How does the basic 'PH' grade that stack up against a nice used English double, Kreighoff, Chapuis, etc?

I'm curious........

AD

I prefer the fit, wood and styling of a Searcy to Krieghoff or Chapuis. Plus Krieghoff has that queer cocking piece which is slow to operate and disqualifies it from consideration in my book.

Of course you can find much more finely finished used British guns than a Searcy, but not for $9.5K.

To orient the reader, here is a Searcy PH model with an upgrade to the engraving:



http://www.searcyent.com

Sorry, but this is a no-win thread, and my prediction is, it will go the way of the 45-70 BS string!

However,though I don't own a Searcy double rifle, I have shot a lot of them, and I find them to be strong, and reliable! The accuracy is top of the line. I've shot a lot of double rifles, and I have never found one that was more accurate than a Searcy, be it old or new, fine quality, or plain Jane field grade.

IMO, the Searcy PH is a very well made, and dependable working double rifle, and is aptly named. The B.Searcy is made to order, to fit the buyer, and most that are personally fitted start at around $16K, while the Searcy is delivered for $9.5K. Allen $6.5K will pay for a lot of hunting!

If you shop, and you know what you are doing, you can find a Used Britt double for the $9.5K price quoted for a Searcy, but it will most likely be 100 yrs old, and in a not so desireable chambering, especially if it has one othe top three names engraved on it! Addtionally you are on your own if the rifle goes south. Butch stands behind his product, and is a phone call away!

I believe what you get with a B. Searcy PH is a $15K rifle for $9.5K

I have no dog in this fight, but that is my opinion. An opinion, based on almost 50 years of owning, and shooting almost every name, and grade double rifle in the field, if that means anything to anyone other than me!

I am a double gun novice. My experience is quite small compared to some of the "double nut's" here, but I would not put the Kreighoff in the same class as the Chapuis.

I have not shot a Kreighoff, but I have compared the Blaser, Kreighoff, Chapuis and Merkel side by side for fit, looks, and potential function in the field. The Kreighoff and Blaser were eliminated immediately. I liked the Merkels looks and feel. I just wish they had a Searcy there to compare.

Allen,

I'm certainly NO expert, but if I ever get a double it'll be either a Chapuis or a Searcy. That is if I don't call the Judge and make him an offer on his.

Are you thinking of getting one for your Tanzania trip?

-Steve

As it is I´ve only shot one double (boha´s in 9.3x74) but I have handled a few at shows. I feel the Krieghoff is somehow "off" but I can´t really put my finger on what´s wrong with them.

And most of them are overengraved but that is a different story.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
How does the basic 'PH' grade that stack up against a nice used English double, Kreighoff, Chapuis, etc?

I'm curious........

AD

Is the 'dark side' starting to call to Allen?

Mac, that was a totally good answer that makes sense. Thanks!

Steve, I'm considering one for next season and beyond. Right now I'm kicking tires! I'm committed to my 416 Rem. this year. I'll have to find out how long it takes to get a rifle out of Searcy first before I make plans around it even for next season.

What I'd like to do is get a 500 NE in a plain working-grade rifle with a flip-up front night-sight, and fixed rear sight with one folding leaf. No scope........

Two more questions: Does Searcy allow you to select your own wood? Do they develop, regulate and recommend soft-point and solid loads and have the rifle properly zeroed before the client takes delivery?

Thanks, gentlemen!

AD

That's what I meant. For some reason I thought tha that he Tanzania trip was next year. It's This year and Zim next.

I would call both Butch and JJ. Perodeau of Champlin. I've spoke to both at length about thier respctive offerings. I spent about three hours at Champin's with JJ and quite a bit with Butch at SCI. They were both glad to entertain my inane questions.

-Steve

Allen,

Handle and/or shoot as many of the different makes as you can. Each person is a bit different when it come to doubles. I don't like the beaver tail forestock on Chapius and Heyms feel too thin and the stocks are too high. Searcy's feel a bit too clubby and don't swing well for me. Merkels are good guns and fit me well, but most have very stiff triggers and actions. Beretta doubles are beautiful and fit me well, but too expensive. The English guns are wonderful if you find one that fits, but most I have tried have too much or not enough drop in the stock and I have to hunt for the sights when I shoulder them (except for 450 NE#2's 450 Sporting Arms which I am going to steal one of these days when he isn't looking).

I have a Kreighoff and find that for me it handles better than most production doubles I ever picked up and when I bring it to my shoulder the sights are right where they should be. For me it swings well and I have made some difficult shots with it. It has very good sights and great triggers. Also, I like being able to carry it fully loaded and COMPLETELY safe. I don't find the cocking lever/safety catch more difficult to operate than the safeties on my double shotguns. My only complaint with the rifle is the palm swell. I wish they had left that feature off, as it would have made the grip a bit thinner.

Don't bother with folding leaves on your big double. You are never going to use them for hunting and they have a bad habit of popping up when you least need them to do so.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Mac, that was a totally good answer that makes sense. Thanks!

Steve, I'm considering one for next season and beyond. Right now I'm kicking tires! I'm committed to my 416 Rem. this year. I'll have to find out how long it takes to get a rifle out of Searcy first before I make plans around it even for next season.

What I'd like to do is get a 500 NE in a plain working-grade rifle with a flip-up front night-sight, and fixed rear sight with one folding leaf. No scope........

Two more questions: Does Searcy allow you to select your own wood? Do they develop, regulate and recommend soft-point and solid loads and have the rifle properly zeroed before the client takes delivery?

Thanks, gentlemen!

AD

Butch has a bunch (100's I think) of blanks in stock for customers to choose from and yes, he regulates each gun to specific loads before delivery.
I don't own one (yet) but I live close to him so I visited his shop.

Yes, you can pick your own wood, as I did....lot of nice chubs in his inventory.

Butch measures you, discusses options etc.

Mine will be ready in April in which time Butch will call me, I'll drive over and he'll give me a "shakedown" cruise etc. on his firing range.

He has supplied me his load data which my rifle will be regulated to as well as a "practice" load.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
What I'd like to do is get a 500 NE in a plain working-grade rifle with a flip-up front night-sight, and fixed rear sight with one folding leaf. No scope........

Two more questions: Does Searcy allow you to select your own wood? Do they develop, regulate and recommend soft-point and solid loads and have the rifle properly zeroed before the client takes delivery?

Thanks, gentlemen!

AD

Like you, the 500NE would be my choice in the PH! Searcy does let you pick your wood, and a slight up grade is fairly cheap as well. If you want a particular load in your rifle simply load a "REASONABLE" load and he will regulate to your load! He does regulate for loads with soft, of your choice, and most his rifles are regulated with Monolithic solids, unless you want somthing else. If it were me, I'd let him regulate to the load he normally uses, because he gives you the load data, so you can duplicate it at home! One load for soft, and one for solid is all you need in a 500NE, and the componants he uses are available to anyone who handloads!

Allen, you should go down the western double shoot, sponsered by Searcy, and NRA ILA. Butch will have rifles there for you to look at, and shoot if you want. Just give him a call and tell him what you are thinking!

Welcome to the wacky world of double rifles!

Allen,
I don't believe it is legitamate to compare the two, they are not in competition with each other...

The Searcy is a stronger, generally heavier and more accurate than an English gun, its cheap enough to take to Africa and can be replaced easily...

The English guns are a work of art, usually not as accurate, maybe feel a bit better in your hands, have a lot of resale value and go up in price regularly and are a better "investment"

Lots of maybes here but that is my take on the subject..I like them both, but i feel a lot better turning my Searcy over to the airlines than an English rifle...and my Searcy shoots better than my best English rifles, albiet some of my 450-400 shot very well indeed, but my Searcy is the most accurate doublel I have ever owned and it, like a good bolt gun, will shoot all loads to the same POI, no English gun has ever done that for me or anyone else,

The Searcy is better hunting rifle IMO...The English gun is a better investment, but you won't lose a nickle on any double or at least I never have and I could have sold my Searcy for a grand or so more than I paid for it several times, especially since Butch won the National Championships with it...

I think your comparing apples to Oranges, they both serve a different purpose and both have a place in the hunting faturnity...

As one who recently took the plunge into the dark side of double rifles, I say find one that fits, points like it was an extension of your arm, and practice with it. I did that at several venues, including SCI in Reno, and found one that fit me well.

When I got my first, I practiced with it a lot. It served me too well in Africa last June so now I am really hooked.

I look every day for the next double I can lust after (preferrably a 450/400) and look into my safe to see what will go on the trading/sale block to make the purchase.

The Searcy rifles are great. I don't own one, but some day I would like to have one to compliment my 2 left handed German ones.

Enjoy the hunt - Both for the rifle and the animals you seek to stalk with it over your shoulder.

Mike

It might interest you, or anyone here looking for a Searcy, to know about an experience my client recently had with Butch. (As relayed to me)

Butch's personal double is now in Zimbabwe with my client.

He ordered a gun from Butch for this hunt, when he received it, there was a problem that was not fixable in time, so Butch took the gun back and sent my client his double to take to Africa.

Pretty decent customer service.

Ray got it right:

For nostalgia and ROI go English.

For hunting, accuracy and rock-solid dependability go Searcy.

I took my 1920 Rigby over this year and on about the second day of the hunt was wishing it was a Searcy...Babysitting rare antiques on a hunt can be real nusiance...Not that Butch's rifles are beaters, no, but the fact that they ain't making any more Rigby's from the BTW period makes one treat the aforementioned with a little "too" much care...no more taking antiques on safari for me!

I'll be taking my Searcy "Deluxe" boxlock next year. I've gotten the "romantic" notions of stalking African game with my "proper" British double out of my head for now.

As for the other brands...

...One word "Euro"! If you want to pay 10K for a 6k rifle, be my guest. Otherwise study up on your international finance and realize just how great a value the Searcy really is.

That's the facts,

JW

Allen:

I just purchased the Searcy 470 in 500 grains post. I am enormously impressed with the gun and Butch himself. I have owned about 25 doubles through the years with most being Westley Richards. They are truly works of art but not 3 or 4 times better than the Searcy and that's where most 470s and 500s are priced. I have also tried most of the modern doubles and in my opinion since I favor ejectors only the Heym is equal to the Searcy. The biggest problem I encountered with English guns was finding the right caliber and fit. Obviously not a problem with the Seacy guns. I asked Butch about lead times and he quoted a year but could do it in 6 to 9 months if that was what you need. I believe he is planning a pretty significant price bump on the PH so you might want to talk to Butch about that. I don't think you can go wrong with the Searcy for $9500.

LJS

Butch builds good guns! My opinion and I own Brit guns, Chapuis, Heyms and Searcy's is that Butch's guns are a damn fine value! Besides I consider Butch a friend!-Rob

Allen
I much prefer a big bore British Double.
However I have shot a 500/416 Krieghoff, 3 different Chapuis 470's, a Merkel 470, a Merkel 500 Nitro and a Searcy 500 Nitro.
Shoot several different doubles and pick the one you like the best.
Note: the 500 Nitro is a step up in recoil over the 450/470/s.
Shoot one before you buy it.

My WJ Jeffrey in .450 No.2 NE didn't cost much more than the Searcy PH model, so the price difference is not always dramatic.

I asked Butch at the SCI convention a couple of years back why he didn't use a third fastener.

He vehemently stated, and argued based on metallurgical improvements and tighter manufacturing tolerances, that a third fastener was no longer necessary on a well-made double rifle.

Butch pretty much convinced me, but I must confess to a few lingering doubts.

So, can anyone say for sure whether they will shoot loose sooner than one with a doll's head or Greener cross-bolt styled third bite fastener?

Allen
Just come to the next Double Rifle Shooters Society Hunt. There you can shoot several different double rifles and you can use one of my doubles for the hunt.
Even though you are Bolt Rifle Trash, I can get you Temporary Immunity.
Bring an Echols rifle or two when you come, as the DRSS Members recognize a good rifle when they see one.
Seriously at a DRSS hunt you would have a chance to shoot several different double rifles.

The Searcy appears to be the counterpart of the HS Precision rifle. Topy function and accuracy but lacking the pizzaz of custom Mauser (or M70) in wood.

Mike

With the modern steel and manufacturing processes today I believe the Searcy is much stronger than any British double..I shoot monolithic bullets at 2245 FPS in my Searcy and have run at least 700 rounds through it, Butch ran 300 through it at the nationals match..Its just like new and tight as a tick...Most of my English guns needed adjustment at about 300 to 500 rounds as they would get slightly off the face...

I have seen a lot of so called tight English guns until you took the forend off then you got movement, thats off the face...

I had my English guns worked over every year by Lee LaBass or David Yale, just to be sure they wouldn't fail in Africa...a darn good practice btw...Never have had my Searcy worked over but did replace a soft firing pin...

BTW, what´s the idea behind using stainless steel for the actions on Searcy doubles? I would rather have a blued action.


Boha

OK ill bite where can one get a used searcy that is well used still functional and reasonably priced or at least much less than a new one functional is paramount but ok if it looks like shit

Have used a left-hand Searcy 500 Nitro Express 3 1/4 for a couple of buffalo. Worked well.

Highly recommend Searcy doubles.


Hammer

Crusher, here is a Searcy .700 NE that cost $40K new. I understand that the same thing today would cost $50K although I have not verified that with the mfr. The seller is offering the rifle at $25K. If you don't like the price, make him an offer via PM on this forum. His handle is 700nitro. I understand that the rifle can be changed from LH to RH for about $1500. Weight as I recall is 18 pounds.



This is a world record low price for a .700 NE double, and I doubt it will ever be repeated. For someone interested in a .700 NE, this is a chance to get one at an amazing price.

That sure is some gun

Due to the lack of rampaging brinks trucks localy I was thinking of something smaller but that is a great deal. 470 maybe 416 375 flanged

I know almost nothing of Doubles but have noticed no one brought up Pedersoli double rifes. Why?
Thanks

Allen i have a happy heart to see your interst in doubles. The Searcy is a well made rifle my son has an underlever in .470. I have a fine engraved 323 E Luxus Merkel that is fancier than the Searcy but not better made. This is a very personal thing, when you buy a double. My advice is take your time and find the one that fells right. When i bought my first one i was told choose a brand name that will take care of the engineering and saftey concern. Then find the one that floats in your hands, comes up to shoulder with out any adjustment from you. And feels much lighter than it realy is. Good hunting. Charlie

that is a great offer on my gun and i already have been getting some interest in the rifle so i wuldnt wait long if you wanna buy it

then you will have the ultimate stopper.

quote:

Originally posted by invader66:
I know almost nothing of Doubles but have noticed no one brought up Pedersoli double rifes. Why?
Thanks

Pedersoli is not in the same league as the guns being discussed here.

Oh, absolutely not! Though the Kodiak has been successfully rechambered to .450 #2 and .450 NE, that completely voids the warranty. We tried to get the factory to factory chamber for NE cartridges and they very politely but very firmly refused.

But can it be done? Yup. Would I do it? Yup. Would I rather have a Searcy? Oh, yeah! Unfortunately, I are such a budget bwana that it would be a choice of either the Searcy or the hunt I was going to take it on. So if I got the Searcy, I couldn't go hunting. If I couldn't go hunting, why would I want a Searcy. Is pathetic, you know.

Anyway, Butch is good people and makes good guns.

Go with Butch, go with Butch, go with Butch.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
! Though the Kodiak has been successfully rechambered to .450 #2 and .450 NE, that completely voids the warranty. We tried to get the factory to factory chamber for NE cartridges and they very politely but very firmly refused.
.

That is only because they have responsible mechanical engineers working there.

Just to shed a little daylight of reality on this love fest I thought I would chime in.

Searcy's could be the best of the low end doubles as far as strength and they are undoubtedly very accurate. My thinking is though that they look unfinished. They appear to be still in the 'white' and seem to need better fit and finish.

I know that the extra time to clean up the solder and to make sure the ribs are perfect costs money and that the aim is to keep the cost down. However Merkel, krieghoff and Chapuis seem to be able to do it.

I'll turn the sound down on my Computer now so let the screaming begin.

Hi Guys

I have a couple of buddies thta own 470 Searcy's , and they have had only one problem " double discharges " and that was not a nice thing too them either, they are both PH's using their guns a lot,

Another has a Chapuis 470 and he used his extensivley the last hree months, no problems ??

Another buddy has a Krieghoff 500, and he loves it, I will see whta it lokks like when he comes back from Tanzania this season.

I love the double and would give my left ... too own a 500 NE but personally the Searcy's are too heavy built too my taste, I have used a Merkel 470 on a hunt and found that perfect, although I have not seen their 500 yet/

Great insights, gentlemen, and I thank you!

Mickey, a little screaming never hurts anything! I've caused a few screaming fits around here myself ..........

It sounds like I need to pay a visit to Searcy, or at least look over Searcy doubles, plus a few others at SCI or DSC. I don't mind taking my time about it.

Of all the new doubles I've handled and looked over so far, I like Westley Richards the best, but man, I can do without that pricetag!

The hardest part of gun buying is balancing quality and price.........

AD