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I have a rifle chambered in 404 Jeffery. The rifle has one standing and 3 folding leafs. What is the recommended range for each leaf? Use for Cape buffalo and plains game. Thank you, Jim | ||
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Near, far and further. Only your targets can tell you. Most are marked but still...Only the targets can tell you. Happy shooting to find out! "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Jim, without knowing the make and year of your rifle and the round you plan to use, it's a bit of a guessing game. Chances are you will be using the standing leaf for most of your shots within 0-100 yards. After shooting it at a known distance with the loads you will be using, you might be able to fine tune it by replacing the front sight with a taller one or a shorter one depending on your needs. Good luck! | |||
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The rifle is a Remington 700 Action with a PacNor Barrell. The rear sites are brand new. I would use Swift A-frame 400 grn bullets. Thank you, Jim | |||
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Jim, since it is a custom built rifle, my guess is that you will have to do as Fury suggested. You will have to shoot it with your loads and see where they hit. You can probably adjust the windage by moving the rear sites but elevation adjustment will be made by adjusting the height of the front site. If your front sight is in a standard dovetail mount, it should be no problem. After you shoot and IF you need to adjust the sight, you can call Brownells and talk to one of their tech guys for advice. You will need to know the height of the actual front sight itself and the distance to the rear sight. They can tell you the correction needed, whether a higher or lower sight needed. I did this with an old Mauser. They are extremely helpful. They will have replacement sights if needed. Don't get stressed out. First thing is to develop a load you will be using or shoot factory ammo and see where it hits. You will be fine. Good luck. | |||
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The sites are not filed. So what I am asking of you experienced people is should my standing site be sighted in for 50 yards? 1st leaf 100 yards 2nd leaf 200 yards 3rd leaf 300 yards Or should I use different ranges? JIm | |||
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Jim, Solder, glue down or remove the other sights down and use the first. Learn to position the bead at distances. Really you be shooting less than 100 yards or less with iron sights. My .404 I have the bead in the very bottom of the V and my point of aim is just above top of bead at 100 yards or less. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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No sight in at 100 yards a couple of inches above bull. Then shoot 50 yards and 200 and see the results. Alot depends on your ammo. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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The 404 is capable of 400 yard shots if you are. It has enough energy to kill when it gets there. Not that I would be shooting at a buffalo at that range, but if you were after Eland or Kudu, and it was the last day of the hunt, and you could range the distance, and you had a good rest, I would take that shot. Or if your wounded buff was standing on a ridge 400 yards away and about to disappear over that ridge I would take that shot as well. The standing leaf is generally regulated at 50y or 50m if you are metric. You should make this one a wide open V for fast work in cover. The bullet should impact at 12 o clock on the bead, so you are not obscuring the aiming point with your bead. The bead is touching the V at roughly 4 o clock and 8 o clock. This will now work for all close shots out to 100. Might be 1" low at 100. Not consequential unless you are trying to kill a dik-dik. The rest are really up to you. 100yd leaf would not be discernibly higher than the 50. You could go 200, 300, 400. Or 150, 300, 500. Make the v finer. This way you will know if one of your leaves is up when you shoulder the rifle. Here's what I would do. Calc the trajectory for your chosen bullet and MV based on an iron-sighted rifle (1" above bore) sighted on at 50. and then translate that into moa holdover at the different ranges (or you can calc leaf height at the various ranges). Moa and leaf height are mathematically proportional. So if your longest range MOA holdover was 6 moa, I would assign the longest leaf to that. Then I would figure out what distance corresponded to 4 moa and set the next leaf to that. The last of the 3 leaves to 2 moa holdover. This would lead to some odd distances but as long as you know what they are you are fine. And your leaves would be in equal increments. You could then mark the leaves 2 moa, 4 moa and 6 moa. Or simply +2, +4 and +6. That way any future owner could figure the ranges for his choice of ammo. Or if Hornady changed their load, you would not have to re-engrave your leaves, just figure the new distances. If you are over 50 I would not bother with all of this because your front bead will be so fuzzy that you won't be precise enough to use the rifle at longer ranges. If not today, then certainly in a few years. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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FYI 2 moa increments are equivalent to 11 thou increments on a 20" sight radius (if my math is right). That's still pretty fine. Given that 2 moa is 4" at 200 and your Jeff is likely to be quite a bit lower than 4" at 200, your first folding leaf would be on at (I am guessing) around 125 yds and your 6moa leaf would give you 18" at 300 which might put you on the third leaf at around 250. You might even go to 3 moa increments if you wanted your last leaf to plonk them onto the bead at around 400. Anyway, the trajectory table will tell the story. Try to get a hold of some software that will tell you the drop in 10 yard increments. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Yeah except an iron sight .404 was always used as a close contact gun. If you want to shoot above a hundred yards buy yourself a scope. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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in all my years I have only witnessed one chap who owned a open sight .404 and could shoot at any distance. He shot a running buffalo and planted it. He knew his gun, trajectory and more importantly the anatomy of his quarry. That chap is AR's Surefire7 and practised hard before his safari. He is the ideal hunter to hunt with. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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The art of open sight shooting is all but lost unfortunately. I know a guy who can't shoot worth a damn with a scoped rifle, but is deadly with a Ruger no 1 375 with an aperture sight. He shot a warthog at 300 yards last trip, an eland at 375, and a bunch of other stuff besides. Scopes cause trigger panic and flinching, and are, for many people, harder to master than irons. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Exactly! Especially at our age! | |||
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+1 on what Fairgame said. I remove any leaves. I'd glue if they were on an expensive double. At some point, I GUARANTEE that one of those leaves will be UP when it's not supposed to. You won't know, and your shot will be way high. Could get someone into big trouble with DG. That's just my correct opinion. | |||
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I don’t have the experience as those posting prior, but I would listen to them. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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Way back when, before telescopic sights, when foolish men shot at long range, they used sights like these. To bad effect. The first blade (and there should be no more than two) should be zeroed at 50 yards. That will get you dead on from zero to 100 yards. If you want a second, you need the eyes for it, and if you have them, zero it at 200. The rest of them don't matter. They are in the hope and prayer category. I can't even imagine how anyone hoped to hit at longer ranges than 200, when the front sight bead would cover and obscure the entire animal. Only aperture rear sights zeroed with a six o'clock hold permit any degree of accuracy beyond 100 yards. And then only when the shooter is blessed with the vision of a hawk. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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We used to hunt with nothing but open sights. Each of us had his own idea of what is the best format. Both my grandfather and father used very shallow V, and a fine front bead. And that is what I have learnt to shoot with. We could shoot very well with them, mainly shooting birds, some at ridiculousness distances. But, we were very young, and had exceedingly good eye sights. Hunting in Africa, it is a whole new ball game. If I was hunting on a farm in South Africa, and was just going there for fun to try open sights, that is fine, as one can pick and choose his shots. Hunting in the wild, where one pays a lot of money, I really do not see myself wasting my time with open sights, and missing a lot of opportunities. | |||
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I was trained on scopes, other than pistols and rim fires before. Different irons are for diferent shooters. I can shoot a scope mounted rifle if I’m told how it’s sighted in. I need practice with irons if they’re not mine. Shotguns are natural. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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peat the range exercise. BTW, the .404 is a very under-appreciated calibre, and I think you will get a lot of enjoyment out of it.
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Dunno what happened there. Basically, you have made a good assumption, but you will have to confirm it with a bit of range time. Also, remember that whenever your load changes, you will have to repeat the range exercise. | |||
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I can only state from my own experience using an FN FAL 7.62 18"service rifle with "battle sights". Not the most accurate weapon. If you could not put almost all your rounds into an 8" circle at 300, you were off the team. At 500, 18". The front sight was a post. And yes it was as wide as the target at 300. But that's irrelevant. The secret is to imagine a needle point right in the middle of the uppermost edge of the front sight. That needle is your bullet. The rest of the front sight is irrelevant, it just serves to align the front sight with the rear notch or aperture. And it sits under the aiming point, not obscuring it. If you use the wrong leaf of course you are going to be off. With a scope you have to guess the holdover and you can be off with that as well. That's if the scope is not bumped or fogged or loose or the reticle broken or invisible due to glare. Scopes cause people to take longer shots than they should, and can also lead to jerking the trigger when the reticle is "on" and that never works. It's very unnerving to see your reticle wobbling all over the place as you apply pressure to the trigger. When the shot goes off, almost everyone closes their eye(s) as the picture suddenly jars. With iron sights, the sight picture is much steadier leading to a better squeeze, and it's much easier to keep your eye(s) open and to follow through. Besides it's satisfying to see the dust fly off the buffalo's shoulder. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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3 leaf iron sights are really cool and have a high CDI (Chicks Dig It) factor. So if you are planning on picking up chicks on safari, ignore my post. Otherwise read on  Consider the following: 1) Probably 1 in 100 shooters can shoot open sights effectively at 200 yards under field conditions as opposed to competition or range conditions. That probably goes to about 1 in 50 at 100 yds. 2) Just how much practice are you going to put in with your open sights at 100, 200, & 300 yards. 3) Just how much time are you going to spend shooting and filing sights? 4) What can you discern for an aiming point with your vision at 100, 200, 300 yards. I suspect you will find that at 50 yards anything smaller than a 3 inch circle is pretty tough to discern. What I am getting at is, can I even tell at say 100 yards whether I am actually aiming a 1/3 of the way up the animal or 1/2 the way up the animal when aiming when time is a factor. 4) The trajectory of the 404 with a 400 grn bullet zeroed at 75 yards using iron sights (assuming 3/4 inch above the bore) is approximately: 0 @ 25 +.25 @ 50 0 @ 75 -.75 @ 100 -2.0 @ 125 -3.75 @ 150 -9.0 @ 200 Given all of the above and as others have mentioned ignore the folding leaves. I would zero @ 75 yards. You will be good from bayonet distance to 125 yds. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Fixed sight set at 50/75yds, the remaining folding leafs super-glued and forgotten. Get to know your trajectories well using the same brand of ammo (you can do that at the range) and play the rest by ear. If you can hit the target (Buff) at 150yds+ know that the POI might/will be almost anywhere; a hit at a disappearing and possibly wounded Buff is better than no hit. | |||
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Thank you everyone for the wonderful advice. I need to go back through and re-read everything and digest the information. I will hunt with a scope but the irons would be for backup in case I had problems with the scope. Thank you again, Jim | |||
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