Ooops, this could be a dangerous question. "Lochi, don't pull the tiger's tail. Who are you from the Dark continent to challenge the leaders of the First world?"

Let me explain:
First I am told that South African banking systems are as technically advanced as can be expected anywhere in Europe or the US. Is that true? My daughter recently spent 5 months in the US and did not have great compliments for the banks out there. Small sample though. My friend is a bank manager and he says the smaller American banks are inward looking and seem to struggle with international transactions.
Secondly I find it frustrating that American banks keep advising my clients to pay their deposits by mailed checks (cheques) rather than to "wire" it (telegraphic transfer). My bank (ABSA) tells me exactly the opposite. They say all SA banks are discouraging their clients to accept international checks of any kind, and my local branch says they receive hundreds of wired transactions a day with no problems. At worst checks get lost (and I would like not to be accountable for that), and at best they get sent back for verification, which takes 8 weeks. This is some sort of control against fraudulent money laundering practices.
They say that the client's bank must wire the money, using (for instance) my bank's "swift code" (ABSAZAJJ in the case of ABSA), my bank account number 12345... and my formal name J. P. Lochner (not "L. Lochner" or other nick names). Then nothing, but nothing can go wrong. The client's bank will still give him a reference number, the name of his bank's branch from where the transfer took place, and the amount transferred. This information is called "field 20 on the MT 103" in bank linga. With that info I can trace it from this end if something still were to go wrong.

Convenience and lowering of the risks have to be considered as well here. For instance, when my clients want to pay me here with American Express travellers checks, I can potentially save money by cashing it for a better US$ to Rand exchange rate and zero commission at the nearest American Express branch, then take the money to my bank to deposit. However, that involves risks and carting my client from pillar to post in lines in town rather than hunting with him. So, I simply sacrifice those small savings in the bigger picture of better service by taking the client directly to my bank for safe, convenient payment directly into my account, while they serve us tea.

Being new to the profession, my experience with this issue is limited of course. I am looking at the boys of AR to advise me here, in order to better advise my clients.
Thanx,
Lochi.

I wanted to order something from the US. The shop's reply: "Our credit card processing service has advised us not to accept credit card payments from any countries outside of the USA due to the large number of bad transactions taking place". My card is a Mastercard.

Lochi, shouldn't we do the same, accept all credit cards except the ones from the US? First world?


Sunshine

My girl friend manages a small local bank here in Richmond, Virginia. There's few if any international transactions passing through her bank. This is because the locals, farmers, merchants, businessmen, householders seldom have international business to conduct.
In the larger state wide banks, they think international transaction is West Virginia! They may very well be right. The nation wide banks should be able to handle any international transaction but ignorance, laziness, terminal stupidity is not limited to those in government service.
Jim

My experiences are just opposite. Twice , my local ,SMALL TOWN bank in Montana wired funds to Namibia were they were "lost" in the wrong account for weeks. Of the three transactions like this ,two were screwed up in some fashion.I have always wondered why the hunting industry in Africa does not use credit cards to allow their clients to settle up with trophy fees, etc. at the hunt's conclusion.Most camps, no matter how remote, have internet access. It should be a simple matter to get the proper equipment to do this.

My bank, a small national bank, and the one I used before this [totaling 27 years] have never even looked at me oddly when I requested wire transfers! They merely asked " where should it be sent to?" and it was there the next day!

Some might prefer to send checks as they get a hard copy of it back and can verify that it was received and cashed. They also get to keep the money in their account longer .

I've only once had a problem using my credit card in RSA and that was because of the size of the charge[ 1/2 daily rates and all trophy fees]- I'll give the bank notice before I leave next time!

I've never had a PH or outfitter take me to the bank or AMEX to cash travelers checks. Why bother? These checks are just like money only safer, just deposit them in your account as a check! If an outfitter will not take a credit card or travelers checks they put all the risk [carrying cash] on the foreign client which seems rather selfish. I would find someone else to hunt with.

It is a simple matter to solve. If those of you in Africa find it too much of a pain to do business with us, you can stop taking our money in any form (LOL).

Are you trying to say, that my last attempt at an international wire transfer that took three months and two attempts at $75 dollars each is not normal?

I have done them in larger cities with no problems. In my current location, a look of horror and dismay appeared when I requested the transfer--welcome to the Mississippi Delta.

Lochi,

First off most americans have little need to do wire transfers, the percentage doing wire tranfers is very small. I could see where the small banks in rual areas would have trouble with it, its very seldom done, kind of like going to a mexican resturant and trying to order chinese food. Go to the larger cities and walk into a Bank of America or Wells Fargo and they can do it with no problem, they do it all the time, but it costs $45 at Bank of america.

Well, well, something I can speak to with confidence and authority. South African banks are very good and very modern. Have used ABSA and others for transactions and they were handled with extreme professionalism. However, the banking industry in South Africa is very concentrated in a few very large banks with branches across the country.

Quite different in the good ol' U.S., where we have over 5,000 small market, community, regional , national and international banks! Capitalism and free enterprise at work, you know! Though all follow the same Federal rules and state guidelines we all specialize in different things and international wires and dealing with international exchange rates may not be one of them. Some banks just don't need to specialize in it because they very rarely see them (hence the cost of specialized personnel outweighs the profitability). Most banks like the one in Montana have upstream correspondents that can do the transaction for them. We wire our international wires through Citibank! So middleman costs can increase the cost to you of an international wire. This sometimes increases the cost to the consumer that forces him to buy a cashier check and mail it to an outfitter. International wires cost us around $75 where the cashiers check costs $3 plus the international air mail post. Quite a difference.

On the subject of residents of African countries having problems using checks in payments in the U.S. Part of it is the Government of the U.S. and a piece of legislation called the Patriot Act. Since 9/11 we have to verify who opens accounts with us ESPECIALLY folks from foreign shores. I am sorry about that but it is the law of the land and meant to identify and curb terrorist activity. It has slowed our processes, added to the regulatory burden for us and increased the hassle-factor for our customers and we regret that BUT it has reduced much of the flow of money to radical functions in our country.

Another reason is the Nigerian types scams some of you may have seen. You get an e-mail from some foreign dignitary who claims to be part of the government and is willing to split 20+million clams with you if you will just give him wiring instructions and your bank account information. Some guillable individual who thinks he just won the lotto does just that and finds his account cleaned out and in Nigeria soon after and that money is never found again. I have received these from Nigeria, Somalia, the Sudan, Zim, and South Africa! If you have traveled Africa lately you will see internet cafes springing up all over the place in the most interesting neighborhoods! One can suspect that while the average user is just checking out the world-wide web, others are up to more nefarious activities!

Lochi, I have traveled to the RSA many times and would find it hard to call your country anything but "first-world" certainly not third! You have a beautiful country with a wonderful infrastructure and modern, bustling cities. I have always thought I would love to retire in St. Lucia or Port Elizabeth! Please don't think of Americans as people who look down our noses at the rest of the world. The majority do not and many envy what you have in other parts of the world!

I wire money all the time from the smallest bank in the USA, Filer, Idaho and without problems...

American banks will not guarentee payment of a wire to a foriegn 3rd world bank of which RSA is one and since the fall of apartied, surely you can understand that!! Consider you telephone systems problems, you postal system, then tell me RSA banking is up to snuff..Its not, and I have been in this business many years...

You will find that all the very successful SAfari companies have bank accounts in the USA, Switzerland and in Off Shore banks, where we send our money and they write checks on those banks..but you will need a backer in the USA to accomplish this, and he will have to stand up for you by assuming your credit risks.

Surly your aware that RSA banks, and the RSA government is asking everyone where they have money in banks outside of RSA, ever wonder why? be forewarned..

It's up to you, but I wouldn't put a dime of my money, nor pay the exhorbant taxation of the new regime..nor would I care one iota if RSA refused to take my wires or checks, that would simply be another step in the downfall of RSA, and should they ever decide to do so, then guess who it ruins? you my friend, not those with money in more secure places, and that cuts the competition in the Safari business...

Bottom line, be carefull what you wish for, you just might get it...

Not flaming or argueing with you, just some advise for you to consider or discard, up to you...

I guess I just don't get the comment about taking the client to the bank to cash traveller's checks? Once signed over, they are like cash- so where is the problem? Take them to the bank and deposit them yourself in your account and be done with it. I'd be surprised if any bank in the world would turn down Traveller's checks.
I've not had any problems with wiring money the few times I've done it, but the $45 charge kind of puts a kink in my willingness to do this just for someone's convenience unless there is some benefit in it for me. Most banks around here will arrange a wire transfer without blinking as long as you have all the proper routing numbers.

Lochi, maybe you should look into improving your customer service by making it as easy as possible for the customer to pay for your services. The people I've dealt with for guided trips and my one safari so far, have all been more than willing to take cash, travellers checks, and credit cards and never even blinked. Of course, expecting a client to carry the amount of cash required for a safari is asking a bit much, IMHO. - Sheister

Lochi,

My father's companies deal with Citibank and ABN AMRO (a Dutch bank, but they own La Salle Bank in Chicago and other locations) and we have never had any problem.

I have an account with a smaller bank called Bank One and they are more than happy to do electronic transfers as is Associated Bank where my wife has an account.

If you are in a real hurry, even small towns here seem to have a Western Union Money Transfer service - it is no issue at all.

My OLD small town bank WILL NOT wire internationally, even though I raised hell about the inconvenience it was causing me. So I opened an account in another small town bank that has an associate bank that will do so. Since I haven't used that service, I don't know what the charges might be.

Taking credit cards solves a lot of problems.

A friend in Australia tried for three weeks to wire me money. He finally gave up and sent it Western Union and it arrived the next day.

Except for the very largest U.S. banks, most are not well equiped to wire money, at least not inexpensively. Smaller banks tend to use large correspondent banks (Bank Of America, Citigroup, Chase, etc.) or financial services firms like American Express to handle these transactions. Even the large banks assess heavy fees to transfer "small" amounts (under $1 million) and the exchange rates are usually very unfavorable (10-20% off spot rates). The most favorable exchange rates and least expensive way to send money overseas I know of is to use a credit card or purchase a bank draft or travelers checks.

I deal with Wachovia, who happens to be the corresponding bank in the US for ABSA. I have never had problem one. Also, for those of you who think that traveller's cheques are "just like cash" in Africa, bad news. When you hand your safari operator traveller's cheques drawn on US$, the bank will charge him to transfer that money and exchanging it to ZAR.
To politely disagree with Ray, I have generally had very pleasant experiences with ABSA. They allow me to do much of the banking from the US with no extra fees on my account there, and I can do much of my banking on the South African account I have thru ATM machines here in the states, such as make deposits, transfer from savings to checking and pay my cell phone bill. That doesn't sound too technologically backwards to me, just MHO.

Toby,

maybe in Jo'burg, but surely not in Cape Town.

Lochi- How about that credit card machine in camp? Talk about a problem solver!! Then you could have those funds deposited wherever you so desired!

Lochi

Generalising

WE are in an electronic age so my feeling is that personal and bank cheques are a thing of the past ..

IMHO opinion a telegraphic transfer is the most convenient and efficient way to get money from one persons account to another.

Mostly a telegraphic transfer will require the sender to go to his bank and provide them with a receivers Bank account Full Name / Account # / and SWIFT code. That should be all that is needed in theory if the senders bank has the knowledge expected of him in this modern world.

Most banks charge a set fee to process sending a T/T and most of the receivers banks also charge a processing fee. In New Zealand my bank charges a NZ $25 fee to make a T/T and about the same for a clearance fee when a T/T is rec'd.

I dont know if we are leading the world or it is the run of the mill thing BUT my bank [ ANZ Bank New Zealand ] allows me to use my internet banking to make a T/T myself from my desktop ... I can actually electronically send money via my internet bank account to a nominated bank account to most places in the world from my PC at home.

Regards hunting clients I have found that most clients prefer to make an initial booking deposit T/T then a second balloon payment T/T just prior to departure to hunt thus saving them the hassle of taking along large amounts of travelers cheques or hard currency, it works well forboth parties.

Regards, Peter

A couple of points not mentioned here--1) Wire transfers aren't real common to USA folks because they are EXPENSIVE!! Not conducive to attract use! I avoid them like the plague. 2) Credit cards (MC, Visa) may sound like a good deal, but are you aware that the recipient pays a minimum of 2.5%, and often 3%? I sure can't blame operators for not using them. I sure as hell wouldn't (and don't in my business)! 3) Those damn travellers checks are also expensive, hence I don't use them either. I either carry cash, which I really don't like, but regularly do throughout the world, or pay through my booking agent. He is usually putting my personal check directly in a USA account of the PH or outfitter.

HHMag,
Your not disagreeing with me at all as far as I can tell..

I wire very large amounts of money all the time via Filer Idaho to different banks in RSA, Zimbabwe,Tanzania, Botswana and other countries, but inasmuch as the US won't be responsible for lost monies to a 3rd world powers by wire, I have an understanding with my foriegn associates that I will not be responsible, if they are lost...So far I have never lost a dime, but I feel a lot better just sending a personal check to their bank acct. in the USA and letting them do the transfers to their other accounts....To me thats just smart business....These wires generally cost me a lot less than what I see here..I pay $25.00 for 99% of my wires..

Travelors checks BTW are not accepted at all in Tanzania banks, it is worthless currency there, so the safari company must bring them back to the USA, or RSA to cash them...Reason being that Tanzania is alive with bogus travelers checks...

That said, I can think of a lot of places I would rather my money be than in RSA, or any African country, considering the present governments and there ability to change from day to day on a whim without reason..For those who like doing business in those banks, be my guest, its just not for me, and I won't invest in land or business in those countries either...again that is a personal choice and not ment to have any influence on anyone one way or the other.

Hello Ray

You and I proved that it works just fine from Filer Idaho to New Zealand and from NZ back to Idaho ..

The wonders of modern technology and human endevour, dont try to go back to the dark ages, use modern technology and survive

Peter

Sheister,



There might be another reason why PH's ask clients to go to the bank to cash traveller's checks. I was told that if a PH cash/deposits the traveler's checks it's trackable income and subject to very high taxation. A tourist shows up at the bank and cashes them and subsequently turned over to PH in cash form it's not as trackable.



I've had no problems making one or two wire transfers from suburban banks in this area every year and am only getting charged $25.



And indeed, another reason why the US banking industry might be getting more and more difficult in International transactions is all the fraud attempts. It seems to be a cottage industry in Africa trying to sham money via computers. Banks only get scammed a couple times before enacting tougher rules.

Arts- To have the ability to transfer offshore for 2.5-3 points is CHEAP when compared to the tax burden in certain African countries. When I was using a simple direct deposit machine at my small business, we could change the recipient by using a short and easy reprogramming procedure.

Diversity of opinion on AR as always. In the SA context "diversity" has become a buzz word that has a positive connotation and is politically correct.
Ray, I am sorry to see how little chance you give South Africa. I have to remind you that we lead the world in heart transplants, fuel-from-coal technology, deep mining, game capturing, some aspects of bio-diversity .... Also, I do not quite follow your advice, but I with read it again. Thank you, I value and respect your experience.
Lhowell and Scheister, travellers checks are not the same as cash (else they would not have existed next to cash). The client cannot pay the outfitter in travellers checks and get onto the plane, since it is "3rd party payment". The primary reason for this is not to protect the recipient, but the signatory of the check, should it fall in the wrong hands. I tried that, and struggled for 4 months to get my money. I only got it in the end because I have been with ABSA for 38 years so they trust me by now.
As far as commissions and admin fees go, the total "lost" is more in the case of the mailed check (back and forth to the US) than with the wiring process. I would rather carry those costs myself in all cases than to have my client feeling upset about a hidden cost of $25 or $75. (Amazing that wiring money from here to the US only costs R50!)
Matt Norman, you were ill informed. When I take my clients to the bank, they could not care whether he pays them in travellers checks, cash or salt bag. What goes into my bank account is the Rand equivalent of whatever he paid me, minus commission (paid by the recipient). Tax does not come into this at all. Your informant was searching for evil where it is not.

For as long as I do not have the ability to buy a (small) bank in the US, I shall do the following in future:
� Continue to encourage clients to pay their deposits by wiring them, offering to pay the $25 or $75.
� When the client insists on mailing it (since his bank cannot wire money), I will simply put up with the risks and inconveniences to both parties (he is the client after all).
� Continue to encourage my clients to bring travellers checks to pay me with once in RSA, though take them to my bank only, and not first to American Express for lesser fees.
� Advise he brings a credit card for cash withdrawals and purchases from shops.

Thank you gents.
Lochi.

Lochi,

It seems that the obvious solution to all this is to accept creit cards.

Surely the "fees" would be offset by the security, ease of doing business, more favorable exchange rates, and client satisfaction.

Just be sure to tell your clients to give their banks notice where they will be traveling so charges will not be refused as "unusual".

Les

Why not determine in advance what the transaction fee would be if the client paid by credit card and add that fee on? It would be nice to be able to make the decision whether or not to pay the credit card transaction fee or do the wire transfer. My rural bank (Greencastle, PA.) charges me $30 USD per wire transfer, and they are quite able and willing to do them. Yes, it is a pain, but I suspect that the cost of a wire transfer would be considerably less than the cost of a credit card transaction.

Let's assume your transaction is in the amount of $5000 USD. A 2%fee would be $100. Since most companies charge 2.5% or higher, I think it is reasonable to assume that the cost of a credit card transaction would usually be higher than the cost of a wire transfer. It is not reasonable to assume that the safari outfitter should bear the cost of a credit card transaction, thus giving you, the hunter, a discount. Of course, such discounts would be welcome if you outfitters would like to convey them.

I believe that adding the credit card fee to the payment amount is a violation of most major credit cards contract agreement. I'm not sure about a "discount for cash" [wire, travelers checks, etc.]

While we're at this, maybe the "escrow agent" concept that was discussed by "The Hunting Report" recently would be a solution to several of these problems at once!

Les

About 10 o'clock our time this morning, I was at the bank and transferred some funds to a fellow member for some goods.

Before 8 in the evening, I got a PM from him saying he has already gotten the money!!??

Is that a record of some sort?

Less than 10 hours from the time I initiated the transfer to hearing that the recepient has gotten it.

That's good, BUT, it cost you a bunch of money! That is why I don't like wire transfers. It is a rip off. That is $25 or whatever pissed away.

As for credit cards, the charge is easily passed to the user by several methods (legal ones), but the point is, the "simplicity" is quite costly--2.5 - 3%.

Why the big deal over taking the damn cash? Saves everybody hassle! Or, better yet, pay through a booking agent ahead of time, or after the fact when possible. Simple, cost free!

Saeed,



I'm pleased to say that I've beaten your record. I had a client last year who transferred funds from the Pakistan branch of (I believe)the Faysal Bank to a UK offshore account and it arrived in less than 8 hours!



.......but I was less please when this year, it took 3 WEEKS to transfer funds from one UK offshore account to another offshore account......To add insult to injury, the 2 islands were only a few miles apart!

Bwanamich,
I don't know where you have been old buddy, but last year the banks and no one else was accepting Travelers checks according to the many safari companies in Tanzania that I am in contact with...As the country was alive with counterfiet Travelers checks...

Most of my clients book early and pay me 100% up front and an excessive amount for trophy fees...I pay the PH at SCI for all those early bookings in cash..when the client gets back we settle up the difference...

Also some pay all the daily rate, and then pay the trophy fees with a Credit card in RSA and Zimbabwe...

Art,It may not be wise to carry an excessive amount of cash to Africa..as your only allowed $9000 if I recall and can only take that much out...Also Some safaris would not come close to being paid up with $9000. that said, I have carried exceptionally large amounts of money to Africa in the past, but no more..I never told a living soul that I was carry that money and I walked around town with it, but youth is reckless..

Ask Ted Blackburn, as he and his daughter got kidnaped in RSA, by a man who was sent to pick them up and they were hidden in a house in Soweta, and robbed of a very large amount of cash, and believe it or not got turned loose, which makes me damn sure the man (a well known gunsmith) he was doing business with set him up, but I don't know that for a fact, but no one else knew he was bringing cash, as he was told to do, and the So. African Police were of no help what-so-ever, as one would expect....

I have no problems at all with the wire transfer system as long as the reciever understands that I will not be held responsible for the money once it leaves my hands, and the banks in the USA will NOT guarentee payment to a foriegn country in the 3rd world...that said I have never lost a dollar in many years of doing all kinds of business in RSA, Botswana, Tanzania and Zimbabwe..

I won't say how much money I move to Africa each year by wire but it certainly is a substantial amount in anyones book and so far so good...The system IS working, but things can do a complete turn around in Africa in the skip of a heart beat..

Mr. Atkinson--I agree, I would never take that much cash. I really don't understand why folks don't just take care of it all ahead of time. I am a strong believer in using a good, quality booking agent. It takes care of all these money hassles, as well as alleviating concern over the quality of PH or outfitter you are going to be with. A good one just makes life sooooo easy.

hmmmm, interesting. We've always asked for trophy fees etc to be paid for in cash or T/C at the conclusion of the hunt, but I guess with the aid of a PC & a sat phone, it would probably be possible to take payment by credit card or internet banking, no matter where you were. But are there many clients out there who would be happy for us to do so?

I look forward to reading your comments gentlemen ....and ladies.

Steve- I would be interested to see what type of credit card equipment you had access to. Who does not have a Visa card? It just seems like such a great solution. The vendor immediatly has the $ in the account and the purchaser has a high degree of protection. The only hitch for the consumer would be to notify the company to expect those charges from that location.I'm trying to see the downside and can't find it.

I'm thinking that the percentage charged is higher in a foriegn country or a tax or something is added that makes it a tad expensive, but not out of line as I recall...Help me with this, I may be haveing flashbacks again..

Speaking only for myself on this subject, I paid all of my trophy fees, tips, bar tab and remaining balance last year in Dar es Salaam using American Express travelers' checks denominated in US dollars.

Also, I don't think it's terribly smart to carry large amounts of cash, but if you want to do it, you can take as much cash out of the country as you can get into your luggage, as long as you declare all of it (assuming that it's more than $10K).

Huh?

I have sent wire transfers a bunch of times from my home town bank. Even the tellers whose life expectancy is usually about 2 weeks, know all about them.

Strange stuff about banks that don't. Maybe people are yanking your chain.