Here also: http://www.shakariconnection.c...10-lion-brochure.pdf

This: http://www.abebooks.com/servle...07&pfxid=a_557685289 might also be of interest.

After about 3 years of age, the fleshy part of the nose
begins to freckle or become liver spotted. As the
lion ages, more pigmentation appears until the nose
is entirely black by about 8 years. A general rule of
thumb is that by 6 years noses are >50% black.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
After about 3 years of age, the fleshy part of the nose
begins to freckle or become liver spotted. As the
lion ages, more pigmentation appears until the nose
is entirely black by about 8 years. A general rule of
thumb is that by 6 years noses are >50% black.

Man, you just had to say it didn't ya!!

As this one male shows at different ages, between
1–3 years, the mane around the neck is longer and
darker than on the shoulders, but by 3–4 years the areas
are similar in length and color. The chest continues to
darken with age. After 4 years, the chest and shoulders
are often darker than the forehead and contrast
significantly with the hair around the face. By 5–6 years
the mane begins to fill in the area around the shoulder.
Beyond 7 years, manes slowly lose condition.
What, no reference to genetics, region, type of specific terrain and brush cover?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
What, no reference to genetics, region, type of specific terrain and brush cover?

Brush cover is a "myth", usually a PH excuse for a poorly maned lion. However, your other examples are spot on. Problem is, most use this type of thing as a rule, rather than what's intended, A GUIDE!!

Maybe there is a further guide for aging by dentition, let the lion bite you then take a tooth.
Honestly, I do not think a morphology guide is going to be more than 60% accurate. For the cost spent on a lion hunt there will be lots of pressure on most folks to fill the tag on any large mature lion.

A couple of years back I was debating whether to allow my client Howard (Aaron Neilson's client) to shoot a Lion as he lacked the so called hallmarks of an older Lion that this guide dictates.

Neither could I find any evidence that the Lion was immature but was a bit clean cut for my liking. Having spent two days studying this beast I decided to take him although I felt he was borderline. After tooth and other scientific analysis our resident Lion researcher Paula White concluded he was the oldest Lion to come out of the concession that year?

Any good PH will be able to age a three to four year Lion and this youngster should be left alone. But five onwards is a guessing game and if he looks mature to both the PH and the hunter then he is fairgame in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

Any good PH will be able to age a three to four year Lion and this youngster should be left alone. But five onwards is a guessing game and if he looks mature to both the PH and the hunter then he is fairgame in my book.

I think you are right...... in principle. But judging from the amount of lion trophy pictures publicly available on websites and marketing literature, there are far too many 2-3 y.o. lions taken on a regular basis which would make me believe that :
a) either there aren't enough "experienced" phs around, or
b) Even the "experienced" phs are succumbing to client pressure and the almighty $$$

What the hell does Aaron Neilson know about lions ? Oh, I forgot, he's killed 10 of the damn things. Actual experience sure takes the fun out of a thread doesn't it !

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
What the hell does Aaron Neilson know about lions ? Oh, I forgot, he's killed 10 of the damn things. Actual experience sure takes the fun out of a thread doesn't it !

No Dave you're mistaken! Aaron has ONLY shot 11 or 12 lions!!! Might want to get your facts straight before you start talking trash!!!

Brett

I'm sure my PH will be happy to let me tell him how old the lion is based on this guide, and let me decide all by my lonesome which cat to shoot!

Ain't this why we pay them the big bucks?

I expect Adam's guys will tell me not to shoot a lot of them that I would be ready to shoot in a second.

quote:

b) Even the "experienced" phs are succumbing to client pressure and the almighty $$$

Read my bi-line...it is the "Golden Rule" in action!

He who has the gold...(a lot of the time anyway) makes the rules!!!

My Dad taught that early on on life.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
What the hell does Aaron Neilson know about lions ? Oh, I forgot, he's killed 10 of the damn things. Actual experience sure takes the fun out of a thread doesn't it !

What the he'll does Bwanamich know...he only deals with them every day of his life!

(not to discount Aaron as his knowledge is top notch as well)

Guys - Case in point, see pic below. I shot this lion two years ago in the Kilombero-Tanzania, an area rarely known for big maned lion. When we first saw this lion my PH said, "nope to young". He looked only at his mane. I knew the PH well and had hunted with him in Botswana, etc. I immediately said, "B.S."! That's a huge lion, with a mohawk for a mane, we were hunting an area with generally poor genetics for big manes. He looked at him for awhile longer and then agreed with me. We did for the moment pass on him as it was the 2nd day of the hunt, but shot the lion on the 14th day after seeing him two or three more times.

This lion was 10' 5' from nose to tail as I recall, and had a 26 1/4" skull. Extremely worn teeth, as worn as I have ever seen, was ALWAYS all by himself, even with other lions around, and was NO DOUBT an old lion.

Mane development, like nose color (more BS by the way), blah, blah, blah, is only an indicator, and the region/general genetics of the area should always be part of the equation. To use a "guide" like this as a "tell all" for lions from one side of the continent to the other is simply innacurate. Yes, Bwanamich is correct. Some PH's are still shooting young lions, but I don't think its because of lack of knowledge, at least I hope not. I think its out of lack of concern/care & money, whatever it takes to make the client happy. Unfortunately!!! That crap must stop.

Know the area you hunt and what's to be expected/hoped for from there, or don't go. I talk to guys all the time wanting the MGM lion, but booking lion hunts in places that rarely, if ever, produce that kind of lion. I guess the person selling them the hunt is a better salesman than I. If you want a chance at an amazing lion, hunt Zambia's Kafue or Western/Northern Tanzania, period! Plus the Save & Luangwa at times/certain places. Other than that, don't get too caught up with the mane, just shoot a mature lion.

Aaron,
Do you have any pictures of the teeth showing this wear? I ask because I am collecting pics of males with poor mane and obvious indication of old age.

What % of males would you say end up looking like your Kilombero lion at age 6+?

All, pls, I am not a lion expert. I try to keep informed on the subject. The experts are those that study them for most of their lives. I'm still in my 40's

quote:

Other than that, don't get too caught up with the mane, just shoot a mature lion.

this statement is the answer and end to all of these lion (and other species for that matter) aging discussions. IMHO of course.

quote:

blah, blah, blah,

You forgot the yadi, yadi, yada!!!

quote:

Mane development, like nose color (more BS by the way), blah, blah, blah, is only an indicator, and the region/general genetics of the area should always be part of the equation. To use a "guide" like this as a "tell all" for lions from one side of the continent to the other is simply innacurate. Yes, Bwanamich is correct. Some PH's are still shooting young lions, but I don't think its because of lack of knowledge, at least I hope not. I think its out of lack of concern/care & money, whatever it takes to make the client happy. Unfortunately!!! That crap must stop.

Aaron,
That was a good post.

The little guide is useful but by no means a "Bible".

In almost 30 years of collecting data on large animals...I have learned there are rarely any absolutes.

As a diagnostician of difficult cases...I have learned to use every shred of credible data that can to solve the "puzzle". And...I have learned that in medicine/biology...most of the time you have been given a "puzzle" with missing pieces...or...even worse...pieces that don't fit. People who are "good" at what I do...learn this fact early...and...learn to see the big picture with out all pieces and even harder learn which pieces to throw out in a given scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Aaron,
Do you have any pictures of the teeth showing this wear? I ask because I am collecting pics of males with poor mane and obvious indication of old age.

What % of males would you say end up looking like your Kilombero lion at age 6+?

All, pls, I am not a lion expert. I try to keep informed on the subject. The experts are those that study them for most of their lives. I'm still in my 40's

Bwana - I'll look, but I don't know if I have pics of the teeth. I hope I took some, but do not remember?

In the case of this Kilombero lion, I don't think age had a darn thing to do with his mane, just genetics. I personally think lions can/do lose mane condition, but not always. I still believe most manes stay well intact throughout their lives, JMO.

Fact is Bwana, I do believe you are an expert on lions! After some VERY lengthy email discussions with with VP of Panthera and his helper who is doing the new Zambian Lion Project, of which, ledvm was copied on. I am TOTALLY convinced most of these scientists are narrowly knowledgable at BEST. And have really only one major motive, FUNDING! No bigger example of that than Packer himself and the inside scoop on the Zambian Lion Project, along with the blatantly FALSE info they printed and feed to the public, in hopes of MONEY. Info that was easily verifible, but their false propoganda sounded much better to help accomplish their personal goals! A Phd doesn't make someone an expert, experience does! Experience applied to the FACTS. The lengths to which the world listens to these people versus their extreme lack of knowledge and self fulfilling motives, is UNBELIEVABLE!! In fact, scary! They don't have a clue, but the world believes and thinks they do.

Its time guys like ledvm and his buddy from Texas A&M university are regarded as the "experts". Those that the world conservation community listens to, and heeds advice from, period!

In fairness guys, it doesn't claim to be a bible.

The title on the top right says "Pocket Guide to Ageing Lions" and I'd say that's exactly what it is.

Note also it comes from John Jackson & Conservation Force who do an immense amount of good for us hunters and get precious little thanks, support or reward for most of what they do.

Every single one of us ought to thank our lucky stars JJ is around.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
In fairness guys, it doesn't claim to be a bible.

The title on the top right says "Pocket Guide to Ageing Lions" and I'd say that's exactly what it is.

Note also it comes from John Jackson & Conservation Force who do an immense amount of good for us hunters and get precious little thanks, support or reward for most of what they do.

Every single one of us ought to thank our lucky stars JJ is around.

Steve - I don't think any of that was in dispute??? As you know, I have a very good relationship with JJ, and firmly believe in what he does.