I received this as part of an email:

"Authentic African Adventures is owned and managed by Hanno & Bardina van Rensburg near Baltimore in the Limpopo Province in South Africa……………We have recently also acquired permission to hunt in 4 of the big National Parks in Zimbabwe, comprising of more than 1 million acres in concessions."

They have permission to hunt 4 of the NATIONAL PARKS? Anyone have any idea what's going on? I'd prefer the Zimbos or RSA operators in the know weigh in on this one.

Brett

This should be a good read !!!

Not knowing the facts, but it looks like another SA operator with BS !!

It's bullshit, email them and ask specifics , another fly by night operator trying to take advantage of Zimbabwe not knowing what he is selling

Not really news that you can hunt parks. I saw hunters in Wankie when I was hunting Matetsi in 2012. Maybe now it's just above board. Too bad the Zim PH ass. is a toothless wonder, since a lot of the members (I believe) would disavow members who hunted any Park for any reason.

Someone PMed me a link to their Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/media...9803521750037&type=1

Apparently they meant concession except they do have Mana Pools National Park listed. Perhaps they mean a concession near Mana Pools NP???

Brett

"Hanno has acquired permission to use hunting concessions the size of 1 million acres in Zimbabwe. These areas include Makuti Safari area, Save Conservancy, The Hurungwe Safari Area and the world renowned Mana Pools National park on the banks of the Zambezi River. Congratulations Hanno!"

Brett

Interestingly though their web page says nothing about Zim.

quote:

Originally posted by BrettAKSCI:
"Hanno has acquired permission to use hunting concessions the size of 1 million acres in Zimbabwe. These areas include Makuti Safari area, Save Conservancy, The Hurungwe Safari Area and the world renowned Mana Pools National park on the banks of the Zambezi River. Congratulations Hanno!"

Brett

I can see how inept editing could cause that sentence to read the way it does rather than to mention, "We also offer our hunting customers photo trips to world renown Mana Pools National Park on the banks of the Zambezi River ..."

JPK

I understand that greed and money make people do some very unflattering things, but I just find it absolutely despicable that some South Africans are using the corruption in and disarray of the parks situation in Zimbabwe to profit. I hope there is a special place in hell for these people. I also hope that when the tide turns in Zim that these people get their comeuppance. While you have a number of good people in Zim struggling to make an honest buck and hold things together you have these bastards trying to destroy national treasures and rape the country. One would hope that groups like PHASA would at least ostracize these clowns.

I too find it despicable. Except I reserve that title to the sleazy American hunters (met one at Ultimate in Vic Falls,) who hire the SA outfits who hire the absolutely despicable Zim professional hunters to cover the whole shopping trip to a Park.
It's my understanding based on conversations with 2 Zim PHs, that their PH association is well aware of all this, yet has chosen not to excommunicate or castrate the Zim PHs that make this a relatively smooth operation.

It's a corrupt world, what can I tell you.

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
I too find it despicable. Except I reserve that title to the sleazy American hunters (met one at Ultimate in Vic Falls,) who hire the SA outfits who hire the absolutely despicable Zim professional hunters to cover the whole shopping trip to a Park.
It's my understanding based on conversations with 2 Zim PHs, that their PH association is well aware of all this, yet has chosen not to excommunicate or castrate the Zim PHs that make this a relatively smooth operation.

It's a corrupt world, what can I tell you.

So being a member of the professional hunters association in the country means nothing ha?

Navaluk, your limited knowledge allows you to call the entire Zimbabwe professional hunters association " toothless wonders"!
Really??
Live here, operate here, raise a family here, then you have the right to call everyone toothless!!

+1

The information I passed along was either what I saw and heard from a fellow American hunter in Vic Falls after his park hunt, or directly from 2 very well respected Zim PHs. I actually severely toned down their opinion of the association, as it relates to park hunting. One was present with me when we witnessed hunters in Hwange. Choose to disbelieve if you wish. I believe what I saw and what I heard.

Saeed,

Perhaps I was not clear in my report. The PHs I spoke with are members and they are not the only members I am told that want the association to take action, but (I was told) the association would not take the steps.

If you know the association has acted then bravo! I stand ready and willing to be corrected.

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
Saeed,

Perhaps I was not clear in my report. The PHs I spoke with are members and they are not the only members I am told that want the association to take action, but (I was told) the association would not take the steps.

If you know the association has acted then bravo! I stand ready and willing to be corrected.

What I understood was that those hunting in the national park WERE members.

Not just the ones who were rightfully complaining.

Which brings up another question.

Does that mean the hunters association in any country is powerless to do anything about illegal hunts in their own country?

I stand correct but I think PHASA can only intervene if one of its members did something wrong in South Africa, however I may be wrong.

That would seem odd to me . . . for example, someone found guilty of poaching in several other countries could not be thrown out? Seems like they would have the ability to remove anyone that engages in any conduct, regardless of where it occurred, that is detrimental to the profession.

MJINES, AS I said I might be wrong but far as I know there is nothing PHASA can do if it did not happen in RSA, and even if they can? what is the worse that could happen A member can be expelled and that is about it unfortunately.

Phillip,

First of all I think we are aligned on this so I am not trying to be argumentative. Here is one possible suggestion. As a lawyer in the United States you must be a member of a state bar association in the state in which you practice. If you violate the ethical standards for lawyers (yes, there are such things), the state bar can (and routinely does) jerk your license (yes, you have certain due process rights, but in the end, if you are found to have violated the standards you lose your license). Moreover, depending on what you did they will then publish a notice saying that so and so has been disbarred because they did A, B and C. The notice does several things. It lets others know that the state bar takes acting ethically serious and it also is a way to publicly shame the guilty party.

http://www.texasbar.com/AM/Tem....cfm&ContentID=24755


Why wouldn't PHASA do something like that? Kick the person out and then post on their website that so and so was removed as a member for doing A, B and C which is conduct detrimental to the sport of hunting. I think we all know why PHASA does not do that, and why they would have a long list of excuses not to do that. They simply do not care. They want the membership dollars, want the enrollment to be as big a number as possible and when it comes to ensuring that the members act ethically they are prepared to largely turn a blind eye. Why not kick them out and let the public know that they were kicked out and why?

I would love to be proven wrong but I doubt that I am. Otherwise, why would they allow anyone associated with these National Park hunts that are beyond a doubt the product of graft and corruption to remain a member of their organization without renouncing that person as a member?

quote:

If you violate the ethical standards for lawyers

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

If you violate the ethical standards for lawyers

Sometimes people just ask for it. In this crowd it was sort of like painting a bullseye on your back.

But to the topic at hand. In most jurisdictions the actual licensing of guides/ph's/outfitters is authorized by the country/state/province, not the local association. Membership in most ph/guide associations is not mandatory or required as part of the licensing approval process.

It is quite common to see that the local association handle the training/testing of individuals so that they can qualify to receive their license, but in any event they do not have to belong to the association.

In the event a member of the association conducts themselves in a manner contrary to the associations code of conduct they could be kicked out of the association, but it has nothing to do with whether or not they lose their license. It is entirely possible for an operator to contravene an associations rules, yet not be subject to the loss of their license by the licensing body.

I have known some fine outfitters/operators who refuse to belong to the local association for one reason or another. Some clients do not necessarily believe that an operators membership in the local association is mandatory in order to do business with them.

While membership in the local association can certainly be a good indicator that an operator is reputable, we all know that internal politics can have a significant impact on whether licensed operators choose to belong to an association or not. I know operators who have belonged for a period of time and then chose not to belong during a time period when they did not want to be associated with the executive during a specific term or two. It had nothing to do with the quality of their operation, the way they ran it or the contravention of any game laws.

There are a few exceptions where the membership in local associations is mandatory and part of the licensing approval, but not many.

Good post Skyline!

SKYLINE, great post ,Phasa does very good these days an I am A proud member.

What does PHASA do? Curious.

From the PHASA Code of Conduct:

Each member of PHASA shall commit himself, upon acceptance of membership, to this Code of Conduct whereby he:

. . .

shall obey the laws of any country in which he operates at any time in professional hunting or related activities;
shall conduct himself in a manner which will reflect honesty, integrity and morality and shall not allow material gain to supersede such principles;
shall respect the natural resources of the country in which he hunts;

. . .

shall not act in any manner that brings the good name of PHASA and it’s members into disrepute.

I guess hunting in national parks does not violate any of those standards . . . or if it does, no one cares.

I was a member of PHASA for many years and although we've had our ups & downs, I've usually been a supporter and admirer of the Association and I do think they mostly do a pretty good job but all they are is a Professional Association that is meant to represent the opinions and rights of the PHs & Outfitters in RSA.

They do not have any official powers and the only thing they can do is reprimand or suspend a member or withdraw membership. PHs & Outfitters are not bound by law to be members so effectively, they have no real power any more than any of the hunting organisations in the USA do....... in fact, they have less because they can't even ban a member from exhibiting anywhere.

Another problem they is they represent the interests of both PHs & Outfitters and when those interests come into conflict then they pretty much always support the Outfitters......... and IMO, that's a mistake because it's the PHs association not the Outfitters association.... The secret is in the name.

PHASA can and does act against it's members who are guilty of misconduct in other countries.

Some time ago there was an incident in Namibia where a South African outfitter was involved in transgressing their laws. The person who laid the claims decided not to continue with the case if memory serves.

By law PHASA (and other local hunting organizations) has to inform the cops about any members who have been expelled and also the nature of the misconduct that led to the expulsion of any members.

Since Stuart Dorringtons time any and all cases against or between members have been dealt with timeously and efficiently.

I have found that PHASA gladly assists in genuine member requests as in acting as mediator between members and the efficient Nature Conservation departments. Issuing of permits for PH's to possess more than 4 firearms etc specially when dedicated hunter status had more rights than professional hunters.

Since Adri took the reigns there has been a remarkable turnaround in PHASA and they seem to want to bend backwards to assist the members.

quote:

Originally posted by Pieter Kriel:
PHASA can and does act against it's members who are guilty of misconduct in other countries.

Some time ago there was an incident in Namibia where a South African outfitter was involved in transgressing their laws. The person who laid the claims decided not to continue with the case if memory serves.

By law PHASA (and other local hunting organizations) has to inform the cops about any members who have been expelled and also the nature of the misconduct that led to the expulsion of any members.

Since Stuart Dorringtons time any and all cases against or between members have been dealt with timeously and efficiently.

I have found that PHASA gladly assists in genuine member requests as in acting as mediator between members and the efficient Nature Conservation departments. Issuing of permits for PH's to possess more than 4 firearms etc specially when dedicated hunter status had more rights than professional hunters.

Since Adri took the reigns there has been a remarkable turnaround in PHASA and they seem to want to bend backwards to assist the members.

I reckon Stuart was the best President they had in all the years I was a member.

Ian Goss comes a close second.

quote:

quote:
If you violate the ethical standards for lawyers

This is the stuff of legends, I love it.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
What does PHASA do? Curious.

From the PHASA Code of Conduct:

Each member of PHASA shall commit himself, upon acceptance of membership, to this Code of Conduct whereby he:

. . .

shall obey the laws of any country in which he operates at any time in professional hunting or related activities;
shall conduct himself in a manner which will reflect honesty, integrity and morality and shall not allow material gain to supersede such principles;
shall respect the natural resources of the country in which he hunts;

. . .

shall not act in any manner that brings the good name of PHASA and it’s members into disrepute.

I guess hunting in national parks does not violate any of those standards . . . or if it does, no one cares.

It's not LAW to be a member. The code of conduct and membership is for Hunting outfitters that volunteer to be a part of PHASA and to be held accountable by their peers.
So it's a good question to ask your outfitter. Are you a PHASA member ? And Why not ?

Hopefully in the near future it will be mandatory for anyone offering hunts to foreign hunters to be a PHASA member. This will change the ball game dramatically.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I was a member of PHASA for many years and although we've had our ups & downs, I've usually been a supporter and admirer of the Association and I do think they mostly do a pretty good job but all they are is a Professional Association that is meant to represent the opinions and rights of the PHs & Outfitters in RSA.

They do not have any official powers and the only thing they can do is reprimand or suspend a member or withdraw membership. PHs & Outfitters are not bound by law to be members so effectively, they have no real power any more than any of the hunting organisations in the USA do....... in fact, they have less because they can't even ban a member from exhibiting anywhere.

+1 Steve. Hans Vermaak, the past president, mentioned at the AGM that 98% of reported misconduct that they received where from NON MEMBERS.
The 3% that were members were amicably resolved.

As for exhibiting, DSC will only accept PHASA members as exhibitors.

SCI unfortunately won't follow suit. This will also help mountains, stopping interesting people from exhibiting.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
Hopefully in the near future it will be mandatory for anyone offering hunts to foreign hunters to be a PHASA member. This will change the ball game dramatically.

Whilst I understand a lot of people might think that's a good idea (and it is at first glance) I reckon it's a VERY dangerous road to go down.

Firstly because it then puts PHASA in an incredible position of power and someone, someday just might choose to abuse it. (Same reason as why the Americans have their Constitution)

Secondly, because there are always times that good, open and honest members can be in disagreement with the Association but they don't have the option to resign. (the canned lion issue being a good example)

Thirdly, it prevents other similar organisations that might better represent the interests of those mentioned above setting up.

And last but not least, I rather suspect such a requirement would be contrary to the RSA constitution and could very well be successfully challenged in court.

I'll even give you an example of my second point:

Some years ago, a newly elected President wrote a piece in the mag that he thought the continent should have a single PH association and that it should be PHASA with him at the helm.......... I wrote to the association pointing out the bloody fool had delusions of grandeur (diplomacy was never my strong point! ) and how impossible it would be and that the other PHAs might just possibly tell him to voetsak........ I further went on to say that if he ever tried, I and probably many other others would resign.

I happen to know that many others also wrote similar messages and we never heard any more about it....... but I noted that not a single one of those letters was even acknowledged, let alone printed in the mag to tell other members what some had thought of the idea.......

I could probably think of other examples but there's no need to labour the point.

IMO, if members voted for such a thing, they'd be shooting themselves in both feet BIG TIME!

Steve the government is making it a requirement for all professional bodies to be accredited or they will not be recognized.

PHASA has applied for this accreditation on behalf of the PHs an Outfitters, so that all PHs both members and non members, can be recognized officially as "professionals" in their field.
This would be the equivalent of a NQF 4 Diploma ( 4 years at University )

Future SA PHs will then need to do a 4 year diploma including apprenticeship.

Once they are an Accreditted official body representing South African Professional hunters and Outfitters, you would need to be a member to be accredited.this would be similar to the Estate agents of SA etc.

At the AGM it was pointed out that the very complicated procedure was almost complete.

As is, Most of the government interaction with the hunting community involved with tourist hunting, involves PHASA.

Currently I can't see one man getting into a power struggle as the committee is made up of a pres. Past pres. CEO (Adri Kristoff) a number of executive committee members. All voted in yearly for a 2 year period by members from the floor.
All major decisions are discussed on the floor at the AGM and voted in by the attending members? This includes the policy on CB lions, the new subs etc.
So not impossible but highly improbable I think, that they will go into a power struggle.

But lastly I think that one body representing the tourist hunting community, interacting with Government on policy, DSC an SCI on approved exhibitors etc will route out more problems than it will create.it will close all the loop holes.

Just like you can't become an Estate agent without belonging to their National body etc so you won't get an PH an Outfitters license if you don't belong to the nationally accredited PH an Outfiiters association.

Keep in mind that PHASA an CHASA and all it's affiliates do work with PHASA and have more members but they are more geared for local hunters and local hunting as well as policy around local hunting.

This is my understanding of the issues so don't shoot the messenger.

Dave,

I wouldn't disagree that it be compulsory for PHs and outfitters to be members or A professional organisation but would strongly disagree that PHASA be the ONLY option.

For example, the canned lion wilding period issue was hijacked by a group that had a conflict of interests and another is PHASA can jack their subscription up any time they like to any figure they like and members have no option but to pay whatever is demanded of them....... which is no better than the SCI extortion.

It might be good for PHASA as an organisation but it's a piss poor thing for the individual members because it puts the association's rights before the rights of those individual members.

Nope...... I reckon it's a wrong 'un and further reckon such a move is against the RSA constitution/Bill of Rights and could well be successfully challenged in court.

Maybe you're right.Steve

I was at the AGM when subs where discussed and also the lions, this was a long debate from the floor and both issues where eventually settled by a proposal from the floor and also a vote.

I don't think one man has a defining say. As I understand and have experienced the current PHASA.
All issues are discussed and voted by members, All voting members are current PHs and Outfitters.

In the interim the EXCO will handle issues. These are ALL current outfitters and PHs. I can't see them making decisions that will affect themselves?

As for the SA constitution, the Construction, Electrical, Tertiary education any thing that needs a certificate or diploma has A NATIONAL BODY ie one regulating it.The international hunting industry also needs a certificate as issued by the dept. of environmental affairs. Therefore the SA government has asked that a professional body be accredited. PHASA has applied for that position.


This was discussed at length at the AGM.unless they don't get approved, it's done an dusted.

Dave

I'm not suggesting these things will definitely happen just that they could happen in the future & to make PHASA membership compulsory is the same principle to how Obamination would like to amend the constitution of the US to remove individual's rights etc........ In effect, you're voluntarily creating a Big Brother entity......... and that can never be good for anyone except Big Brother.

As for the "The international hunting industry also needs a certificate as issued by the dept. of environmental affairs" - I can understand that & the first thing PHASA should do is exactly what they've failed utterly to do in all the years they've existed which is to change things so that the entire country has ONE set of game laws & ONE PH licence that covers the entire country so all PHs are licenced NATIONALLY instead of PROVINCIALLY.

I'm convinced this step is a BIG mistake for the industry & the only benefit is to PHASA as an association & Govt. It's foing to cause immense harm to individual members & the industry as a whole.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

As for the "The international hunting industry also needs a certificate as issued by the dept. of environmental affairs" - I can understand that & the first thing PHASA should do is exactly what they've failed utterly to do in all the years they've existed which is to change things so that the entire country has ONE set of game laws & ONE PH licence that covers the entire country so all PHs are licenced NATIONALLY instead

Steve that's exactly what is going to happen.

All P.Hs and outfitters will fall under one roof.
If PHASA become a National accreditation body, then everyone falls under one banner, one set of rules.one license, ONE COUNTRY.
This is to try and catch the province jumpers,and eliminate problems.

Dave

That at least is good news but I still reckon the idea of compulsory membership of any single organisation to work at one's living is restrictive in the extreme & definitely a bad idea for the individuals in the industry.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
. . . I still reckon the idea of compulsory membership of any single organisation to work at one's living is restrictive in the extreme & definitely a bad idea for the individuals in the industry.

Why is that? That is the way it works in the legal, medical, public accounting and other professions? It is actually the hallmark of any industry that is at a stage professionally that it is taking responsibility for policing and controlling those in the profession. Of course, the organization has to follow certain due process rights to restrict or remove someone's ability to perform in the profession but otherwise I am struggling to understand why that would be bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
. . . I still reckon the idea of compulsory membership of any single organisation to work at one's living is restrictive in the extreme & definitely a bad idea for the individuals in the industry.

Why is that? That is the way it works in the legal, medical, public accounting and other professions? It is actually the hallmark of any industry that is at a stage professionally that it is taking responsibility for policing and controlling those in the profession. Of course, the organization has to follow certain due process rights to restrict or remove someone's ability to perform in the profession but otherwise I am struggling to understand why that would be bad idea.

I totally agree with Mike. Mike refers to different businesses that have this as a part of the business and conducted the correct way this leads to confidence and acceptance from authorities and public.

Morten