maybe its for the Tsetse's, but wait there isn't a single tsetse there.

Sort of like the way you verbally abuse RN solids with out any proof? I was just trying to make a point in a humorous way. Please apologies to your Iron whatever for me...

465H&H

quote:

That great post by Vlam reminded me of Herr Professor Norbert Hansen using plastic water containers sandwiched between ~1.5" thick particle-board slabs. That is a tough medium.
Would a Luddite also accuse Norbert of whoring?

No more than I accused you of whoring. I was talking about the Iron whore giving untrue data on the performance of RN solids on elephant heads. If Norbert's test medium gaves as inaccurate reults as yours, then yes it is also a whore. But not Norbert or you! Hopefully, I will never resort to calling people names as you have and limit such comments to machines or test mediums.

465H&H

Regarding the post showing the flattened tails of round nose jacketed bullet, I've recovered a bunch, and believe that they tumbled. In fact I believe that round noses have a strong tendency to tumble after they have lost the great portion of their velocity.

I've seen other evidence of tumbled bullets too, including one bullet track visible under a buff's skin.

One thing I haven't seen is any evidence of those tail flattened tumbled bullets veering off course. Each was found where it ought to be found given straight line penetration.

FWIW, I think a major reason truncated cone flat noses out penetrate round noses consistently is that the truncated cone flat noses are not prone to tumbling.

Give me a Woodleigh and I'll be eager to hunt with it. Give me a North Fork or GS Custom and I'll be eager to hunt with it. Both will do the job. I think the flat nose solids do it better, but either will do the job.

BTW, I'm writing of recovered bullets from buff and elephants, ie, real rellevant media that noy only duplicates the real thing, it is the real thing. Reports of performance from media that consistently provide results contrary to the real, actual field results in the real thing simply indidcate that the artificial media doesn't duplicate and isn't a reasonable representation of the real and relevent media.

JPK

Then the only explanation is that Marc Watts flinched and missed, TWICE.

Maybe he better stick to his .375 like Saeed, or learn to shoot. Bwana "One Shot" my ass!

Much of the evidence of tumbling in RN bullets is due to the sometimes observed flattening of the tail of the bullets. The assumption becomes if it shows flattening then it tumbled. If it doesn't show flattening then it didn't tumble. Since FN bullets seldom show flattened tail sections they didn't tumble. What we forget is that the tails of RN steel jacketed bullets have less strengrth than solid FN mono-metal bullets. Is it possible that the FN mono-metal bullets also tumble but because of their inherent strength th tail doesn't deform. One could make the case that if the tail doesn't deform then it may swing more widely than a bullet whose tail gives a little with the side pressure from bone.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Much of the evidence of tumbling in RN bullets is due to the sometimes observed flattening of the tail of the bullets. The assumption becomes if it shows flattening then it tumbled. If it doesn't show flattening then it didn't tumble. Since FN bullets seldom show flattened tail sections they didn't tumble. What we forget is that the tails of RN steel jacketed bullets have less strengrth than solid FN mono-metal bullets. Is it possible that the FN mono-metal bullets also tumble but because of their inherent strength th tail doesn't deform. One could make the case that if the tail doesn't deform then it may swing more widely than a bullet whose tail gives a little with the side pressure from bone.

465H&H

465H&H,

Some truth there, but I've found some of the RN's sideways, with and without evidence of flatenning. I've found plenty nose on too, with no evidence of flattening.

The one with the visible track that showed tumbling on at least two planes had no flattening, btw. Tracked straight as an arrow, despite the tumbling.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Then the only explanation is that Marc Watts flinched and missed, TWICE.

Maybe he better stick to his .375 like Saeed, or learn to shoot. Bwana "One Shot" my ass!

Braining an elephant isn't nearly as simple or as easy as it looks.

Hitting a five or six inch disk from 20yds is simple stuff. Hitting the same disk anywhere from a foot to three or more feet behind the POI isn't nearly as easy. The correct POI changes by feet as the elephant moves its head. Even if it isn't moving, its hard to hit without experience since no photo or even video properly shows the spacial relationship of the landmarks on the head. Their relationship really only becomes clear when you're standing next to your first dead cow or bull, and each is very different.

I haven't seen the clip, so I don't know what the shot angles were or if it was moving, but there a few concrete landmarks on the front of an elephant's head from which to judge where the brain is. Especially if you haven't had the oportunity to stand next to a dead one.

For example, the eyes don't do it since there is great relative motion vs the brain when the elephant lifts or drops its head. The fron of the zygomatic arch obscures the rear, which is a good reference point that isn't visible straight on. And the fron of the arches has great relative motion vs the rear or the brain...

So Mark Watts missed. Simple as that.

JPK

It is true from my experience that there isn't any out side marks on an elephants head to use for an aiming point in all situations. A also believe this holds true for side brain shots as well as frontal shots. How high the elephant holds its head, how much above or below the elephant you are standing, how close you are to the elephant and how tall the elephant is all affect the point of bullet entry and these pertain to both side and frontal shots. Most books that show where to aim on head shots assume that the elephant is on the same level as the hunter and the elephant is 15 to 20 yards or so away. That seldom happens in the real world. I have been pretty lucky in either killing or knocking down elephants with brain shots. I primarily use the method described by Ron Thompson and that is to use the front of the zygomatic arch to guide me to a point a couple of inches above the rear of the zygomatic arch where the ear hole is located. If you look at the inside of an elephants ear you can see a bit of a funnel appearance near the upper portion of the inside of the ear. The bottom of the funnel leads right into the ear opening. That is the closest thing to an outside aim point that I know of.

465H&H

465H&H,

I've had trouble seeing the funel at the moment when the elephant turns to me. Maybe its because the ears are moving or maybe I'm just not seeing it. I try to use the front of the arches and the head angle to sort out where the ear holes will be.

What are you looking for and seeing when you try to pick up the funnel at the shot? Any notable feature on the ear?

JPK

Jesus, this is funny! Seriously, I can't watch the tele any more. Pure entertainment here.

I'm a Ganyana/Doctari convert. Shoot everyfuckingthing with a 9.3. If that don't kill 'em, then go get the .400!

In the end the only way to successfully brain elephant without on the spot coaching is "seeing" the brain. Everything else is just hoping for the best. Using external references like the zygomatic arches just ain't going to cut it when they is coming for you through the jess!

The reference to zygomatic arches is nonsense anyway because the front of the arches can be much above or much below the brain on a frontal shot. And that is all you can see at close range.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
In the end the only way to successfully brain elephant without on the spot coaching is "seeing" the brain. Everything else is just hoping for the best. Using external references like the zygomatic arches just ain't going to cut it when they is coming for you through the jess!

The reference to zygomatic arches is nonsense anyway because the front of the arches can be much above or much below the brain on a frontal shot. And that is all you can see at close range.

Will, no disagrement from me, except that the front of the arches PLUS a read on the attitude of the head, (ie front of the arches are above the brain when its head is up and its peering down at you, below when it is head down and way below when it is coming) ought to provide some useful guidance. But your right, no time for it in the thick stuff or when they're coming.

I hope to see the brain suspended someday, sooner than later at that! I believe I was just about there when I killed nine in '06, but I also think I've gotten stale and need to relearn to see the brain.

And so my scheduled trip!

Will, do you "see" the brain yet?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
FN solids are better than RN solids.
Bonded core expanding bullets are better than non-bonded core lead bullets.
Driving a car is better than riding a horse.

that really depends on where one ultimately needs to go & how one chooses to hunt.... ...

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

Will, do you "see" the brain yet?

JPK

Sometimes! I'm afraid seeing it for certain on frontal shots is going to take more eles to get that done.

Much easier done with standing elephant and an unhurried shot.

A crystal skull paper weight seems to be in order.

A clear plastic or glass elephant skull with ear holes, eye sockets, zygomatic arches, and detachable ears and trunk and tusks.
A wire running between the ear holes with a brain visible in the middle.
All the bigger the better.
Bull and cow.

Sort of like a Mr. Potato Head for professional small boys to play with.

A complimentary copy of Will's book would be included with each one.

When I was a kid I assembled the "Visible Man" model as well as the "Visible Woman" model. Same sort of thing would be nice. I calculate the potential market for a "Visible Elephant Brain" model as about 10 guys on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
When I was a kid I assembled the "Visible Man" model as well as the "Visible Woman" model. Same sort of thing would be nice. I calculate the potential market for a "Visible Elephant Brain" model as about 10 guys on AR.

If you market it through Safari Press, and make it suitable for display in an office, I am confident you can easily double those numbers. Take a booth at DSC and you will sell another ten. Which will put you only $$$$$$ in the hole.

Really I expect you could sell more than a hundred. How many DVDs did Buzz sell? But enough to cover develoment, production, and marketing costs? Hmmm.

Rip,
I missed the point? I don't think so..If the bullet slide by and TOUCHED the brain then you get a knockout, if you miss by a fraction you got a live elephant IMO....in fact that is also Johans opinnion if I recall several conversations we have had..but the bottom line is a miss is a miss..you must hit the brain and Woodleighs are good bullets and the rest is B.S. and Wills not slurring he is just frustrated with you and that makes him stutter!

500 grs. that just pure A horse is better than a car for your information and hay is less expensive than gas and diamonds are less expensive than gas, and gold is less expensive than gas, so are marbles! Have a good day mate!

JPK,
I have no problem seeing the heart and lungs but for some reason it takes me too long to visualize (get the x-ray vision working) to make it useful on head shots. Maybe one day although I am sure I will run out of money before I can count on being able to "see" the brain. What I do find useful is to locate the ear holes they don't move in relation to the brain as the elephant moves its head. The front of the zygomatic arch mearly serves as a guide to where the ear hole is located not as an aiming point. The ear funnel always ends at the ear hole no matter what position the head is held. I simply use all as guides to the ear hole location. aim for a mid-point between the ear holes and you will reach the rear of the brain assuming that you can hit it in all the excitement. The one time I missed and went too high the elephants head was back lit by the rising sun and I could not see the funnel I shouldn't have taken that shot. Although I have missed making a killing shot on some occasions the shot has been close enough to knock elephant down or down and out.

465H&H

465H&H,

I don't have that much trouble braining eles, or in the absence knocking them down, but I haven't been perfect for sure. Very close and moving makes the shot most challenging for me.

When I killed nine elephants in 2006, I felt like I was seeing the brain but now I don't.

Also, I'll do my best to see that lower portion of the funnel but I don't recall seing it previuosly.

JPK

RIP
one problem is you assumed the bullet vered of caurse/tumbled...how can you be so sure it tumbled/vered of caurse...where humans are involved there is room for error, but i agree i rather would have used a flat nose mono
Daniel

quote:

Originally posted by M 98:
...where humans are involved there is room for error, but i agree i rather would have used a flat nose mono
Daniel

Yep, Voltaire didn't write the script for Delta Royale, and the story ain't Candide.
Just working the schtick here.