for the permit and R5000 to be paid for training of PDI's (previously disadvantaged individuals).

Regards
Mike Smith
capricorntaxidermy.com

Hi Mike

Thanks for the update, maybe my brother Alan might then have a Leopard permit on offer (-:

Just my thoughts ::: The Rand 5,000 seems to me to be a (straight bribe) which is doctored up to be a goodwill guesture for the PDI's, or is that being a bit cynicle .... Well at the and of the day we pay and they benefit thats how the new SA works I guess

Cheers, Peter

Balla Balla:

I think you are correct about the R5000 PDI/bribe issue. Last year when we inquired about getting a permit, we were told we needed to pay R5000 for a "conservation wildlife fund". When asked about where the money was going and to conserve what, there was silence. Just needed to dress it up different.

Balla Balla, Give me your brothers' details ie Name area hunting or area where he applied to hunt Leopard and I will see if he has a permit allocated to him.
Regards
Mike

Hutty,

From our previous PM's, you are aware I am familiar with your camp. Our first night in camp and first ever on safari (ever), there was a Leopard in the tree over our chalet getting a monkey for supper. These really REALLY STUPID americans were outside armed only with a flashlight trying to see what all of the ruckus was about!

We came across Leopard tracks several times and hear the cat again a couple of nights later during supper after another monkey. I wouldn't know if Rod is allowed to take Leopards on the property but I am sure you have been talking with him regularly. I wish I was going with you!

Fred

Fred-

You are correct that we have been working with Rod and the powers that be for a Leopard permit for sometime. My buddy was there last year bowhunting and saw 3 different leopards on the property during the daytime no less. Rod believes he has at least 6 on the property. I am going to bring some trail cameras over for him to at least get pictures if we can't get a permit. I will let you know how things progress.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Capricorn:
Balla Balla, Give me your brothers' details ie Name area hunting or area where he applied to hunt Leopard and I will see if he has a permit allocated to him.
Regards
Mike

Hi Mike

My brother Alan Bird has put in an application which would be under Balla-Balla Conservancy Ranch which is located in Soutpansberg mountains

Thanks a lot

Cheers, Peter

Mike-

Just wanted to say thanks for the info. I passed it on to my PH who was heading up to the offices to meet with Margaret about permits for one of the hunters in my group. Seven weeks till we are hunting in Limpopo.

From what I have heard about some individuals who live in the Western United States, if there are problems with animals they follow the Three S's

Shoot, Shovel & Shutup

If I may respond with some information I gathered last week while I was in Thabazimbe.

First, I had excellent assistance from my PH as well a another PH and the staff of Nature Conservation.

I did speak directly with the man in charge of all permits (forgive me if I do not recall his title or name). His office gave me his cell phone, and he took my call and was very helpful, even though he was on vacation. He referred me to his assistant, was was in the office. I recall the assistant's name was "Sam", so for you guys there in RSA/Limpopo, perhaps this will ring a bell.

Yes, my leopard hunt PH did have a license, and no, it had not been taken out yet. I understood that it will not be taken out until I arrive, go to the office with my PH, and have the permit issued in my name. Maybe this is corecct, maybe not. I will see.

Interesting info re the 5000 rand payment. I was told, by several PHs (white) that it was a good thing. It served to weed out some of the people who were not capable of hunting leopard, and these friends of mine wanted the fee to be raised to 10,000 or 15,000 rand just to apply. Apparently the fee is paid by the outfitter upon applicaiton, and it kept by the liceninsing agency whether one receives a permit or not.

My friends stated many, many people apply for the permit that have no business doing so, because they do not have the knowledge or ability to hunt leopard. So, they get a permit, sell it to a client, bring him over, and are inept at getting a leopard on bait for their client. Client is disappointed, goes home, PH at least has the daily rate, and the better qualified PHs who can hunt leopard don't have the opportunity to make money or get a hunter a leopard.

I wish my memory was better, but I was told of the 40 or so tags issued last year, only about 25 were filled. Perhaps someone else has exact numbers, but this is the approximate number that I recall. The point made was that Limpopo has plenty of leopard, so the 15 or so that didn't get one, well, many of them may have missed because of a poor PH. Apparently, ANY PH can apply for one, whether he has hunted a leopard before, or not.

Also, about the fiasco last year, where some thing like 120 permits were promised to outfitters, and these outfitters sold these hunts at SCI etc whith the knowledge and blessing of Nature Conservation, only to have them pulled and reduced to 40.

I was told a Nature Conversation offical was approached on camera by a "greenie" reporter and asked the rationale for so many permits. Specifically- how many leopard are there in Limpopo? The offical said "I don't know". There was a hue and cry by the greenies- how can you give 120 permits when you don't know how many leopard there are? Hence, it was reduced to 40 permits.

BTW I switched from my usual beer to Scoth this trip, so all these conversations around the fire are not as exactly reported as I wished, but I do think I am conveying the essence of information related to me.

Ah the joys of the working with officials.

Just got this from our PH in SA regarding obtaining a leopard permit.

"Here is the bottom line, the quota is not completely fulfilled, and some who were given "rights to market a permit", still may not either get a client, or provide the necessary clearances in order for the permit to be issued.

If I apply for a permit now, it may or may not be processed in time for the 26th May, and we are unable to hunt leopard without it.
They will consider the application, but will not fast track it or give it any processing preference.

It may then only be granted after your departure, I will have a permit without a client, because it cannot be carried over and I will not be granted another one for 2007.
Anyone who has one in 2006, will not even be considered again until 2008!

In fact the only that is certain, is that nothing is certain."

Gotta love asking for a permit during the 05 season for 06, and no one gets back to you. You find out (through AR members) that permits are available. Head to the office to obtain the permit, quota is not filled, but they might not be able to issue you one in 8 weeks for the hunt. So you can give them the money ($1000.00) and you may or may not have a permit when you get there.

Joyful bliss.

Hi Peter,
I asked Margaret if Alan had been allocated a permit for Leopard, either under his name or Balla Balla and she said that to the best of her knowledge he has not been allocated one. This info cannot be considered 100% accurate, will confirm the accuraccy next time I go to Nat Con office which should be tomorrow.
Regards
Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks for your trouble and effort.

Alan is away in Zambia at present on some wildlife adventure trip or similar .. I will find out when he gets back next week if he has an application in or whatever !!

Cheers from Peter

Mike-

If you can, ask her how long it takes to process a permit if one actually has a hunter that wants a permit.

Hi Hutty,
Had a chat with Deon von Welligh (Cites officer - Limpopo) today.
He said the following
" 35 leopard permits were allocated to hunting outfitters. They all received a letter stating this. If they have booked a client it should not take longer than 2 weeks to issue a permit. (Margaret verified this in an earlier conversation) A further 15 permits for the Limpopo province have been made available and they are awaiting applications from Hunting outfitters. So a hunting outfitter that has been allocated a permit from the original 35 should be able to produce a letter from the Department verifying this."

Hope this sheds some light on the subject. If you need more info let me know. Margaret is no leave (for a change) until after Easter but I should be able to get some info from the other officials.
Mike
www.capricorntaxidermy.com

Mike-

Thanks for the info. Our PH drove up to meet with Margaret to obtain a permit. We started this process in 2005. 15 minutes from the office he is called and told the meeting is canceled and to come back tomorrow morning (after a 4 hour ride). He gets there the next morning for a 8am meeting (no one shows till 9:15).

He is then told by Margaret that eventhough he has a hunter for the permit, they don't know if they can process the permit in time (7 weeks away) and that if the permit is issued after the hunter has gone he cannot get another permit for 06 or 07. Needless to say I am scratching my head.

Thanks for the info.

Hutty,
Do you want me to take this matter up with the MEC or at least the Head of Department
Mike

Mike-

If you don't mind talking to someone to try and shed some light on the problem I would greatly appreciate it. I am more then willing to make a phone call or send an e-mail/fax. Any help would be great.

Hi Hutty,
Sorry taking so long to reply, been a bit busy lately. Send me a PM with the details and I will see what I can do. Margaret has been on leave before Easter and unavailable the last week.
E.mail addy mc25@pixie.co.za
Mike