/

For many it's a simple question of economics. Some want to hunt dangerous game, but cannot spend $10K and up on a rifle that will be used once every couple of years.

I know that if I ever needed a DGR, the realistic choices would be three: CZ, Ruger, and Winchester.

Alf,

I would agree with everything you said. Further I would add:

1.)The biggest reason the doubles are preferred is the written word.

2.) Bullet failures with doubles are also less likely since the ballistics of the double are much more bullet friendly.

3.) The ballistics provided by a double rifle cartridge are actually very appropriate. The added energy obtained with a magazine cartridge is OVERKILL, and much more likely to get one either killed or big beast wounded, because of a bullet failure.

4.) One does not need a monometal bullet in a double! The monometal bullet is required to withstand the ludicrous impact energies of SUPER MAGNUM magazine cartridges. A FMJ bullet is all one requires for superb terminal ballistic performance at double rifle energies.

5.) Double rifles were not used much in Africa. The English did not hunt Africa nearly as much as they did India! The double rifle is an Indian hunting tool! Used for asianic elephant, rhino, water buffalo, bantang, and tiger. Commerical magazine and military rifles were used primarily in Africa. Primarily the Mauser, Mannlicher, 303 Brit and 577-450 Martini (British equivalent to the 45-70).

6.) No one can shoot a second shot from a HEAVY caliber magazine rifle as quickly as they can from the equivalent caliber double. (585 Nyati vs. 577NE for example)

7.) One does not need MOA accuracy in any heavy caliber rifle for DG! The kill zones are all at least 4" ( 10 cm) in diameter and ranges are almost never over 100 yards!

Again, I feel the primary reason that the double is preferred is the WRITTEN WORD. Much romantic BS has been spewed out over the years, it is that simple.

[ 11-19-2002, 19:23: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

You should know Todd E, considering all your EXPERIENCE.

I suspect that the reason for the high regard for doubles is that they were originally being compared not to bolts, but to singles. The double was introduced to Africa very late in the heyday of market hunting, and it seemed a tremendous improvement for dangerous game compared to turning to a fleeing gunbearer for the second rifle (read J. A. Hunter for some of these experiences).

Had the heavy bolt been available during the brief period that doubles made their reputation, I think that the double would have taken a back seat. While there is something to be said for the speed of the second shot with the double, what it lacks in accuracy and in a third and fourth shot (not to mention velocity) make the bolt a superior arm.

Insofar as "minute of pie plate" accuracy being sufficient, well, yes, IF the INITIAL shot is limited to 50 yards or less. Putting your first shot into a buff at, say, 25 yards makes that very fast follow-up shot useful. However, with a .416 Remington, or equivalent, the modern African hunter can shoot his buff from 125 yards if he chooses and hit it in the right place -- a situation which makes the less speedy second shot more acceptable.

Doubles are both interesting (despite Col. Whelan's motto) and obsolete. If a hunter chooses to use one, like a hunter with a bow or a muzzle loader or any other obsolete weapon, more power to him. But being interesting, and at one time the best available, doesn't make them superior to a good bolt.

Alf

It is not possible to discharge 2 shots from a bolt rifle backwards over the shoulder whilst running away.

Alf,

I don't use double rifles, but I have used double shotguns (SXS). I have to admit I sold mine in preference to over-under guns.

If you compare the typical double rifle and its capabilities to Harals Wolf's Jungle Rifle, I know which of the two I will be taking hunting.

For those who didn't see the picture Saeed posted, click on this thread and scroll down.

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005224

jim dodd

I prefer the heavy bolt gun over the double but primarily because I grew up with bolt guns and doubles have an alien feel to me that I've not been able to overcome. The boltactions often allow for more powerful loadings per dollar of investment and enhanced ability to place ones' shots.

However, IMHO, the ability to slip the extra slug into a dangerous animal in a given window of time, combined with the availability of the instantaneous second shot, devoid of all mechanical involvement, at the last possible moment during a charge, eclipses the advantages of other rifles and is at the very crux of why doubles are still with us.

[ 11-19-2002, 21:00: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Ditto Alf. In fact ditto everybody above except I am ignoring the POSeur, so I don't know what he said.

I am basically bolt action trash. But there is a niche for a side-by-side double of heavy caliber and two triggers. Mark Sullivan would long ago have been buffalo toe jam, if not for the double. This is the only thing I hold against double rifles.

But the "double rifle ship of fools" takes some extreme voyages. Too heavy, too light, too much or not enough gun sometimes, and too much money most times. There is a happy port of call for most to tie up the boat before they get seasick.

One good double to learn the ropes on is enough for me, and nice to have along for the trip.

I am most happy with a slicked up bolt action,
especially something in the 375 H&H to 416 Rigby ball park. With scope and backup peep or express sights.

And there is just so much more interesting stuff you can do with a bolt, from zero to 1000 yards.

Just get some good sneakers and shoot well and the rapid second shot will rarely be needed. That is the only thing the double is best at (besides maudlin nostalgia or "sex appeal"), the old one-two. On rare occasions it is a life and death matter, however.

The bolt action rules in every other way, of course.

I think if one goes back and carefully reads most of the posts that they will see that we who actually USE the double rifle on dangerous game make no claims of superiority of the double over the bolt gun except at ranges under say 10 yards in a charge mode, where it is the hands down winner..

As to accuracy, mine will shoot 1" at 75 yards with iron sights and that is as good as my bolt guns. I never shoot beyond 125 yards, rather 125 yards is the furtherest I have shot a Buffalo with my double, most were shot at 15 to 40 yards...Mostly I just like my double rifle and I like to shoot Buffalo with it. All else is moot.

I also shoot a 416, 404, 375, 9.3x62 for DG. Some of these are scoped and some are not, but they all have iron sights that are sighted in...As one can see I believe there is a place for everything and everthing has its place.. I would hate not to have hunted DG with a double rifle....Any further discussion on my part is futile I suspect.....

Ditto to what Nickudu said! However, in the real world of African hunting, those charges happen very infrequently.
Our most gracious host Saeed has likely hunted and killed more buffalo than ANYONE on this forum. I don't remember him ever saying he thought a double rifle would have served him better than his "little" 375.
The double rifle is for those who want and can afford to use it. A properly done custom bolt gun is my choice for any hunting I have left to do, be it stateside or Africa. If it gets me stomped, gored or bit then so be it! That would be the result of a first shot screw up on my part and certainly not the fault of the weapon.

[ 11-19-2002, 21:25: Message edited by: John S ]

It is absolutely true the bolt rifle is more prevelent in Africa, as a DGR than any double rifle at any time in history. It is also true that a bolt or singleshot is far more usefull from 100 yds to 1000 yds. It is fact that a bolt rifle, even the fine examples done by really good custom DGR builders like ECOLS, are, as a rule, less expensive than a quality double rifle!

It is true, as well, that we seem to accept lower velocities in doubles than in a bolt rifle designed for dangerous game.

I hold all the truths as self evident, However, It is my opinion, the extra velocity developed in most bolt rifles is counter productive. And the words "DANGEROUS GAME" only apply when you are within 50, to 75 yds of the animal you are about to shoot! Beyond 100 yds, an animal, any animal, is simply not dangerous, so anything needed past that distance is wasted where dangerous game rifles are concearned. We ARE talking about dangerous game rifles, aren't we?

Because a rifle will print groups of less than an inch at 100 yds off the bench, be it bolt, single, or double, is moot when standing on your hind legs shooting a Buffalo, or lion, that is fast closeing, or diveing for the weeds. I submit there are many here who can't hit a pie plate at 30 yds with any rifle, if it is moveing up, and down, and side to side while closeing on him, or being pulled away. So the target accuracy is not worth spit in this sittuation! Instinct shooting is, and nothing shoots as well as a well fit double rifle for that type of shooting.

I believe if the price were the same as a decent bolt rifle, and the ammo was as available, there would be at least one double in every rack of everyone posting here! It is also my opinion, that most, not all, for sure, but most of the posters who are so against double rifles, are people who have never even held one in their hands, much less hunted Buffalo with one!

Dagga, and Pecos, I don't know where 500AHR got his information, and I have no idea if he has experience in hunting DG, but regardless of where the info came from, he is right in every respect. The information does not change when delivered by a messenger you dislike. If that were the case nothing I write would ever be commented on! Let's quite this BLASTING,give credit where credit is due, so we can get on with the debate!

In final analyisis, I own, and use many more bolt, and single shot rifles for my general hunting, and own far more of these two types as I do doubles. That fact, changes nothing when I'm standing in the bush with a large animal that has the potentual, as well as the desire, in some cases, to kill me. In this case if I have a choice, my hands will be wrapped around a good double rifle! Others may do as they please!

Advantages of a double:

1. Quick 2nd shot.

2. No feeding problems.

3. They look cool.

Advantages of a bolt:

a. They are cheap.

b. They hold more shots.

c. They can handle more powerful cartridges.

I'm with John on this one.

My position on this issue is very simple: I prefer to hunt with refined custom bolt action rifles chambered for cartridges that are appropriate to the task at hand. I have no desire to own a double, nor will I hunt with one. One way or another, I'll just have to get the job done with a bolt gun or not at all, no matter what that job might be.

And I don't stay up at night worrying about it, either..........

AD

Hunting is supposed to be for fun. Therefore you might as well use what you like as much as you can afford.

An important consideration is how your choice of a rifle will impact your PH's decision as to how to conduct the hunt. With DG in mind, I guarantee you, the PH will cringe a bit when the hunter shows up with an iron sighted dbl rifle and will alter the hunt accordingly, even if you have hunted with him previously and demonstrated skill with a scope sighted bolt. I had this very discussion, bolt vs. dbl, while hunting DG in Zimbabwe with Hilton Nichols and Roger Whittal and they both said they were much more careful with the hunter shooting a dbl rifle. As an example, after taking leopard and lion, on my buff, I was allowed by PH the following: after slecting the bull, we got to within about 100 yds upwind and PH says crawl through high grass towards buff and every five yards or so look back at PH who stays put and watches buff grazing, when buff winds me or senses something ain't right, PH signals me to stand and shoot and keep shooting. I got to within 20 yards of buff before I got the go sign and stood and put four rounds of 416 Rigby TB solids in him and it was absolutely the highpoint of my hunting life. Had I carried a dbl rifle, I would have never gotten this type of chance.

Once again ALF you have stated the obvious!

I can't think of any "good" reason to own a double rifle, when a modern bolt action with shoot further and with greater accuracy. Any bolt rifle off the shelf will shoot circles around the finest handmade English/Continental/US double rifle. They are just hold overs from an era of making a rifle for a specific job. The broad utility of the modern bolt action has pushed the poor double rifle into certain obscurity!

My .375 Safari Express is a true long range killer. I'd never attempt to use my 450/400 past 100-125 yards. I think we all need the "minute of orange" accuracy at 20-50 yards! After all isn't it the object to shoot DG from over 150 yards?

Now that slow moving .408 has got it all over the .458 when it comes to penetration and you don't have to beat yourself to death to get the .408 to perform. But look at the velocity of the .458, WOW!

And pay no attention to the 500/416 when you have the .416 Rem & Rigby. Yep, the 500/416 can't come close to the velocity and pressure of those!

If you need to drive those monolithic solids or eek every bit of velocity you can from a bullet/powder combination, you most certainly don't need a double rifle! I can't imagine why you'd buy one anyway? Way below your standards!

JoeR,
I'm as surprised as you that my PH didn't throw up his hands in horror when he saw my 450/400. Of course, I'd love to get to within 20 yards of my buff with my double! That would be great fun, even though I would have been poorly armed with my double!

Any of you who feel that you have at one time or other lowered your standards and on a whim purchased one of those pathetic double rifle, but now see the light, please just send them to me. I'm sure I can buy it from you for pennies on the dollar.
I would hate for you to own something you couldn't take pride in shooting!

[ 11-20-2002, 04:03: Message edited by: Rusty ]

Alf,

Nickudu and Ray have the best advice. If you actually use the rifle to hunt dangerous game then you will be charged at some point, assuming you are not shooting buff, or whatever, at or greater 100 yards.

All this talk about bolt guns is based upon the assumption that the PH and/or the game scout is going to bail your butt out in a charge. That isn't going to happen every time.

The PH my son hunted elephant with this summer, after 8 solid years of hunting, said he had never shot his 416 at an elephant since he got his license!!! (He also screwed up and told my kid the wrong place to frontal brain shoot the elephant ....Oh yeah, you can depend on your PH).

So, if one really hunts dangerous game, as opposed to just talking about it, a double, though not necessary, it is good life insurance. If I had killed a few hundred elephant,I would probably feel confident using a beat-to-crap 7x57 Mauser bolt rifle. But I think rookies need all the help they can get.

Nothing like lack of experience for recommending a DG rifle.

Will

Geez, you guys convinced me.

I going to sell my '54 Corvette and get me a new KIA. They are much faster, safer, more fuel efficient, better brakes and much more comfortable. Plus they have a CD and I won't have to listen to that old AM radio anymore.

No point in having and driving an old obsolete vehicle when I can have a brand new car that is cheaper too.

/

Hunt with whatever you've practiced enough with to become totally proficient with. Confidence with your firearm is more important than most of the minor advantages or disadvantages that will always come up with this topic. There will always be absolutely awesome riflemen in both catagories and they will be practiced and confident with their firearms.

470 Mbogo

Will, then how do you account for the fact that most PHs, including those who guide for dangerous game on a regular basis, rely on bolt action rifles far more often than doubles. Some of these guys have never used a double in their entire career.

I think that there's some notion floating about that Africa is just chuck full of fine doubles in the hands of all the top PHs, when in fact the double rifle users are in the minority and always have been. Guys like Harry Selby and Harry Manners come to mind as prominent PHs who are/were bolt action users out of preference.

Want documented proof?

I just looked up Craig Boddington's survey of PHs in his book, "Safari Rifles". Here are the number one choices of the PHs surveyed for their own personal use in the various dangerous game rifle catagories (page 389)

Lion: .375 H&H with sixty-six nominations. The .458 Winchester came in a distant second with fifteen nominations. The most common double rifle caliber listed was the .470 NE with a scant five nominations.

Leopard: .375 H&H with fifty nominations, followed with the .300 magnums in second with twenty-two. No double rifle calibers listed.

Thick-skinned game (here's our real huckleberry):
.458 Winchester with 48 nominations, .375 H&H in second with 33 votes. The .416 Rigby came in fourth with eighteeen votes, and then comes the .470 NE with fifteen votes.

In every dangerous game catagory, at least according to Boddington's twelve year-old survey, bolt action cartridges (therefore rifles) were the hands-down choice. Even in the "thick-skinned" catagory, the most popular bolt action cartridge beat the most popular double rifle cartridge by more than a three-to-one margin.

The average PH who responded had sixteen years of field experience. These are pros talking, not would-be pros, and this survey sort of blows the "gotta have a double" rhetoric all to heck.

AD

Allen:

There is no way to win this argument. I'm just throwing in my two cents worth, which may be over-valued!

The PH I hunted with this year was disappointed that I had not brought my double. "I would really like to have a double someday," paraphrasing his comment. I think many PH's would but are generally prevented due to the money involved.

Hey, it's an individual decision, disregarding the expense. Better off with the action type which one is most confident. My hero, Tony Sanchez, uses a bolt. Can't argue with that.

Will

I think the .416 Rigby would do quite a bit better should Mr. Bodingtons survey be repeated today. The proliferation of affordable rifles in .416 and .458 ( with a convertion to Lott in mind) has created quite a surge in recent years, especially within the ranks of younger PH's. Also, these guys are not making all that much money and few can afford to spend the money for a decent double. Almost all of the PH's I have met in recent years were using the Rigby, in various form, with some selecting the Lott. These trends come and go, I think. Where some of these guys were saying they valued the penetration of the .416 because much of their actual shooting was on going away shots at wounded game, some have since had scary incidents with ele and are now at least contemplating moving up to the Lott or even heavier numbers. I had all I could do to escape Zimbabwe with my .505 last August. Few of the fellows spoke of acquiring a double, in any form and I expect cost had much to do with it. The only doubles I've seen over there were owned by clients or the owner/operators of the safari company. None of the PH's had one. That's been my experience up to now. I'm sure others will have a different take on it.

[ 11-20-2002, 07:11: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Allan,
I know quit a few PH that use a double, mostly in Tanzania for some reason and yes bolt actions are more common and the REAL reasoning is the average PH cannot afford double rifles..Ask any PH that hunts dangerous game and they will tell you they would dearly love to own and use a double rifle. I have asked that question, by the way, to most all of the PH's I know...Almost to the man they said if business ever got good enough that they would buy a double...

A few users of doubles, since we are tossing names around like popcorn are: Taylor, and yes Bell, for oldies, then today Barry Van Heerden, AJ Van Heerden, Ron Van Heerden, Luke SAmaras, Pano Calavarias, Adam Clemments, Hannes Swanapol,Mark Sullivan, Mark Selby, Robin Hurt,Ernst Scholz,Hugo Seia and the list goes on..Do they use them all the time? some do and some don't...I don't use mine all the time either because I like all rifles, but I am not so arrogrant as to believe that if everyone does not do as I do then they are totally one hundred percent wrong and have reached jerk status as you seem to express in many of your posts lately....

There is a place for a double rifle and a place for a bolt gun, now if you want to use a $10,000 plastic stocked or Laminated stocked gun then thats your choice, but it's not everyones, and I figure I'd rather put my $10,000 on a double and I don't need someone telling me I'm wrong on that and I don't care how many stuffed mules you have in your trophy room.

Well I am sorry if I have offended you but

My observation of 4 PH's I encountered on a spot check in Botswana, 2001:

Ronnie McFarlane: 416 Rigby, Oberndorf Mauser by John Rigby. This, handed down from father Ian, was being used to backup the elephant hunting rich guy client who was carrying a Holland and Holland Royal 500 NE 3" of recent, brand spanking new, manufacture.

Kevin Chadwick: 470 NE double of make I did not ascertain. He was backingup the wife of the rich guy. She carried a 375 H&H and they were in the usual contest to see whether he or she spouse would bag the biggest elephant and buffalo and etc.

Adam Young: 416 Rigby, CZ Safari Magnum, for this young chap who was guiding me for buffalo in the Okavango. I carried a Ruger 416 Rigby. One shot was all it took.

Basie Riekert: 375 H&H on an ex-military Mauser 98, built in RSA from the action up.
Basie guided me for plains game in the Tuli Block. He was very fond of elephant hunting and was fretting over getting his 475 NE No.2 3-1/2" brought in from RSA. Botswana paperwork moves very slowly. I carried a 375 H&H built to flyweight from a Pre-64 M70 action.

Two of four carried a bolt action 416 Rigby.
One a 470 NE double.
One a 375 H&H Mauser, and longed for his double.

FWIW

Ray,
The rifles you mentioned, as made by Miller, are not DGRs, they are long range 300mag hunting rifles. Echols' Legend guns, chambered in big bore calibers don't cost anywhere near 10 grand!
Obviously you haven't asked all the PHs in Africa, or TZ for that matter, about their desire to own a double because you missed several that I know and have hunted with. And yes, these guys can afford a good double!
We can all refer to this PH or another, one survey or another and in the end we aren't going to convince anyone that our choice is better than theirs. There are many very experienced PHs and hunters who swear by the bolt rifle, just as the double rifle has it's small legion of true believers. That old song about them "really" wanting a double rifle but don't because of the price isn't as true today as it was years ago. Good double rifles as made by Heym, Searcy and Wm. Douglas don't cost a fortune like pre war English guns! Many PHs have several well heeled clients, etc etc. so I'm certain if they "really" want one they can manage to attain it.
If your choice is to put 10 grand into a beat up old relic, I hope it makes you happy. One's own experience and preference usually determine what they carry afield. You like iron sights, I don't. I like big variable scopes, you don't, etc etc. I'm not wrong and you're not right. This old debate will never be settled!

[ 11-20-2002, 18:16: Message edited by: John S ]

John S
I think you under rate the economy factor in choosing a bolt action. I've priced the doubles you mentioned, as well as ammo costs and decided to pass. Not that I didn't want one or won't have one someday. (my son is a senior in college, oh boy!)

mikelravy-
Yes, the economy factor is relevant in this debate but reloading for the double brings down the cost of shooting a good amount, but it will never be as cheap as a 375 or 458!

/

Gentlemen:
I have followed this thread for a few days,and
find that I am ambvilent. I have owned and used both. I had to sell my doubles for "poor boy" reasons. However, I found that I used the bolt action far more than the double. The double rifle
is very specilized piece of equipment and is far more useful to a PH than a client. The ideal setup
for a PH is to have both double and bolt action.
The double should stay cased and behind he seat of his hunting vehicle, until things really go bad
and you have to go into the really thick stuff for something that might stomp, gore, or eat you.
this is where the double is pure gold. George
Angeliedes uses this very system. He used his short barreled .460 Weatherby for every day use,
then when necessary he brings out his 500 3".
I use only a bolt today because I cannot afford
both. But I would admit to you, there has abeen
times that I would have loved to have my .470 in
hand
George

you could always get a ruger 1 in any caliber you want for a tenth of the price

searcy 577 11,000

ssk ruger 1 sst 13 1/2 14 lbs gun muzzel break if wanted 2400$

i owen 1 of these ssk guns it shoots of the bench groups at 50 yards 1 1/2 inch and under off hand it opens slightly to 2 inches.

You guys know this will never be settled here, or anyplace else, by us, or PHs, or anyone else! The fact is, there is really no answer, because both are viable, and depending on which you use proficiently, will be the answer for you! I personally like both, and usually take both to Africa. The bolt rifle is most of the time a scoped 375 H&H!

Eventhough all who have posted here, have stated irrefutible evidence, in their mind, for their POV on the subject being the right one, the nature of that says both are right. The answers from those here follows the average as stated by some here. However, the evidence presented by Allen, has a problem with some of that evidence. One problem with the Boddington survey, is when it was done, and the length of average experience of those surveyed! This survey was done in , or about 1978, which makes the longest experience of those involved, only as early as 1960! Anyone who knows anything about the double rifle, or in fact, any DGR of that period, knows that by 1978 ammo,and componants for a double rifle were simply not available.With the exception of, as ALF states, OLD ammo that had been stored in God only knows where, for fifty years, and was, as a rule, not too reliable. This combined with the cost, was what caused these PHs to be forced to use only bolt rifles, and in that time most bought NEW Mod 70 Pushfeed 458 Win MAGS,which sold for under $200, or used the older Mauser 375 H&H rifle that could be bought, and used cheaper. One other thing that is suspect is, simply because the cartridges listed are more often seen in bolt rifles,does not mean they were not used in doubles by some of the respondants. In this period of time, many doubles were being made in 458 Win Mag, and 375 H&H rimless magnum, as well as the 375 H&H mag flanged,and 416 Rigby, so the numbers only indicate the cartridge prefered, not the rifle. The point of the survey was to find the most used cartridge, not the most used rifle!

The 458 mod 70s were bought because they were told it would match the old 450NE 3.25" double rifle round, something they knew worked. The 375 H&H, and 458 Win Mag ammo was available over just about any counter, but not so, for the double. By the time the double had become usable again,by availability of ammo, these PHs were intrenched in the old PF bolt 458, and 375 H&H.

I submit if this survey had been done in the late ninties, after the double had become a rifle that was usable,because of ammo availability, and new doubles being made every day, as well as the old Britt doubles being affordable in the early 90s, the survey would have looked a little differently, IMO. With the average Safari company booking many more hunts than in the 60s,and the price of a good double going down for brand new ons, the PHs are starting to switch to doubles for DGRs, and use their 375H&H bolt rifles for plains game, and cats!

There is no way the double rifle would take the field away from, even factory off the shelf,K-Mart special, bolt rifles. I have never hunted with a PH who owned a double rifle, but I also have never hunted with one who did not play with my double rifle every chance he got. Addtionally, every one expressed a desire to own one, and a couple tried to trade me a hunt for mine. This could have been, on occasion, simply stroaking my furr, but I don't think it was!

I hunt far more with bolt, and single shot rifles than I do with a double rifle, but when I hunt dangerous game, I use a double if I have a choice.

Nobody here, or anyplace else, has an answer that will cover this debate to the sattisfaction of all. IMO, that is the way it should be, because all answers have merit, and all have problems, depending on the sittuation at hand,when in the field!

After using double rifles for all of my hunting for the last 4 years,uncluding 2 trips to Alaska, 3 trips to Montana, and all my hunting on my deer lease,[ except one Whitetail Buck with the Blaser 375, and one doe with the Blaser 300 Win,and one pig with the 308 Win bbl, just to try the new rifle out], I would pick a double rifle for any type of hunting where the shots are going to be around 100 yards or less, the main limitation being the iron sights. With my 9.3x74R and its 2.5x8 Leupold scope shots to 200 yards would be no problem, [ that is as far as I have shot the rifle on paper]. I would not be afraid to hunt Sheep,Goat, Anteleope or other "long range" type game with a scoped double rifle in the proper caliber. However dangerous game is where the double rifle shines. Because of all the problems I had with big bolt guns, not feeding or ejecting I went to doubles. It was the best money I ever spent. I have found the quick right/left of a double very handy even here in Texas, especially on Wild pigs.

John,
I never mentioned Miller or Echols and that was not in my intentions..I think Echols is one of the best gunbuilders in the modern world..I know he makes a very special plastic stocked gun..I will keep my comments about Miller to my self...You brought that subject up, not I....

As to PH's not wanting a double I doubt that for the most part..

And my only statment has been that it is a matter of choice not who is RIGHT or WRONG for goodness sake.

I also use my double as George described for the most part, or in areas where the grass or bush is bloody thick and shots are very close indeed.

I particularly like a double in the Moyowasi when it has not been burned or if a bull goes into the high grass, and that is apparant by my posts of last years hunt where in I used my double on a rogue Buffalo and my 416 for the other two.

Anyone who would prefer a bolt gun over a double in the high grass just has not hunted enough buffalo to be taught a lesson..If one has to use a bolt or a double isn't handy, we do what we have to and I have done that, mostly we get by with it...I know I feel much better with my double in that situation and thats all that counts to me...If I have to deal with a charge up close then I KNOW which gun is the best. But, it is still a matter of choices, smart choices or bad, the user has to live with it.