From the reading I've done, it looks pretty bleak.

Raise prices too high, and you kill the sport. Penalize for killing young males, and you kill the sport. Kill the sport and you will kill the lion.

Has canned hunting been outlawed? Whether purists like it or not, it seems to be the only sustainable form of lion hunting.

Canned lion hunting may take some pressure off wild lions, but it is not lion hunting and it will also deprive the wild lions of the cash that legal hunting brings(Aren't we always talking about the economic benefits that hunting brings to the target animal?)

If Makuti in 2003 was any indication, wild lions are not in quite the trouble that either side claims.(I hope that I am right, maybe that is just wishful thinking)

We do need to do everything we can to ensure the future of wild lions.

I think the quickest way to seal the fate of the African lion is to let the antis outlaw lion hunting.

In Africa, much of what you do wouldn't be considered "hunting" by U.S. standards -- or at least it isn't difficult hunting, so I don't see that as an objection to canned lions.

I also don't think it would take much pressure off of wild lion hunting as the people who would do canned hunting usually wouldn't do ANY lion hunting if they couldn't do the canned hunts. My argument isn't that canned hunting would be good (or bad) for the wild lion, just that it would allow hunters to take a lion who otherwise never could.

I've been told that canned lions are much more likely to charge the hunter than a wild lion would be.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
My argument isn't that canned hunting would be good (or bad) for the wild lion, just that it would allow hunters to take a lion.

I've been told that canned lions are much more likely to charge the hunter than a wild lion would be.

Maybe you were told, "They charge more for canned lions"....... Just kidding.


The BS about them being more dangerous. Well which do you think would be more dangerous: a wild lion that has to fight for surivival every day and sees man as a competitor(or easy meal), or a pen raised lion than has been in close contact with man from day one and receives his daily meals right out of his hand?

If all someone wants to do is "take" a lion, they should call one of the big cat breeders here in the US and ask if they can deliver an aging lion to their house. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:

Penalize for killing young males, and you kill the sport.

Why??? Why would proper harvest kill the sport?

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
In Africa, much of what you do wouldn't be considered "hunting" by U.S. standards -- or at least it isn't difficult hunting,

With all due respect and tongue firmly in cheek:

By reading that quote and the title of your post HERE can we assume that your total experience of about 10 days hunting in one area in one African country means that all of us who have walked our arses off for days and weeks on end have all been doing something wrong for all these years?

Only pulling your leg!

I don't think this gentlemen is trying to come across as an expert. Merely asking opinions. I don't think your post is called for Steve.

Silent T
He started out with:

quote:

With all due respect and tongue firmly in cheek:

And ended his post with:

quote:

Only pulling your leg!

I think you may have taken the post too seriously.

T,

You're not particularly big on the subtleties of English wit then?

Steve,

You have to make a bit of allowance for our friends from across the pond.

The British gave up after trying to teach them proper English for so many years, and left in disgust.

And the best part is they still beleive that they had kicked the British out

No, I get that it was a thinly disguised joke. I just get sick of the snarky attitude sometimes. But hey, it's not my thread. So i could say that Steve is a pain in the ass, blow hard, arm chair PH who spends a great deal more time on the internet than in the outdoors...and then say only kidding. I like this!

Nobody is hurting my feelings here. I am sure my five days on an RSA game ranch hasn't given me the full range of the African hunting experience -- to say the least!

I read (at least skimmed) over all the lion materials that I was pointed to in another thread. There was discussion in several places about criminalizing the taking of an underage lion. I.E., the hunter would have to stand trial. That would definitely have a chilling effect, I can say with some certainty!

T

You missed out the most important word (that incidentally is in the bottom line of all my posts) which is retired!

And the joke wasn't disguised at all...... subtle perhaps but not disguised and I'd have thought the first and last sentence might have been a bit of a give away.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Steve,

You have to make a bit of allowance for our friends from across the pond.

The British gave up after trying to teach them proper English for so many years, and left in disgust.

And the best part is they still beleive that they had kicked the British out

Nah...we just couldn't understand what they were saying!

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:


If all someone wants to do is "take" a lion, they should call one of the big cat breeders here in the US and ask if they can deliver an aging lion to their house. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

They already made that movie--and it was pretty good.

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Steve,

You have to make a bit of allowance for our friends from across the pond.

The British gave up after trying to teach them proper English for so many years, and left in disgust.

And the best part is they still beleive that they had kicked the British out

The funny part is the Brits think they were kicked out also---

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Steve,

You have to make a bit of allowance for our friends from across the pond.

The British gave up after trying to teach them proper English for so many years, and left in disgust.

And the best part is they still beleive that they had kicked the British out

The funny part is the Brits think they were kicked out also---

SSR

We lost interest in you damn colonials when you committed the dreadful sin of wasting all that perfectly good tea!

And don't for a moment think you're going to get rid of Paddy O Bama that easily either....... you can take him back for a start!

Must be one of those Black Irish I keep hearing about.

quote:

And don't for a moment think you're going to get rid of Paddy O Bama that easily either

At least the thought gives us something to "hope" for!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Smith:
Must be one of those Black Irish I keep hearing about.

You so dont want to go there-----

SSR

I will be the one to pull out the soap box here. No species of animal that has been managed by controlled sport hunting has became extinct.

In fact, controlled sport hunting, when done correctly only removes the excess members of a species from the overall numbers, there by reducing pressure on the habitat.

Also, sport hunters actually spend money that goes directly into the management of huntable species.

The folks that want lion hunting stopped are using it as a stepping stone. After lions they will focus on elephants and then work their way down the list.

These folks do not care about the long term existance of the species they are so dilligently trying to "Save", they just want to stop hunting. They do not care what species or how many species go extinct, their goal, first/last/always is to stop hunting in any form.

The folks that want lion/all hunting stopped have never contrbuted a dime to actual field studies of a species, and do not care or pay attention to any real evidence that field researchers have compiled. they just want hunting stopped.

CHC,

Very good post sir!

The Brits did get even with the Boers----they made and sent and sold the Land Rover...

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I will be the one to pull out the soap box here. No species of animal that has been managed by controlled sport hunting has became extinct.

In fact, controlled sport hunting, when done correctly only removes the excess members of a species from the overall numbers, there by reducing pressure on the habitat.

Also, sport hunters actually spend money that goes directly into the management of huntable species.

The folks that want lion hunting stopped are using it as a stepping stone. After lions they will focus on elephants and then work their way down the list.

These folks do not care about the long term existance of the species they are so dilligently trying to "Save", they just want to stop hunting. They do not care what species or how many species go extinct, their goal, first/last/always is to stop hunting in any form.

The folks that want lion/all hunting stopped have never contrbuted a dime to actual field studies of a species, and do not care or pay attention to any real evidence that field researchers have compiled. they just want hunting stopped.

Excellent Post!! Exactly why we ALL must conform, and do our best to follow sound game management practices. Otherwise, these clowns will get the control they want. Without realizing the detriment they will cause.

I think what is being overlooked, assuming I absorbed what I read, was that lion numbers have dropped dramatically because they "don't play well with others" and so as the native populations increase in size dramatically, the lion has been and will be reduced in numbers. Sport hunting has nothing to do with that.

As for sport hunting, it seems to be that these organizations that are trying to provide for their long term welfare want only lions past breeding age to be taken. I.E., ones over 6 years of age. So, you are talking about a small part of a small population. I didn't read anything about lionesses but apparently they are still being hunted.

I'd be interested in knowing how many lions and lionesses are taken by sports hunters each year.

As for canned hunting, I assume that was outlawed but I am still interested in knowing what it was like.

quote:

If all someone wants to do is "take" a lion, they should call one of the big cat breeders here in the US and ask if they can deliver an aging lion to their house. It would probably be a lot cheaper.

About 20 yeas ago, someone tried this here. He wanted a full body mount lion, so he bought a very old male from a "zoo" and took it in a cage to his taxidermist. The taxidermist brought out his 45ACP and had the owner lift the door to the cage. The aged lion walked slowly out and the taxidermist stuck the barrel into the lions ear and pulled the trigger. That's when it got interesting! The bullet did not penetrate to the brain and the lion was very angry and very awake. Fortunately they managed to kill it and nobody was seriously injured. I learned this from the taxidermist's partner, who though it was all very funny.

Darwin's thesis almost worked that day, but the lion died and the dumb humans lived.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
I think what is being overlooked, assuming I absorbed what I read, was that lion numbers have dropped dramatically because they "don't play well with others" and so as the native populations increase in size dramatically, the lion has been and will be reduced in numbers.

We are NOT overlooking that fact and it is correct. Actually...we are very well aware of it.

Sport hunting has nothing to do with that.

This however is incorrect. Sporthunting is what holds the populations away from what habitat is left. Without sport hunting and the blocks dedicated to it...the lion is immediately reduced to parks with native Africans knocking at the park doors to get in.

As for sport hunting, it seems to be that these organizations that are trying to provide for their long term welfare want only lions past breeding age to be taken. I.E., ones over 6 years of age. So, you are talking about a small part of a small population.

Basically this is correct.

I didn't read anything about lionesses but apparently they are still being hunted.

In smaller numbers in some areas...yes. Usually lioness are only hunted in thriving blocks with too many lion.

I'd be interested in knowing how many lions and lionesses are taken by sports hunters each year.

That statistic is in some of the supplemental reading on the WWW.liondiscussion.wikispaces.com website.

Lane in red.

I have never hunted lion and at this juncture don't intend to. Have hunted buffalo and intend to hunt leopard & ele. That said, I have been into a 200 acre enclosure where lions are raised in South Africa. I know they breed and sell them but don't think they offer canned hunts. The point is those lions are far from tame but are definitely unaffraid of humans. Last trip we were bring in a dead buf calf to feed them and one of the lionesses came half way into the back of land rover to help extract her lunch. I too was in the back of the land rover less than 2 feet from said lioness. Wasn't scared( not that smart I guess) but it does heighten ones senses. I don't know but can't seem to believe a lion acclimated to human interaction would be much sport. But on the other hand, if they aren't affraid of you and exhibit the natural cautions inherent in a totaly wild animal it could get intersting.

Which perhaps explains why I was told a farm raised lion was much more likely to charge if wounded. I can't say it is true, just that a PH told me this.

The "sport" to hunting a wild lion comes, I suppose, from the huge time investment required to find a mature male. Once found, how different would it be from shooting a canned lion? (This is a question for someone who is familiar with both.)

But, I'm not likely to get an answer because no one wants to own up to shooting a canned lion.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:

The "sport" to hunting a wild lion comes, I suppose, from the huge time investment required to find a mature male. Once found, how different would it be from shooting a canned lion? (This is a question for someone who is familiar with both.)

I have never hunted a canned lion but

"hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset"

So, as you state, the final "mechanical" act of pulling the trigger is probably the same but the "emotional an phsycological" act of pulling the trigger very, very different.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:

The "sport" to hunting a wild lion comes, I suppose, from the huge time investment required to find a mature male. Once found, how different would it be from shooting a canned lion? (This is a question for someone who is familiar with both.)

I have never hunted a canned lion but

"hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset"

So, as you state, the final "mechanical" act of pulling the trigger is probably the same but the "emotional an phsycological" act of pulling the trigger very, very different.

+1
Some of my fondest memory's have come from the pursuit of free range Lion. Certainly not the kill but the whole experience.

Well people who can afford wild lion hunts criticizing canned lion hunts are sort of like a rich man criticizing a poor man for eating hamburger patties instead of sirloin steak.

Also, there's this about shooting a lion, whether wild or canned (from what I was told), that if you don't hit it right you may be charged. So, that would be an additional similarity in the experience.

Finally, there's always a balance between difficulty of a hunt, in terms of finding the game, and it being too easy. As it becomes harder and harder to find a wild lion --well I can hunt lions all I want in my backyard with no daily fees!

Don't get me wrong, I know a canned hunt wouldn't be as good as a wild lion hunt, if there are wild lions to be shot, but I think those days may be passing except for a few financial elite. I also don't think that canned lion hunt providers woudl be taking dollars away from the wild lion outfitters. It is two separate markets, IMO.

And finally, I think there might be ways to make canned hunts more challenging without running the price thru the roof, by using larger plots of land, and raising lions that eat natural game, for example. I think it would be worth looking at.

quote:

Well people who can afford wild lion hunts criticizing canned lion hunts are sort of like a rich man criticizing a poor man for eating hamburger patties instead of sirloin steak.

That has nothing to do with money. Canned lion shooting is not hunting.
They are raised in cages like chicken and put in a fenced area to be hunted as soon as they are old enough. In which weird world could this be considered as hunting?

So is shooting an impala hunting? It's very easy. Is shooting an animal over bait hunting? (BTW, don't they do that with lions?)

Perhaps what I am describing wouldn't be correctly called "canned" then. I am suggesting raising lions behind fences, not in pens or cages. Not hand fed, but raised on game.

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
So is shooting an impala hunting? It's very easy.

If you shoot (more or less tame) impala on a padock it's not hunting. I'e butched plenty of animals and never thought this could be hunting.

If you hunt a big population of impalas on a big fenced area it is (a kind of) hunting because they really life there "wild". They breed, they feed and they have enough room to escape.
Just my opinion.

quote:

Perhaps what I am describing wouldn't be correctly called "canned" then. I am suggesting raising lions behind fences, not in pens or cages. Not hand fed, but raised on game.

A normal size game farm could never hold "free" lions They just eat to much game. Big big farms (maybe +30000hectars) could but then it's not really a canned lion anymore, i guess

quote:

Originally posted by postoak:
So is shooting an impala hunting? It's very easy. Is shooting an animal over bait hunting? (BTW, don't they do that with lions?)

Whether it easy or not does not dictate whether it is hunting or not.

Is shooting over a bait hunting? Absolutely, To deceive or out smart a wild animal in it own natural environment is hunting.

If you really want to take a lion trophy with a chance of a charge at a low cost then perhaps a SA Lion is for you?