ok like many i'm on a budget. I have no dollar value on this budget, but i need to know what to save for.

should i buy a .416 rigby by CZ or ruger

or

should i save for longer and buy a .500 or larger double rifle.

I am 31 this year and am planning my first buff hunt in the valley in 2006. I figure i'll need at least 6 months to practice with the new piece to achieve the level of comfort i need to feel safe.

I also hear that RSA is going to limit pieces per hunter soon, so i reckon there will be a glut of nice 2nd hand stuff on the market.

This rifle will be bought and live in RSA, as we are not allowed any full bore rifles where i live.(singapore)

any advice and opinions will be very very helpful. I know guns as i have been around them alot, but DG rifles i don't know that much about.

main criteria are:

1) factory ammo must be available and plentiful

2) gun must be production gun or custom piece sold at production prices

3) my preference is .400 and above as i want to let lots of light in.

thanks in advance for all the advice i know i'm gonna get.

cheers, tm.

CZ .416 Rigby or Ruger would be a good choice.

It meets all you needs.

I like the stock of the Ruger the best.



Cheers,



Andr�

Didn�t we have this same discussion a while back ie CZ vs Ruger? The pick is yours, take the one that fit�s you (budget wise etc) �cause there�ll always be a lot of "experts" giving you "advice".

Both guns have their pros and cons.

I�m not sure if factory ammo in .416 Rigby is readily availible in the RSA so if you don�t handload then maybe something in .458 would be a better choice? Check with your PH for advice on ammo.

A double...if you can afford a good one and if you really want one then save your cash and buy one.

If you are going to buy the rifle in RSA then you might contact of the RSA gunmakers like SABI Rifles. The stuff I've seen from them is Beautiful. Here is a link.
Sabi Rifles

As far as caliber, it is hard to beat the penetration of the sweet .400s, .416s, 404 Jefferys. .418 is a nice long bullet that does the job, and you can find ammo for them.

If you are hunting non dangerous game, then whatever you'd use for elk/deer hunting in the states will do just find for plains game. Save the money for a trophy fee.

If you have good friend in the US or UK, a rifle can be imported with the proper documents. The guns are much cheaper that way. Our group of hunters has done that twice for a PH that want a specific gun. It takes the regulatory folks in RSA about 6 months to do the back ground verifications, but you have your gun.

On the model - shoot what you like. I like Winchester Model 70's. I have owned Rugers and Sako's - still prefer the Model 70.

.

If you want a double then wait and get one..

Out of the box, I would much prefer a Ruger to a CZ, but if you don't mind spending another grand on the CZ, then that is a good route to go..

Also, a good idea is to be patient and shop the gunlist, the internet, and gun shows and find a good used custom rifle in a suitable caliber, I have had fantastic luck with this method, as have many on this board..You can get a lot of gun for the money and usually at 50 cents ont he dollar.

trapmonkey,



If you're in Singapore, just walk into Chye Whatt Seng at the People's Park Complex or into Hock Ann Sporting and have a good look - they usually have a good selection of rifles including big bore rifles both in double and bolt action configuration.



Hock Ann used to be South East Asian distributors for Browning of Europe and they still have some big bore rifles listed on the Browning Europe website including in calibers like 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs though for the life of me I have no idea what they build them on.



Chye Whatt Seng used to represent a number of German gunmakers including Heym, Merkel and some of the custom makers. You will find prices quite reasonable, too.



I am presuming that you have a Q22 license, of course, for your country hangs people for as much as owning antique muzzle-loaders without permits.

Alf

totally aware of that, but i have really good friends there who always hunt with me so the rifle will live there. It is really the best thing as getting a safari rifle a home here costs me about 2500usd in housing fees a year.

cheers, guy

M

Yeah the fellas at Chye watt seng and hock ann are all my friends, but i really don't want to buy here. stock is very old and of dubious quality if i import it to RSA i'll still pay duties, so no real difference.

I'd rather give my contacts in RSA business, than buy old stock which i cannot test fire or return if there are problems. cheers, tm

as for licenses, yes i have all require licenses for my pistols and shotguns, but now that we don't have a civilian full bore rifle range, all rifles bigger than .22 rimfire are out. Yes they hang people for murder, armed robbery, arms offences,drug trafficking etc here. Frankly it is a harsh, but reasonably fair system. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

A 500 NE Double by Merkel will cost you circa $10k, the price of ten Rugers. Any real English double in the same caliber will set you back $25-50,000. The words "budget" and "double" don't usually appear in the same sentence.

The only cheap doubles out there are the modern O/U doubles in 375 and 9.3 x74R. Starting at $1,500.

Your assumption that the price of rifles in SA is about to tank is based on the new law that limits the number of weapons any one person can own. But you underestimate boer ingenuity. Also, if you are a "certified hunter" you are exempt from that limitation to a large degree. So I wouldn't bank on it.

trapmonkey,

I am surprised that Singapore doesn't have a full bore range anymore? I have not been to your country in a very long time but if I remember the army had a range where civilian shooters were allowed in the old days and there was a range across the border in Johore Bahru where shooters could get permission and take their guns over. I presume this tells you how long ago it was...

Wouldn't Chartered Industries also have a range there? They have started manufacturing civilian arms for sale in Australia and the US. It's crazy that they don't seem to care about the local market...

Anyway, do keep in touch. I shall be coming to your country sometime shortly and maybe we could have a beer together. I shall be staying with a friend who is at Ang Mo Kio and I shall have one more oppportunity to pull his leg about your gun laws since we have hunted together a long time ago and from what you're saying, I presume he may never be able to go back to it thanks to the situation there.

As far as murderers and drug smugglers are concerned, hanging them is a good thing - to be honest, I left Singapore fed up at watching silly Abba concerts every night on Singapore television in the early 1980s and watching bobbitised movies, censored news and getting bored entirely... Yes, if things are as difficult for gun owners there, you would have no choice except to go to a country with better gun laws and buy a rifle there.

.

dear M

sure please drop me an email or PM if you are in town. we'll meet up for a beer or something. yes hunting in singapore is curtailed, but i'm heading out just now to do my public service in the city, i shoot crows for the national environmenty agency, the only hunting we get locally.

as for full bore rifle we've been trying to get a range for the last 5-6 years, with no success.

cheers tm

and as for stuff from chartered, i'd rather have my M16, a us design than a SAR 80 or SAR 21. At least i know my M16's sights won't fall off.

oh dear another govt that is going down the wrong route. When will those morons learn that cutting down legal guns does nothing, absolutely nothing to the use of mostly illegal guns in crime.

logically speaking if they were so concerned about gun crime and gun numbers, they should address the issue of storage and illegal arms filtering in from a porous border. Look at UK an island that has banned handguns, yet handgun crime continues to escalate.

I was trained as a politician, with two politics degrees, but am truly ashamed at some of the people who claim to be leaders of societies today.

I hope the boer ingenuity comes to the fore as it always does.

cheers,tm

TrapM



You can only dream of Boer determination and inguinuity, the numbers are stacked up against da white man boer, the black government dont worry about inguinuity, they just about do whatever suits them and one has to swallow the bitter pill and enjoy it. It is in some ways a bit like Singapore, if you buck the system you get the sword, the government dont let you have an opinion anymore, or more correctly the opinion dont count ... ...



Regards, Peter

Guy,



If you are planning to shoot your buffalo in the Phalaborwa area you are more than welcome to use my 458 Lott. It is a good gun and will cost you nothing.



My advice is to use the money saved to practice shooting offhand with any open sight .22 and to come at least one week earlier to do some buffalo tracking and to use the 458 to shoot for some impalas, warthogs, wildebeests and kudus.



I will be a great fun and a confidence boosting exercise.



Regards



Andrea

Guy,

The rifle manufacturers and custom gunsmiths will not likely agree with Andrea. But I do. Getting very used to quickly shooting with "reasonable" accuracy with iron sights, or low magnification scope if you are to use one on a DG hunt, is IMHO much more important than having exactly the ultimate DG animal stopper.

I think there is a lot to be said for Andreas' advice to get lots of simulated real situation practice with a .22lr, or any other cheap to shoot rifle, and use the DG rifle supplied by the HO or PH. Rather spend your money on getting a few days "hands on" DG country experience and shooting plains game with the borrowed or rented DG rifle you intend to use for your DG hunt, than spend a lot of money on your own DG rifle which you are going to use at most one or twice only. Yes I agree that it would be so much nicer to use your own pet rifle for your once in a lifetime DG hunt. But if you are on a tight budget you may have to compromise a bit. I like Andrea's suggestion.

Enjoy your preparation and planning.

Verewaaier.

Alf,
RSA is going same way as Australia. In 1996 the government prohibited semi-auto rifles and shotguns (including rimfires) and pump shotguns. They have just completed a handgun buyback while some handguns are ok anything over .38 is prohibited and everything is registered . I say prohibited instead of banned as a small minority of gun owners can still keep the above but must show "good reason" but now they are trying a different tack instead of paying millions in compensation the government is enforcing strict storage laws which mean the gun owner must have a safe, bars on windows , security system etc which can add up to more than the his guns are worth and the gun owner just exits shooting altogether but if you comply you can still own many rifles but too many in same calibre and the police like to know why but they accept say you have 4 .30/06's what you say is one is a target rifle, 'scoped hunting rifle, peep sight hunting rifle , or even spare parts rifle! but I think every 5 years we will lose a bit more.
RLI

tm,

I'll keep in touch and let you know when my plans are confirmed.

Do keep in touch,

Good hunting!

Dear V and andrea

Thank you so much for the kind advice and offer of the gun. I'll probably end up buying because i am running a small plains game package for asian and australian clientele. I can keep my piece there and use it to take the occaisional animal for the pot.

as for practice, i don't think i'd have a problem with that as a shooting entrepreneur, I teach at least 4 classes a week and shoot close to 300 shells of various calibres. mainly 12gauge shotgun.

I regularly prcatice with a scoped .22 bolt gun and sometimes with open sights, as a shotgunner open sights are a lot easier to use for me. cheers, tm

Have you ever shot a .416 or bigger? Guy came into the store who was going to Africa. Absolutely had to have his own .458 Win Mag. Paid his money plus some for 20 rounds. Picks it up on a Friday evening. Came back Saturday PM with 18 loaded rounds and the rifle asking us to sell it.
What are you shooting now? If you have never fired a round that big, don't buy a rifle for that calibre. You can rent the rifle when you get there. Nobody will let you hunt with it unless you can shoot it well enough. Think .375 H&H. Rifle won't cost you 3 month's rent/mortgage payments and you'll be more likely to be able to shoot it well enough to hunt.
If you can't shoot the rifle long before you get there, stay home.

Trapmonkey,

You are probably correct that there is going to be some sort of 'glut' of used rifles soon. The market for those rifles will also be very limited, as licence applications are set to become very onerous. So, yes - one can expect to be able to pick up some real 'cheapies' soon. (Gasps the dying Impala to the waiting Vulture)

The thing that might save our rifles, could be 'Boer ingenuity', but let's face it - us Boers haven't stood together in war or peace since the second Anglo-Boer war. Hopefully it will be something a lot more predictable than that - like government ineptness and pie-in-the-sky ideology. Or just plain paper - truckloads of the stuff. The requirements of the new Act are going to cause some serious logjams in the system. Even now, licence applications are taking longer than a year to process - what will the authorities do when 2.4 million firearms owners queue up to re-licence 4-point-something-million firearms, on top of the current backlog? Eeiish, Baba - hy gaan skyt. (That one's for Alf!)

We are expected to 'prove' our competence with firearms to an 'accredited training institution' (of which there aren't any as of today). We may only do this on an 'accredited shooting range' (of which there aren't any, as of today). Should our licence application fail, we are entitled to appeal to a non-existent (as of today) appeal board.

Fortunately, public resistance to the Act is growing. For what it's worth, every tv and radio survey over the last several years has shown a growing resisatance to the Act. The last such survey showed a 97% pro-gun vs 3% anti-gun sentiment. I expect Gov't to turn a blind eye, but it doesn't make the road ahead any easier for them.

1 July is set as the date when the paw-paw hits the fan. I'm hoping that, by 1 July 2006, we'll be well on the way to a more sensible Act. Hopefully this time with less emotional input from people like Gunfree SA, and more constructive input from gunowners. At worst, there will be a delay of several years before we see the expected glut of cheap gems trickle onto the market.

Dear Sunray

Hmm cool nick, Major or col? In my limited vocab sunray was always radio speak for the co. Battalion sized unit.

Anyways yes i have shot .375,.416, and .500NE etc, big bored rifles aren't really a difficulty, its more a case of practice than anything else. I must admit that i really don't like the sharp crack of a .300 magnum in a light rifle, the booming push of a .500NE was much better for me. maybe i should buy a .450?

cheers, guy.