.375 350 gr. PP Weldcore Woodleigh Bullets - Are they good for buffalo? Can you shoot them at starting velocities of 2700 fps and still get good results on buffalo? AIU

"They are good but if you want to propel them at excessive speeds then you might be best served with a Barnes X or Mono bullet." Response Australian Hunter.

I posed essentially the same question to Nosler Bullets regarding their 300 ACCUBOND bullet - that is, I asked do you foresee any problems using the ACCUBOND bullet for Cape buffalo even when fired at 2900 fps. 200 fps more than what I propose firing the Woodleigh. They answered..."it would be fine, except the buffalo would not like it." Seems Nosler has confidence in their bonded softs, but Woodleigh doesn't. WHY SHOULD THAT BE? AIU

I think it might be to fast. Cut thebullets length wise and see how little is in the lower half. Not much more then a 100grs.

Mike

Too high vilosity can result in inconcistant bullet performance at impact.

Seems real fast to me.

I hope Mr. Cape Buff isn't giving out speeding tickets.

Just going by Woodleigh specs which say the max impact velocity recommended for the 350g PP is 2400 fps. On a tough animal like a cape buffalo, I wouldn't exceed that. If you want to go faster with a 350g bullet, the North Fork Soft point would be my choice. At 2900 fps with a 300g bullet a Swift A-Frame or TSX would probably be good picks.

That being said, I'm planning to use the 350g Woodleigh PP at 2400 fps on brown bear this fall if they shoot well in my rifle. If not, I'll shoot factory 300g Swift A-Frames.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
.375 350 gr. PP Weldcore Woodleigh Bullets - Are they good for buffalo? Can you shoot them at starting velocities of 2700 fps and still get good results on buffalo? AIU

"They are good but if you want to propel them at excessive speeds then you might be best served with a Barnes X or Mono bullet." Response Australian Hunter.

I posed essentially the same question to Nosler Bullets regarding their 300 ACCUBOND bullet - that is, I asked do you foresee any problems using the ACCUBOND bullet for Cape buffalo even when fired at 2900 fps. 200 fps more than what I propose firing the Woodleigh. They answered..."it would be fine, except the buffalo would not like it." Seems Nosler has confidence in their bonded softs, but Woodleigh doesn't. WHY SHOULD THAT BE? AIU

I have not yet had the good fortune to hunt Africa but I would pose this question to the guys in the Big Bore Forum under the thread entitled Terminal Bullet Performance.

They are either geniuses or a great group of comedians. Most of their tech talk(ok, all) is so far over my head, I can't be sure.

chuck, got some 350 Northforks - way too long for my use. The use too much case capacity. They are like pencils!! AIU

First off, I will admit to being a little biased on the Nosler AB. Shot 43 animals from jackal to eland with the 260 in my 375 H&H in my first two trips to Namibia. The performance was incredible, and I consider it one of the finest PG bullets out there for the 375.

Here's the results of a 260 grain AB thru both shoulders on a huge blue bull. Recovered just under the hide on off side. Shot distance 60 yards, and recovery about the same. Factory Federal premium so velocity should have been 2650-2700 fps. It was a noticably larger animal than any Cape Buffalo I saw on my 2009 trip to Zim.

Here are the only bullets I recovered out of all of the animals for those two trips also.





That said, I agree with everyone else that 2900 fps might be pushing it a little too fast. The expansion is quite rapid, and penetration could be severly reduced. Weight retention was only 60-70%, but almost double caliber. Have not tried any 300's on game, but I'm sure it would do the job.Just don't try to overdo it!

I'm definitely not a technically inclined hunter, as long as the sharp end is pointing towards the animal I'm reasonably happy. But having shot basically all the "vanilla" plains game available in SA with a 7by57, .338 win mag and 30-06 at different times, the quest for speed perplexes me.

The 4 PH's that hunted with us in ZIM last year seemed almost indulgent when 2 of the party started quoting bullet speed etc. Between them they must have 40 years hunting experience and not one of them had any clue at what speed their bullets where traveling. I actually saw them swopping ammo at the range when we sighted our rifles, and there was no thought past "solid or soft"

Please advise where I'm going wrong ?

I would use North Forks or Swifts on buffalo. Don't forget you may be shooting through some brush to get to the animal. I love Accubonds but want something a little tougher for buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by lmj1975:
I'm definitely not a technically inclined hunter, as long as the sharp end is pointing towards the animal I'm reasonably happy. But having shot basically all the "vanilla" plains game available in SA with a 7by57, .338 win mag and 30-06 at different times, the quest for speed perplexes me.

The 4 PH's that hunted with us in ZIM last year seemed almost indulgent when 2 of the party started quoting bullet speed etc. Between them they must have 40 years hunting experience and not one of them had any clue at what speed their bullets where traveling. I actually saw them swopping ammo at the range when we sighted our rifles, and there was no thought past "solid or soft"

Please advise where I'm going wrong ?

Very few guides, African, American, or any other place, have very much detailed knowledge of guns and ammunition. All they know is that when you shoot the animal in the right place it usually dies. They typically prefer to get within such range of the animal that the three or four MOA difference in impact points that is often encountered when switching ammunition in a gun is irrelavent on an animal with a 12" vital zone that is less than 75 yards away. Looking to a guide for expertise in ammunition is like looking to a heavy machinery operator to understand the thermodynamics of diesel combustion. All either one needs to know is that it usually works when the operator does his part.

We gun nuts are far too particular about the fine points of ballistics, both internal and external. Although I happen to enjoy the subject a great deal, regardless of how perfect or imperfect a bullet/cartridge/gun may theoretically be for a particular type of game, most anything works about as well as another so long as the "operator" puts it in the right place.

AIU,

To answer your question I would not go after buffalo with a 300 ACB at those velocities you mentioned. It might work perfectly but I'd be much more comfortable with a TSX, SAF or NF. What happened to your stash of FailSafes? Those should be perfect at that velocity.

Mark

Mark, my stash of Failsafes are safe and will be used again. I was hoping to make the first shot with a premium bonded soft, followed-up with the Failsafes, which are close to being solids. Regards, AIU

I never killed a cape buffalo but i killed hundreds of water buffalos and quite a few cebues with the 375hyh ,besides that i saw many more taken by clients .I believe the work can be done but at that speed i prefer a woodleight solid or a north folk .Sgraves took
some bufalos with me using solids in 375hyh ,you can ask him about his reloads.

300 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaws...Factory Loaded by Msr. Federal at 2350 FPS...Why overthink it?

Jeff

Of importance Nosler lists the upper limit of the velocity performance envelope to be UNLIMITED for both the Accubond and Partition bullets!!

Does anybody out there have actual experience with these Nosler bullets to disput this?

Regards, AIU

At 2900 fps I think the Accubonds would be dangerous to use on buffalo. At that velocity they would expand immediately and may skid off on a frontal shot or not make it through a shoulder.

I think this is a concern with all traditional expanding bullets---pushing them too fast.

I will give an example. I shot a lion with a 416 Wby, 400 grain A-frame at 2700 fps. Diagnonal shot through the shoulder at 50 yards but instead of dropping, he took off. After getting him on the followup we found the bullet, perfectly expanded and looking like a magazine advertisement, under the skin behind the opposite hind leg. The shoulder bones were destroyed--nothing but gravel---but after expanding immediately and destroying the shoulder, this bullet "slid" under the skin all the way around the lion without entering the chest cavity. I have had other similar experiences with traditional bullets pushed too fast. This is one reason the 378 Wby had such a terrible reputation-----a dramatic kill one time----a horrible surface wound the next.

Stick to the Failsafes. Monometals kill with velocity. At 2900 fps the Failsafe will not just leave a small hole. It will work like a charm.

The velocity is too high for the Accubond -- it's my favorite bullet, but I restrict it to under 2500fps to keep it effective. With too much speed, it tends to break up on heavy bone at short ranges.

If you want to go with higher speeds, I'd use the the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw or the Woodleigh expanding bullet.

With Buff, however, my true preference is for solids. But, that's entirely another discussion.

I would use the 300 grain NF bonded soft point and not worry about a follow up with your Fail Safes.

the NF have the largest (safe) velocity envelope of any premium hunting bullet.

At least they sure do in 458 caliber, and I tested about everything.

the TBBC are not what they used to be.

I could get 2700 fps with the 300 grain NF in my 375 imp with 22 1/2 inch barrel. I can get 2800 with a Bitterroot but they are shorter.

Andy

A 300 grain A Frame will kill a buffalo stone bloody dead at impact velocities of less that 2400 fps. The 350 grain Woodleigh will do the same. You do not need high velocity to kill buffalo. You need penetration. The aforementioned bullets will absolutely continue to slaughter buffalo as they have been doing for years at those velocities.

As mentioned, if I were gonna push a buff bullet that fast, it would be a TSX or an A Frame. Never used North Fork. Never saw a reason to.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
chuck, got some 350 Northforks - way too long for my use. The use too much case capacity. They are like pencils!! AIU

Really, I think they would be good in a 375 Weatherby, maybe just too long for the case capacity of the 375 H&H? I'm guessing you could drive them at 2550 fps out of a 375 Weatherby.

Chuck, yes, I could drive them at 2550 fps, even more at the muzzle. But, these things are 1.6" long. Do you think 1:12" twist is enough to stabilize them? I don't know. Do you have some Bitter Roots or TBBCs you'd like to trade? Warm regards, AIU

I was wondering about the same thing (twist rate). I have about 47 570g .510 caliber Swift A-Frames to trade if you have a 50 cal.

No 50 cal, but I have a .416 UltraCAT. AIU

I shot my Buff with a 300 Swift AF at 2675 fps starting velocity. Shot was about 35 yds and it blew right through him and created a devastating hole. He went about 20 yds. I really like that bullet in 300 grains. It was very accurate in my rifle as well. I'd prefer that over the AB and I really like Accubonds otherwise.
Lee

if You will shot on heart, lungs or spine go a head ! otherwise if You need a SNC (brain) shot bring some solids (Barnes or North folk). Good Luck !!! Guille

I don't know what twist rate it is, but I have a pre-64 Model 70 in .375 and when I went from a 300 gr TBBC to the Woodleigh 350 grain PP and solid the thing became a tack driver. So apparently some rifles can benefit from the longer bullet.

AI,

the 500 grain tsx 458 is 1.6 inches long also. It failed to stabilize in a 1/10 twist 450 dakota at 2,400 fps. (2880 rev per second).

Your 350 grain NF in a 1-12 would have rps equal to muzzle velocity.

The NF will expand more uniformly that the TSX which lost petals as it tumbled which may help, but I would just use a 300 grain NF and not have to worry about it.

there was a reason that the original inventor and owner of NF did not exceed SD 300 in the solid base or monometal bullet.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Of importance Nosler lists the upper limit of the velocity performance envelope to be UNLIMITED for both the Accubond and Partition bullets!!

Does anybody out there have actual experience with these Nosler bullets to disput this?

Regards, AIU

AI I can’t say about the .375 Nosler Partion’s top end velocity wise, but I can tell you that the only “ONE SHOT KILLS” I have had where the brain or spine was not hit on cape Buffalo have been with the .375 H&H, 300 gr Nosler partition at the normal speed of 2550 fps! The penetration was dead strait line from right chest to front of the left hind quarter (about 5 feet) just under the skin. Weight retained was 280 grs.

I don’t know what rifle you are using but there is absolutely no need for that high velocity for buffalo with a 375! If however you are using one of the “HOT ROCK” magnums by ROY, then my recommendation would be a Swift A-frame, or the Forth Fork soft point! I don’t think the North Fork lead and copper soft point is any longer than the Partition. The CPS and FPS are longer but they are solids.


In any case good hunting and enjoy your safari! Wish I was there for the shooting!

........................................... ...................................

I just visited with Nosler (phone conversation) and brought up all these issues. They were well aware of the arguments pro and con and they remain VERY CONFIDENT in their recommended velocity envelopes with an unlimited top end. For Cape buffalo their first choice would be the 300 gr. partition followed-up by their 300 solid. The 300 Accubond is their second choice with the same follow-up. The partition is deliberately not bonded, because they get greater penetration without bonding (that is, vs the Swift A-frame, which is bonded).

We talked about Woodleigh (WL) bullets and they point out that the WL is made differently than their Accubond and these difference in manufacturing explained why the WL will more likely pancake.

AIU

I, for one, would not risk life and limb on the advise of these Nosler guys who are, by the way, also in the business of selling and promoting their bullets.

Ask ten old African hands (Halimore, Duckworth, Hurt, et al) about these scorching fast "Americanized" loadings and I bet you'll get ten resounding answers of "Too bloody fast" accompanied by rolling of eyes and silent prayers that the client and his super hot handloads do not get someone maimed or killed.

I don't know how many buffalo have been shot by the folks responding to this thread (I've killed 7 BTW), but the consensus is that 2900 fps is too fast. Speed does not kill buffalo any deader, it only increases the possibility of bullet failure and insufficient penetration.

Do not drink the kool aid.

AIU,

I've taken quite a lot of game with Partitions in the past and I've been very happy with their preformance. The explosive expansion and fragmentation of the front part of bullet does incredible tissue damage and the back portion of the bullet does penetrate very well. The Accubond is supposed to retain the same amount of bullet mass as the Partition with the same explosive initial expansion and fragmentation. How the Acubond does that with a completely different bullet design is a mystery to me but I guess it does. My consideration is that if you shoot the buffalo through the shoulders will the shoulder absorb all the initial expansion and fragmentation. I think it very well might giving you essentially a light weight solid to penetrate the vitals. When you up the impact velocity by 300-400 fps it only makes sense that expansion and frangmentation will happen more quickly.

If you have to drive a 300 gr. bullet at 2900 FPS I think you really need the TSX and just forget the solids for buffalo.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the comments. In fact, I thank everybody for their input. This is a good discussion.

Nosler has been making bullets for a long time, and they are a strong candidate for the No 1 premium bullet maker in the World. They don't make claims for no reason, and I'm sure they're aware of the "truth in advertizing" laws in the USA. Moreover, if their claims were excessive, they'd certainly hear about it real quick and have to make adjustments or face a ton of bad PR. lost reputation, and lost sales. Their confidence suggests to me they're not getting much negative feedback about their impact velocity envelope.

While it's true that one doesn't need 2900 fps to kill a Cape buffalo, it's also true you don't need 375, 416, 458, 460, 500, etc. mega-canons either. Many buffalo hunters use these big guns, when the old trusty .375 H&H will work fine...correct?

I'm of the one gun, one cartridge do it all type - that is, keep it simple and effective when you travel. I haven't made up my mind yet for my next Africa trip to Tanzania and South Africa, but I'll be looking at using a 375 Ackley Improved firing one of the following bullets: 300 gr. TSX, 300 Failsafe, 300 TBBC, 300 Accubond, 300 Partition, 350 Woodleigh, 275 gr. Bitter Root, and/or 250 TTSX. I'll pick one that will clobber a buffalo, but also slay an eland at 400 yrds. without having to rainbow it in. I may load up two bullet types.

I really like the looks and accuracy of the the 350 WL, but if what you guys say is true, and it'll pancake on the shoulder of a buffato at an impact velocity of 2600 fps, then it's unfortunate and a design failure that Geoff should correct. I can't accept 2600 fps or even 2700 fps as excessive velocity.

I'm also having a barrel made in 416 RUM, which will switch-out with or replace the 375 AI barrel. With the 416 RUM cartridge I'll be looking seriously at the 400 Partition, 400 TBBC, 400 TSX, and 350 TTSX. I haven't evaluated this gun, and this project may or many not work out, but I'll see.

Regards, AIU

Let me inject a bit of blasphemy into this discussion: Unless a bullet completely loses its structural integrity ("blows up"), it generally will penetrate deeper the higher its velocity. Lots of variables make this hypothesis arguable, and bullets often behave in unpredictable ways, but I'm quite certain that under controlled conditions this statement holds water.

Thus, the question becomes, "Will a Nosler Accubond blow up on a buffalo if fired at 2900 fps". I don't know the answer to that question and I'm sure there are too many variables to accurately predict the bullet's behaviour in every circumstance, but Nosler appears to be staking its reputation on their position that it will not.

I seriously doubt that a user would likely be more successful in taking a buffalo if that bullet were fired at 2550 fps than at 2900 fps.

I say shoot one with it...then give us a report.