[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited 09-13-2001).]

Very wise words indeed....I was very pleased to see a number of senior Muslim figures from within the UK condem this gross act.

Pete

I think it is sad to see innocent Arabs punished for the actions of the radicals. However, if they want to avoid innocent bloodshed, they will take arms against those who are guilty. When you get stung by a single bee, you don�t kill the beekeeper. However, when the whole hive attacks, action must be taken and the beekeeper will experience your pain. I don�t see masses in the streets of Riyadh, San�a, Musqat, Abu-Dhabi, Kabul, Islamabad, and Cairo demanding that those involved be brought to justice. All I see are Muslims dancing with delight in the streets. This makes it hard for our leaders to distinguish friend from foe. We may sacrifice the cart for the one bad apple.

I challenge all Islamic nations that if they are truly peace loving, they will become involved. If they truly deplore terrorism against the West, they provide full assistance. If they are genuine in their sorrow, they will join our coalition and end terrorism. They know who is involved at the highest levels in the terrorist community, now is the time to show their solidarity, support, and debt owed to the West. It is time to balance the scales, words are not enough....

However, this not politics as usual. This is good v.s. evil, and EVERYONE will have to stand and be counted. Those who are not with us, are against us.

Any terrorist, anywhere, anytime. Anyone who excuses them, tolerates them, harbors them or knows about them. Anyone who supports them, buys their drugs, sells them goods, weapons, food or drink. Know that you are the eternal enemy of the United States of America and all the civilized world that stands for freedom.

Before you hated us. Now you will hate us and fear us. No mercy.

Dutch.

As to the good people in Afghanistan, I fear that our bombs will not share your views, as in all wars, weapons seldom discriminate between good and evil, young and old and that is another price we must pay, to protect our own....

Perhaps we should pray for our leaders and Gods guidance in the inevitable events before us. We as a country have been left little choice but to take major action.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Thank you for these words. I never doubted that any of you were any different from us here at all.

We share the same principles and beliefs, regardless of what religion we might belong to.

I have been looking at quite a number of forums, and I am very happy to see that the over whelming opinion is not very different from ours, despite a few posts from misguided people.

I am afraid there are people like these everywhere, not just in the US.

Hardly any of us here managed to do any work in the past two days, we are all still in shock. Our minds simply cannot comprehind the purpose behind this atrocity.

I know the crime happened in the United States, but we all feel victimised by it.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

To say that these terrorists are representative of all Middle Easterners is like saying Timothy McVeigh is representative of all Americans.

Unfortunately there have been more incidents:

A 75 year old man in Huntington, New York tried to run down a Pakastani woman in a Mall parking lot, screaming you killed my country.

In Chicago an Arab/American Community Center was fire bombed with a Molotov cocktail.

In a Chicago suburb the police intercepted a crowd of 300 peiople who were marching on a Mosque.

Arab-American men in New Rochelle and Yonkers, New York have been harassed.

Threatening phone calls were made in Washington, Los Angeles and San Jose.

In Afghanistan the Talaban is only recognized as the Government by 3 countries in the world. The opposition in the country is the "Northern Coalition". They are fighting the Talaban

There were 3 to 6 Terrorists on each airplane. Some have been identified. One, Mohamed Atta, was an Egyptian, and his cousin, who was with him, is from The United Arab Emirates *( I heard the name but couldn't write it down. If it is re-announced I will post it. ) Other pilots were Saudi Arabians.

Fifty terrorist were apparently involved. Forty have been identified and 10 ARE THOUGHT TO BE STILL AT LARGE IN THE USA.

Countries that sponsor International terrorism.

Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan, North Korea.

Suspects:

Osama Bin Laden, leader of Al Quaida group based in Afghanistan and protected by Talaban; controls about 3000 Arab militants.

Palestinian groups:

Hammas
Democtatic Front for the Liberation of Palestine ( DFLP ).
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. ( PFLP ).

International Islamic Jihad movement.

Some of these also have an argument with the Arab Kings, Princes and Emirs and they do not like the USA's support of those govermnents. Thus they ( Arabs ) are against Arabs as well as others.

Kendall Dace

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail this time around.

[This message has been edited by T. Kanaley (edited 09-14-2001).]

Kendall Dace, you forgot Libya. He has been around too long already.

[This message has been edited by DaveC (edited 09-13-2001).]

I didn't forget Libya but I did inadvertently omit them. However, they were posted elsewhere. Thanks for your astute observation.

Elsewhere:

Germany can now be added to the list of countries who lost citizens in the WTC conflagration.

Japan had 31 companies in the World Trade Center.

This morning two suspects were taken into custody at New York's LaGuardia airport attempting to board an airplane. Almost as soon as the airport opened, police had an altercation with two men who made threatening comments. The airport was evacuated.

This evening three suspects were taken into custody at John F. Kennedy airport. They were on the F.B.I. list. Kennedy, Newark and LaGuardia *( New Yorks 3 airports ) were all again closed almost as soon as they were opened.

All day long the T.V. has been allowing persons searching for missing family to announce their descriptions and ask for assistance and information. It is very emotional and gut wrenching. Just a horrible, horrible tragedy of unimaginable proportions.

Kendall Dace

Lets never repeat such mistakes, that is just what the present enemy would have us do....

But lets not let pity change our resolve, lets put the past weaknesses behind us and go forward with our resolve to destroy thoes who have violated our shores and thoes who have supported these criminals, wheather they be individuals or countrys..They killed 20 ot 30,000 of our countrymen, and the rath of the US needs to come down on all of them like the hammer of Thor...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I tried to tell her that that was like a 1940s African confusing a Scotsman for a Nazi, but she was beyond coherent thought.

I am afraid many Americans don't know who the enemy is. (Not that it will be easy finding the perpetrators.)

Don

More anti-Arab activity:

In Laramie, Wyoming an Arab looking woman was chased from a Wal-Mart *( Big multi-product chain store ) by a crowd who shouted - " Go back to your own country, to which she replied - "I am in my own country, I was born here" ).

In Washington State another Mosque vandalized and shot up.

In Fairfield, Michigan an Arab service station was burned.

In Queens, New York, Steinway Street, Arab stores are closed, no customer will enter.

In New York City the Egyptian-American Association offices were burned.

Terrorist Apprehensions:

All New York airports remain closed. Last night at two NY airports 8 persons were arrested.

Another "team" of terrorist airplane crashers was apparently among them - this groups efforts thwarted, on Tuesday, by an event. Some had false I.D., knives, open tickets and pilots licenses. The flight they wanted to take on Tuesday ( the day of infamy ) which they were attempting to board to California had been cancelled. They argued with the flight crew and refused to leave. Security was called and they fled, later to return on Thursday. Their names were on an FBI watch list.

Two persons have been arrested by the FBI, early today, on a Carnival cruise ship out of Florida - with a history of terrorism.

Other terrorist are thought to be still at large in the USA. Tomorrow night the faces will appear on the T.V. program - "Americas Most Wanted".

FOR SAEED:

There are now reported two ( 2 ) citizens of the UAE who were identified and involved. So far as I can determine they were cousins of an Egyptian Mohamed Atta. Their names apparently are:

Marwin Al Shari ( phonetic spelling )
Walmid Shari

Mohamed Atta was one of the pilots, and a key man, who crashed into the WTC. They were on flight #11, the first plane to crash into the WTC. Marwin was said to be his cousin and Walmid was either Marwins cousin or brother. They apparently were on board also.

A total of 18 terrorists were active on the planes that crashes, 5 each on two planes and 4 each on the other two. The body of one terrorist and the body on an airline hostess, with hands tied behind her back, and feet tied, have been recovered from the WTC crash site.

WTC Victims:

The count of Mexicans missing is now 15.

Thirty one NATIONS had businesses in the WTC. Coincidentally Japan had 31 Japanese businesses there and was one of the 31 Nations.

Internet Frauds:

Several fraudulent schemes appeared on the I-net.

First the story about Nostradamus predicting the tragedy in the 16th Century, and which was posted here, was actually false. It was rather a concoction or assemblage of quotes from several different sources. It is entirely incorrect and it has been debunked.

Some I-net sites are soliciting donations for the rescue effort and/or the Red Cross. These are scams and no money or donations are to be made. No legitimate organization is making request on the I-Net.

Some I-Net companies were selling memorabilia ( metal, glass scraps )allegedly from the WTC site. These are false and E-Bay has pulled them from the I-Net.

Authorities are suprised that the scam and scum crooks initiated these efforts so soon.

Allies:

There are 18 countries committed to the mutual effort with ENORMOUS military resources.

President Bush's "War Powers" authority":

The President, according to the Constitution, does not need Congressional approval to go to war. Both he and Secretary of State Colin Powell have already announced this as war. I believe that at this time we ARE ALREADY AT WAR. *( There are more details available for anyone who wishes to obtain them ).

The most incredible story to date:

A Port Authority Official claims that he was on the 81st floor when that tower collapsed. It was reported that he - "rode the building down " survived and sustained only a broken leg "! If this story holds up, this will be the most phenomenal story since an American parachutist fell 18,000 feet during the second world war, without a parachute, landed in pine trees and snow, survived and was personally congratulated by Adolph Hitler.

Kendall Dace

quote:

---

Originally posted by T. Kanaley:
[B]During the second world war, with the U.S. and the rest of the free world uniting to defeat the Axis. We still managed to trample on the rights of innocent U.S born Japanese Americans by rounding them up and jailing them in detention camps, for no other reason than because of their Japanese heritage. I have heard similar calls in recent days on talk radio for the rounding up of Arab-Americans.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail this time around.
B]

---

Actually, I believe the real reason for the roundup was so that certain politicians and their friends could steal Japanese farmers' land (worth quite a bit in California).

Beware the demagogue. Beware ANY abridgement of rights mentioned in the Constitution. Today the Muslim or Arab who owns the grocery store. Tomorrow the gunowner.

Beware the man who says, "I'm from the government and I'm here to protect you."

www.cnn.com

The suspected hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 11, which hit the north tower of the World Trade Center, were Walid Al Shehri, Wail Alsheri aka Waleed Alsheri, Mohammad Atta, Aabdul Alomari and Satam Sugami.

Aboard United Airlines Flight 175, which hit the south tower of the World Trade Center, the suspected hijackers were Marawn Alshehhi, Fayez Ahmed, Mohald Alshehri, Hamza Al Ghamdi and Ahmed Al Ghamdi.

Those believed to be the hijackers aboard American Airlines Flight 77, which hit the Pentagon, were Khalid Almihdhar, Majed Moqued, Nawaf Al Hazmi and Salem Al Hazmi.

The suspected hijackers aboard United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in rural Pennsylvania, were Ahmed Al Haznawi, Ahmed Alnami, Ziad Jarrah and Saeed Alghamdi.

Spellings are as they appear on federal documents and may vary from other spellings used.
______________________________________

Mohamed Atta is now said to have carried a UAE passoprt. But may actually have been of anothert nationality. Some names and identities may have been stolen.

Nine of the 10 arrested last night, at NY airports, have been released. However, now several people have been arrested in Miami airport. A man and a woman entered rest rooms, changed into flight attendant uniforms. But ran when approached, They were caught and arrested. Other terrorist are thought to be at large.

Kendall Dace

Mohamed Atta is emerging as quite an interesting player in the game. But first some technical information.

WTC Subsurface:

The bedrock underlying the twin towers of the WTC is about 70' to 90' deep. That being measured from ground surface elevation which is roughly 10' to 20' above sealevel. The rock is "CM" designated geologically the Manhattan Schist formation, a metamorphic rock 500 million years old ( or more ). The alluvium overlying the rock is glacial, fluvial, marine sands and gravels. The towers were sitting on solid rock.

There were 5 levels below street level. Further down, in the bedrock, the PATH ( Port Authority transit tunnels ( subway ) existed. PATH is not the New York City subway but rather a separate underground transit system that "loops" uptown, passes under the WTC then through twin tunnels under the Hudson River and over to Hoboken and Jersey City, New Jersey, across the river. The tunnels are presently flooded thereby shutting down a system that transported thousands of commuters daily.

How Were The Towers Brought Down:

The towers were constructed in a unique fashion with 240 column lines and 60 foot floor spans. That means the steel vertical members formed a boxlike structure around the outside walls ( like palisades ). The structure was Boeing 747 resistant.

The airplanes wings were tilted at 30 degrees or more at point of impace thereby taking out more floors above and below cockpit level.

The airplanes that struck the structures were loaded with about 10,500 and 14,000 gallons of fuel respectively since they were bound for California and fully loaded. Upon impact, the fuel ignited and set on fire everything inside. Additionally it spilled down elevator shafts and created fire and explosions on the ground floors.

Roughly an hour after being struck, the towers collapsed from the top down. They peeled open like a banana. The heat was from 1,000 to 2,000 degrees and it heated the joists and loosened the end connections. When the floors above the point of impact began to fall, the weight and force collapsed an underlying floor and like a domino effect continued down, floor by floor.

The steel vertical columns broke in segments and were propelled outward several blocks in all directions like flying javelins. Some speared into the ground and still stand vertically, implaled into sidewalks and streets. Others caused damage to buildings.

Mohamed Atta:

Atta liven in Hamburg, Germany where he studied for two ( 2 ) years and obtained the equivalent of an engineering degree. He then moved to Southern Florida where he lived for a year or more. He took pilots training obtaining a commercial pilots license flying small twin engine aircraft. He then took training courses at a separate school where he obtained experience in a link trainer ( flight simulator ) and concentrated on turning airplanes. He wasn't interested in take off and landings.

On the fateful day he drive to Portland, Maine, then took a flight from there to Logan ( Boston ) airport and then a connecting flight to California. About 20 minutes into the flight the plane was over New York State almost above the Hudson River. Boston air traffic controllers instructed it to climb from 29,000 feet to 31,000 feet due to traffic. Instead it made a sharp left turn South. The American pilot flew it down to within about 7 minutes of New York City. Then Atta took over.

It seems evident that the attack could have been planned 4 years ago and entailed an enormous amount of planning, training and education.

Bin Ladden or Others:

Bin Ladden is actually an organizer or central manager for other terrorist organizations. Undoubtedly there were other terrorists work in consort and being sponsored by the Iraquis, Iranians, Libyans, Sudanese, North Koreans ( and Algerians ).

Probably there have been plans in the works for some time for further strikes in the USA using nuclear missiles, explosives, chemical and biological weapons. The war will not be against Osama Bin Ladden alone and it will not be over upon his demise. Nor is it against Afghanistan alone, and it will not be over when Afghanistan Taliban is defeated.
It will continue to other countries such as Iraq and Southern Lebanon.

Kendall Dace

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Hoffman:
Dear, People:
There are many today, who will condemn all Arab peoples. This would be a gross mistake, while in a search of justice. Just as, Jim Jones and David Karesh was not representive of christianity, neither are the muslim radicals representive of all Arab Peoples. Pray for wisdom and justice.
George

[This message has been edited by George Hoffman (edited 09-13-2001).]

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As an aside: Leonard Pitts Jr. speaks for me http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/worldtrade/digdocs/008039.htm

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Brian

Terrorism is not born of a nationality, race or religion but an affliction of insane minds. This insanity takes part truths and distorts them to their own end.

Pray for reason in dealing with your fellow man and justice in dealing with these criminals.

When peoples' actions against their fellow man is influenced by anger and revenge the terrorists have won. Any time you change how you live your lives the terrorists have won.

The government will take the action against those who perpetrated this or assisted them. As citizens of this country we must show the resolve that no action by a terrorist will change the country we love.

Steve

Glad to see you here on our forums my friend.

"...I just pray we do the job right this time! "

I cannot agree with you more.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

On July 28, 1945 a military aircraft ( B-29 ) crashed into the Empire State Building while flying in fog. Eighteen people died. The building did not collapse.

The Empire State Building is constructed differently and the vertical steel columns are concrete encased.

If the airplanes that crashed into the WTC had crashed into the Empire State Building, it is estimated that they would have decapitated it.

WTC:

In case some haven't heard, as of last night 22,000 tons of debris have been hauled away. There is estimated 1.25 million tons. At that rate it will take 60 days to haul it all away.

Surivors and Victims:

Why did it happen the way it did?

Approximately 50,000 people work in the WTC. An estimated 10,000 to 20,000 were in the building when the planes crashed. They evacuated during the approximately one hour before the buildings collapsed.

In the meantime firemen and police rushed in. The collapses were completely unexpected. When the buildings collapsed they caught about 300 firemen, 70 or 80 police, high officials of the Port Authority, police and fire department. Over 4,000 others are unaccounted for.

Why are no victims being found:

They were pulverized and incinerated. The white dust clouds were actually the "plasterboard" gypsum board that is used to cover walls. This combined with smoke surely created an atmosphere that was unbreathable. The fires are still smoldering. The debris pile is 75 feet high. Water was poured onto the debris and it is still hot. As it is extinguished, when uncovered, it re-ignires and burns. It would be a miracle if anyone was still alive.

Father Maychael Judge, Catholic priest and chaplain of the fire department, who lived in a firehouse at 31st street, rushed to the scene. He was ministering last rights to a dead fireman. HE REMOVED HIS FIRE HELMET TO PRAY and was struck in the HEAD and killed by a piece of falling debris.

Escapees:

Mayor Rudy Giuliani very narrowly escaped. He was standing near the towers ( Note City Hall is only a few blocks away, he walked over ). Just 10 minutes before the collapse he and associates began walking away. He was at the edge of the debris field and sought refuge in a building. The dust and smoke choked him and his accompanying people.

Chelsea Clinton, daughter of ex-President Clinton was 12 blocks away when the collapse occurred.

Barbara Olsen:

Barbara Olsen, 45, died in the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. She was an attorney and wife of Ted Olsen, Solocitor General of the USA. Ted Olsen, some may recall, appeared frequently on T.V. in Florida where the disputed ballots were being counted during the Bush-Gore Presidential election.

Kendall Dace

My current partner is a Palestinian/American and I fear for his safety and that of his family. I've offered the use of my home as a refuge should he not feel safe in his. Islam is not anyone's enemy; ignorance is enemy to all.