In the wake of the Leveraction debate, I thought this article might be of value:

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

You know you've just stirred the hornets nest Nick!

Bakes

What is the max safe pressure for a 444 Marlin in a M94 Winchester?

Jim

Finally, a scholarly look at the Marlin and the 45/70. No smoke and mirrors, just technical data.

Thanks for sharing

Rusty
We band of brothers!

HI,

That is why I am using a win86. Thanks,Kev

Kev,
I don't understand your post inasmuch as everyone acknowledges the Marlin is a stronger action than the 86 by a good deal. Not an arguement post, just wanted to bring that to your attention for what it's worth to you....

Seems to be a lot like a Todd E type of techical post. Was that Todd E's problem he wasn't published?

Sorry, for the troll post. I have had a stereotypical Monday. I needed to vent. Nickudu, I found the piece to be well written and technical accurate. This was a nice example of benchmarking.

SRS

I don't think anyone is under the illusion that the Marlin 336/1895 action is stronger than the 1886.

Just a point of illustration - and I believe Atkinson has remarked on this away back when - the strength of the Marlin 336 and its derivatives is more than adequate but this action does have one glaring flaw: IT IS TOO SHORT! I find that one must be aware of OAL in such calibers as the 45/70 or you can't run them through the magazine. I love the Marlin, especially the 1894 in 45/70 but I also think they kick like a mule. That is just MOHO and anyone else is welcome to disagree. That will not, however, change the length of the 336 action.
"Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot!"

HI,

I beg to differ, the win 86 is stronger than the Marlin. Thanks,Kev

Kev,
I give up! Hope your right.

I think the biggest question on the strength of an Winchester 1886 vs Marlins 336 is WHICH 1886? The original 1886's made for black powder, the later 1886's with the nickel steel "smokeless" barrels, the redesigned Winchester Model 71, the Browning copies or the latest Japanese versions that Winchester has been selling. The original 1886's and even the "smokeless" versions probably aren't as strong as a Marlin - you might get lucky and get a receiver and barrel made without the inclusions and variations in the steel that would be stronger than a Marlin, but I wouldn't count on it. The Browning and Japanese versions with their modern steels are stronger than a Marlin, generally considered good for 45,000-50,000 psi. The Winchester 71 design is actually weaker than the 1886 due to the slight slant put on the locking lugs creating sideways forces instead of the nice square locking lugs of the 1886 design.

Sorry, double post.

[ 10-02-2002, 02:33: Message edited by: CMcDermott ]

I really thought the marlin was stronger than that. But then thats why I use an 1886 too. And yes, it is stronger than the marlin.
I think he could have dwelled a bit on bolt thrust. Ackley did an experiment where he completely removed the locking lug from a 94 Winchester, and safley fired the gun. As a result, I listen less to stories of problems with thrust, on low power straight wall cartridges at least.
I have seen pressure sign too, flattened primers when working up the high power stuff, even have a few 45-70's that have headstamps that are hard to read. Not saying you should be there with your gun, and after reading that, definately not in a Marlin. didn't like doing it with mine! ouch!
Nice technical artical, good read for Marlin aflictionardo's.
I've stopped messing with the hot stuff, don't need it on this continent anyway, and it burns way too much powder.

What was said about the earlier 1886's is true, they were weaker steels. But by design, this is a stronger action than the marlin. IMHO.
There is a serial number break (I have forgotten) when they went to high strength steels. The late models are very strong. The new models are probably even srtonger.

John Y Cannuk,
Well said. The 86 has a much stronger locking mechanism than the marlin. The new 86's that winchester is selling are brute strong. There are four levels of 45/70 loads; 1. trapdoor (28K), 2. marlin (42k), 3. new production 86 win (50-55k), 4. ruger no1/siamese mauser (60k).

HI,

You know I have been through this so many times it is funny. I have said time and time again the new win 86 of 71 are stronger than a Marlin and that is just a simple fact.If someone will take the time and talk to a good gunsmith he will tell you the same thing, MR. Ricks, MR Clay or Mr Sundles, BBA take your pick, they will tell you so to.And they sure know more about levers than anyone here as they do this for there living and have for a very long time.And as for MACD37, IF YOU SWIM AS WELL AS YOU KNOW LEVERS YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT CROCKS AS YOU WILL DROWN. Thanks,Kev

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 'Trapper':
I love the Marlin, especially the 1894 in 45/70...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but the '94 is too short for the 45-70 case. Perhaps you meant the '95?

In any case, both the Marlin and Winchester actions are more then suitable for the rounds chambered. In any case, I'm also told the Win 86 (new versions) are slightly stronger then a Marlin.
Its a simple matter of keeping within the working pressures of each type of action, no big deal. ~~~Suluuq

RustyGun:
Must have been osmosis as I had a '94 laid out across the bench when I typed that - A Winchester, not a Marlin - and I did indeed intend to say the 1895.
You just can not proof these things too much.
"Shoot straight, shoot safe and shoot a lot!"

For the record, the Win 94 Big Bore in 307 Win, 356 Win, 375 Win, and 444 Marlin are all rated at 52,000 c.u.p., which equates to roughly handing 49,000 psi of chamber pressure. The Win 94 BB will handle bolt thrust in the 23,000 psi range versus 17,000 in an 1895 psi for the 444 Marlin chambering. The 444 Marlin, in my estimation, is a great tube feed round. The brass is simply a cut 30-06 with a semi rimmed configuration. As strong as it gets for any tube feed brass made. Many JDJ Widcats are formed from the 444 Marlin brass.

One comment, after reading the data shared by many here on African Big Game, I am now convinced that a tube feed lever in 444 Marlin or 45/70 is not enough gun for big cape buff. The 45/110 and 50/110s that are being built by Dave Clay on 86s have merit for such tasks, but man the recoil could be challenging. Then theres the downfall of open sight use (top eject 1886 Win) verses a great fixed 2.5x20mm or variable 1.5-5x20mm scope. If I'm a client, I want a scoped rifle. Then, I would like a fairly hard driving 2300-2500fps .416 or .458 bolt gun to takle that type of game.

Take Care
rossi

Rossi,

Do yourself a favor and read some of the posts put out by Vincent Lupo. He recently came back from hunting Africa, and did the "Big Six" with a Marlin 45/70. You might also want to find some of the posts from Rob Duffield, the PH that will be hosting the AR Cape Buff hunt. He has personally hunted with the 45/70 for DG and has expressed no qualms in his clients using the 45/70 for the taking of DG. He, as I'm sure of many other PH's, expect that their clients can place their shots.
For the record, again, I'm not an advocate for the use of the Lever Gun, in 45/70, for the hunting of DG. I will however, do the buff, if I get the chance to hunt him with a 45/70. (After winning the AR Raffle).

Roger QSL

STOP BEATING ME!

LOL, "Deadhorse", indeed. - Dan

HI,

DEAD HORSE, no wants to, but you guys keep on with a arguement that has already been prove wrong.Stop posting this discussion Thanks,Kev

Roger,

Best wishes on your buff hunt. I am not saying one can't kill cape buff with a 45/70 load.

All I'm saying is there are certainly better tools for the job and a reduction in risk and margin of error.

I love my Win 94 BB in 444 Marlin and have utterlly flattend 600 lbs bull elk with it. I know the capability of the rifle and the loadings and would not hesitate to take any thin skin animal with it. This includes the big hump back bears of Alaska and even African lion.

The thick skin stuff is a different story in my mind. If a 458 Win Mag punching a 500 grain RN at 2000 fps have been deemed of questionable performance on thick skin game, that says it all for me.

Again, all success to some degree in condusive to handling ones firearm, bullet integrity and the range one attempts to make the clean kill.

By the way, I have read Vincent's posts. To each his own glory or regret. In Vincent's case, much glory has been celebrated, which is good.

Have a great, safe and sucessful hunt.

Sincerely,
rossi

Dan,

I'm glad someone appreciates my humor, thanks!

DH, you should have posted that several threads ago! Very nice sir! A much needed laugh

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[ 10-04-2002, 18:20: Message edited by: Rusty ]