There has been a lot of talk lately on hunting in Masailand Tanzania, and most of it has been about dissapointing areas and opportunities and not being a good place to hunt during the dry months.

So, I wanted to let those that are interested to be a little more informed about Masailand. Not all of Masailand is hard hunting during the dry months of September and October, and it just all depends on which areas or what outfitter you go hunting with. You have heard of a bad recent report and just wanted to show you that some of us have had great hunts during the dry months and just goes to show that you can not speak in general about Masailand. Some areas are great and some are not, and you just have to know which areas and which outfitters to consider for your hunt there.

Here are some pictures from out last client that hunted in our Masailnd blocks (Lolkisale & Lobo) during October 8-28. I have posted below some of the pictures of the main animals that were taken for you all to see that there is great hunting.

Bony Piece with his 3rd day lion
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Bony Piece & PH Brian van Blerk with 8th day leopard
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Bony Piece & PH Brian with a nice 40" Buffalo on 1st day.
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Bony Piece & PH Brian with a great E.A. Greater Kudu
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Bony & Diane Piece & PH Brian with a 32" Oryx
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A Great East African Impala
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There were other animals taken like zebra, grants, dik dik, duiker, steenbuck, klipspringer and warthog, but I think this will give you a great idea of what kind of safari one can have if they hunt the right areas. Mr. Piece could have also taken several fantastic Lesser Kudu, but he declined as he already has two of them.

Nice critters, Adam, thanks for the info. Any idea on the age of the lion? What did the impala measure, he's pretty.

Great job and beautiful animals.

Is that representative of all of your 21 day safari hunters or just your "last client"?

Has this client hunted with you before?

What can a one time client expect to see or take if they are planning such a hunt only once in their lifetimes?


Thanx.

Ann, do not know what the exact age is of the lion and no way of telling until the teeth are sent out, but the PH Brian told me that the lion would go 6-7 years. The impala was 28"

BrooksRange,
This safari is a good idea of what a normal 21-day safari will produce in our areas. You would normally add in a Lesser Kudu as well though, along with 1-2 more buffalo. Very good chance at bigger buffalo, but this client was only interested in one buff which they took early due to lion baits.

Our other 21-day hunters this year have also done very well. So far we are 4 for 4 on leopards and 3 for 4 lions. The first client of the year that I personally hunted turned down 4 male lions due to the fact that he already has 22 lions and was looking for something very special, thus we did not take a lion.

This client has not hunted with us before and this was his first safari with us. He has hunted Tanzania before though. He has already inquired about booking again though.

A one time hunter can expect to take the same type of bag that this client took on this safari.

Adam,

He looks like a very happy client!

Do the concessions in Masailand have a quota for elephant? What is the overall success rate for elephant in Masailand (in general)?

Thanks!

Adam,
If you don't mind reporting back on the lion age once you have results on the teeth i would be very interested. I would age that lion differently based on this photo.

Good hunting!

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Originally posted by 500grains:
Adam,

He looks like a very happy client!

Do the concessions in Masailand have a quota for elephant? What is the overall success rate for elephant in Masailand (in general)?

Thanks!

In general no elephants are issued by Game Dpt in Masaailand as a result of an incident several years ago about some Amboseli Park elephants shot by a client.

However some outfitters with the right connections can obtain a license - 1 recent incident (unconfirmed) was of a 90 lbs taken in Irkishibor last year....

500grains, As of now, there is no quota for elephants in our areas. We are in the process of trying to change that, so we will see what happens. If one was to hunt elephant though in Lolkisale it would not difficult to get an elephant of at least 60-70 pounds at a minimum.

bwanamich, I can assure you that our PH Brian knows what he is doing and the lion is well of age.

I will second that - I have hunted with Brian in TZ and he is a hell of a PH and a "great hunter". I would recommend him to anyone - he delivers! I have a lion hunt booked with Adam in 2007 and I requested Brian as my PH. This will be my second lion hunt with Brian.

Adam - I'll see you and hopefully Brian in Reno.

Adam,

How much would a similar hunt cost nowadays, when all trophy fees are included? I remember seeing pricing in the 30-50K range, but would like to have a recent example.

Is it possible to plan a shorter, flexible hunt, say 16 days, but still have access some of the same animals on a 21 day hunt?

Adam,
I don't doubt Brian's experience but IMHO he erred on the high side with this lions age. And I know you have to support his decision but the same way Brian would pass up a soft bossed buff, he should have passed on this one.

BrooksRange, you can either look at my website or give me a call if you want to learn about all of our details.

Bwanamich, IMHO you erred with your judgment. Maybe it is the picture, but that lion is of age. His whole body was grey, he was by himself, his teeth were almost totally worn down and have no reason to doubt Brian. My partner looked at the skull and also confirmed with me that it was an old male. I do not want to argue your "expert" opinion though so lets leave it alone. I simply did this post to show that some areas in Masailand are good for hunting no matter what time of year you hunt, not to get into a debate. I do know that we are one of the last companies you have to worry about as far as ethics go. We are very strict with our PH's and already fired one this year.

quote:

Originally posted by safari12:
500grains, As of now, there is no quota for elephants in our areas. We are in the process of trying to change that, so we will see what happens. If one was to hunt elephant though in Lolkisale it would not difficult to get an elephant of at least 60-70 pounds at a minimum.

bwanamich, I can assure you that our PH Brian knows what he is doing and the lion is well of age.

With regards to minimum 60-70 pound elephant in Lolkisale, you guys must smoke some type of roll your own sigara. Ditto for the lion's age! Still nice trophies in general with the exception of the lion bait buff.

And so it looks like another pissin' contest starts ...........lion bait buffalo my butt....with a 3-buff license who wouldn't shoot a 40" hard-boss buff on the first day of your first safari?

I understand Tanzania has some specific conditons on which lions may be shot and I don't recall what they were that but this looks like a damn nice lion with a nicely colored full-main that I'd be more than happy to shoot.

I've hunted with Brian and I can vouch for the fact that he is meticulous in his trophy evaluation.

I try to avoid all internet pissing contests, but I do have a question about the lion and lions in general. In the picture it appears this lion is still carrying some spots on his hind legs and maybe even some on his forelegs. I don't know if that's really the case or not, but it might be the reason for the questions about the lion's age. I know I thought the same thing when I saw the photo; but I wouldn't hazard a guess based on this one photo. My question is at what age does a lion loose his spots and what is the oldest he's likely to be and still have visable vestiges of spots?

This lion was also taken in Lolkisale and I guess that you would call this lion too young as well with his spots on his front legs?

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Here is another picture of the same lion from the first post from a different angle. You can not tell me that a lion that is that dark grey color and big bodied is a young lion. He may not have a very big mane, but he is not a young lion.

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Adam,

What month was the second lion taken - the one from Lolkisale?

One other thing I will add to this thread - photo's do not do these magnificent animals justice - period (I don't care how old you think it is)! When you start looking one over and see some of the scars that they have from past wounds, some of which are still unhealed (i.e., fresh), brokem teeth, or you feel how hard and springing their muscle's are. They are just amazing - even being at the top of the food chain it is a hard life!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by safari12:
This lion was also taken in Lolkisale and I guess that you would call this lion too young as well with his spots on his front legs?

Adam, I'm not critiquing the lion. My post asked... " My question is at what age does a lion loose his spots and what is the oldest he's likely to be and still have visable vestiges of spots?" I'm asking about lions in general.

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The lion looks good to me. As Adam mentioned, he is too gray to be young.

I would have no problem pulling the trigger on that lion.

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Originally posted by DB Bill:
And so it looks like another pissin' contest starts ...........lion bait buffalo my butt....with a 3-buff license who wouldn't shoot a 40" hard-boss buff on the first day of your first safari?

I understand Tanzania has some specific conditons on which lions may be shot and I don't recall what they were that but this looks like a damn nice lion with a nicely colored full-main that I'd be more than happy to shoot.

I've hunted with Brian and I can vouch for the fact that he is meticulous in his trophy evaluation.

I have to agree with you, Bill. Things are getting a bit out of hand on ol' AR these days with all the critical drivel that starts almost the minute a trophy is posted here.

I would be estatic with the bag Adam's client took on his hunt!

Bwanamich...aren't you in the "business" too?

I don't see a pissing contest here! It seems that everytime someone has a different opinion (As in Adams' and mine) he is labelled a "troublemaker". I was not criticising.

for those that are interested in the topic of lion hunting, etc here are a few pictures of various lions for info purposes. Not one of these lions is over 6 years of age. This is not my opinion but opinions of several PH's, professional photo safari guides and lion researchers.




















You can be sure that most of these would have been shot by the "majority" of outfitters and their PH's. How do i know? One just has to look at the brochure and website photo galleries

shooting any of the above lions is akin to shooting a soft bossed buffalo.

Good hunting!

Bwanamich,

You can bet I would certainly have problems with the PH that told me that numbers 1, 4 or 7 were not shooters!!!!

The system that Tanzania has in place to determine a 6 year lion is stuffed! Sort of like the US Tax code. It is wide open to anyones interpretation. Not many mature lions give you 15 minutes to discuss with your PH their relative merits based on the system.
Tanzania needs to come up with a better system.
Of course they could follow the SA lead and put a 6 year old in a cage for you, and say there is your mature lion!

Bwanamich,
We had a good thread on this subject earlier this year on how do you determine the minimim 6 yr.age of a male lion. It is not easy to field assess and be accurate plus or minus a year on male lion determination. The scientific community is still not definitive on field evaluation vs. actual confirmation with hard data. Some sites have done pride studies and have the genealogy and years of experience with their territorial prides to have a better knowledge on male lion age than others. The nomads whether young or very old still show up and field assessments must occurr. The 6 yr. rule is a guideline currently as you educated me earlier. I would have to side with the other hunters that this lone male would be a very good representative mature trophy lion. I would not hesitate to say he could be 6-7 +/- one year. A lot more work is needed to make this TZ guideline field assessable or even measurable after taking a trophy like has been done with North American whitetail deer and molar wear. Picture and cast examples are available for ageing Deer after the kill. There is still variation in physical appearancein deer that makes it +/- a year with experienced hunters.
We need to continue to discuss this important topid on AR, but not get into criticizing on age limits when it cannot be verified either way. More research needs to be done. Pictures are great to discuss, but unless there is a more definitive method we still will come up short on real age field assessment.

We currently have PH concerns on shooting Elephants in the Selous because of the 17 kg. or 1.7 m minimum requirements and penalties if not met. Seventy pounders no problem, but 40-45 pounders risky till on the ground and measurable. Elephant tusks are 1/3 hidden and if you throw in the root cavity as one more variable it is more challenging to field assess. This is at least measurable after taking your trophy.
Robert

quote:

Originally posted by Hugh W: The system that Tanzania has in place to determine a 6 year lion is stuffed! Sort of like the US Tax code. It is wide open to anyones interpretation. Not many mature lions give you 15 minutes to discuss with your PH their relative merits based on the system.
Tanzania needs to come up with a better system.
Of course they could follow the SA lead and put a 6 year old in a cage for you, and say there is your mature lion!

Hugh, Speaking in general and not in reference to any of the lions pictured above - I'm in favor of restrictions, as the taking of older lions in theory means that the quantity-quota goes away...the quota becomes based on how many older lions there are in a particular area which is by definition considered sustainable. Makes great sense on paper....BUT, there is NO WAY any PH can accurately 100% determine EXACTLY when a lion's 6th birthday is, unless they have been watching him from birth. Until then, sport hunters must rely on the good judgement of the PH. And really, what difference is it betweeen 5-years and 8-months and 6-years and 2-months for example. Given the only choice, I'd personally rather shoot a lion that is 5.5yrs old and without pride then one who is 6.5yrs old and with a pride...but of course knowing if a lion is or is not with cubs is not a perfect science either. Of course we would all kill an old, old lion if given the option.

In a paper entitled "Lion Conservation in Tanzania Leads to Serious Human – Lion Conflicts", the author (Rolf D. Baldus) says:

"We also doubt that the knowledge exists to age lions after the hunt on the basis of their teeth. This would consequently need training. We are even not sure whether exact age determination is possible at all at this stage, apart from ageing lions into broad age groups, like subadult, young, middle aged and old adults. Our experiences show that many professional sport hunters are relatively unsure of their abilities to age lions beyond these categories. Using nose colour to age lions is also difficult as many lions are shot off baits where the nose is often darkened by feeding or they are shot in bad light at sunset or sunrise. In any case and apart from lion hunting a total reform of the management of the hunting industry is required in Tanzania to overcome the problems that are now inherent. The important step will be to offer the hunting concessions to outfitters based on market value, i.e. outfitters must bid competitively against each other for concessions with a sufficiently long-term security of tenure. This single step will overcome much of the subleasing problem and greatly increase the revenue generated from hunting. The species that will benefit the most from this reform will be the lion."

Also interesting from the paper is this - Mich, do you know who this refers to?:

"In a particular hunting block with many lions the quota nevertheless might be overshot and the lions then booked on the unused quota of another block, which allows the export of the trophy. I know of a case of ten lions shot in a block instead of four in 2003. The professional hunter had a sublease on the block and knew that he was not hunting it the following year."

Article: http://www.wildlife-programme....e/download/nr_41.pdf

Edit/Add: Seems to me that IF there is a problem, it is not in the judgment being made by quality PH's working for outfitters who are committed to the long-term success of their area and business. And attention should be addressed to the bigger picture, and where the actual problems lie. JMO's...

Regards, Bill

I must first apologise as I/we have hijacked this thread and should continue this discussion on a separate thread. Perhaps a moderator can move this?

Robert and Bill,
I agree with you on most of what you have written. The problem is judging between a 5 and 6 year old. The differences between a 4 and a 7 year old are quite evident if you know what i mean? All but #7 in the pics above are in the 3-4 year old bracket. Once again not only my opinion but that of several (between 3 and 6)different independant individuals as stated in my post above.

Hugh of the pictures you state, only #7 is up for debate.

Bill i don't know who Baldus was referring to. However, he has been known to make some pretty bold comments in the past so take what he writes with a grain of salt.

Good hunting!