Good day all,

I've been a lurker and avid reader of AR for a number of years. I much appreciate and respect the knowledgeable people in this community.

I'm at a point in my life where I will begin to hunt Africa's dangerous game, starting with Buff and Tuskless Ele in Zim (possible add on Hippo/Croc) in 2020.

A few questions come to mind as I order my first custom built DG rifle that I would value your feedback on.

Main Rifle: Model 70 action, beautiful Walnut custom wood-stock (well-known maker). 4 cartridge mag, no sights. 416 Rem Mag chamber.

I plan on using softs on buff: Barnes 350 gr. TSX, the 350 gr CEB MTH or the 370 gr. Northfork SS; whichever shoots best. For Ele and Hippo, I'd try to match to the same brand of solids, also in 350-370 gr. weight.

Question #1: What barrel length should I get and twist rate? The gunsmith has a 21 3/4" 1:14 twist Lilja barrel that a customer ordered but decided against. The gunsmith is willing to provide the barrel free of charge in the build. Otherwise, I can order any custom barrel from a few well-known makers from between 22" to 25" (longest barrel recommended). I kinda like 'free barrel' and heard from a couple of PHs that barrel length is not one of their main concerns. This said, my Plains Game rifle (300 H&H) has a 25" barrel so it might make some sense to match barrel lengths of both rifles.

Question #2: What scope would you recommend? The gunsmith will mount and test the rifle and scope combo to ensure 100% reliability and has had several well-known makers last 20+ years and some fail on him after just a few rounds. He has no specific scope preference as long as it's a 1" to 30mm tube and no more than a recommended 8x on the high end and at most 40mm objective. The two scopes that came highly recommended are:

• Swarovski Z8i 1-8x24 with illuminated on/off 4A-IF reticle OR the
• S&B 1-8x24 Exos, FlashDot illumination w/ FD4 or FD7 reticle

Question #3: Should I have the rifle cerakoted for eventual use on Alaska Brown Bears or Kamchatka Browns and also have a separate fiberglass stock ordered for it? Else, I can always use my 300 H&H on Alaska bears which is already cerakoted and fiberglass.

24 inches.

Leupold 2.5-8x.

I would probably go with a shorter barrel. Weight means a lot with a long day of tracking.

If you are dealing with a really high end maker no way I’d cerakote it. The wood will be an artwork, and I’d probably want a really nice rust blue. I’d also want some sort of back up sights, either good irons or have QD scope mounts with a second pre sighted scope.

I’ve personally gone with a Swarovski z6 1.7-10 on my .416’s- they really don’t kick that bad and are accurate. The extra magnification has helped on small antelope in thick cover. However, saeed’s Leupold 2-8 is a lighter scope option. The illumination is more useful for cats than buff in my experience.

Your bullet choices are not bad, but I’m more in to the SD .3 stuff. 400 grains in a .416. The 370 Northfork flat point solid goes through elephant fine, and supposedly the reason it’s 370 grains is that gives the same bullet length as a 400 grain conventional bullet. I don’t see the advantage of going 25% lighter in a .416. With what you will be shooting at range wise, an extra couple hundred FPS isn’t buying you anything, and if you are doing it for recoil, step down to a .375.

Standard .416 twist rate is fine unless you want to move up to the heavy for caliber stuff (450+ gr. Bullets.)

Unless you want your PH annoyed with you, no muzzle break. If you can’t shoot it without one, you are better off with a .375 anyhow. The .416 doesn’t whack them that much harder.

What Saeed said.
My DG rifle was a M70, 416 Rem Mag, Leupold scope. I always used 350g Swift A Frame.

I would take the "free barrel" but add sights and QD mounts. Matching the barrel length is not an issue, there two different guns. A few fps in velocity is not an issue on a DGR rifle.



1.75/2.5x to - 6/8x on the scope. I prefer Leupold because of the lighter weight. I would also lean toward a max of 6 power. DG is no going to be shot at 100+ yards unless you are going after a wounded animal. FOV will be more important than magnification.

no cerrakote.

and I would find another country other than Zimbabwe

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
24 inches.

Leupold 2.5-8x.

If a 100 questions were asked about rifle setups for different shooting that answer would cover most of them

I like a longer barrel, 24 inches is about right, because it just hangs better and is steadier from the offhand position.

I also like Schmidt & Bender glass. The Flash Dot illuminated reticles are among the best available. A low range variable in the 1-4x, 1-6x or 1-8x range would be ideal, IMHO.

TalusHunterCA,

I think you've made a good choice in caliber and I really think larger is not necessary. Your bullets are perfect and just pick the one that shoots the best in your new rifle. Barrel length for a DG rifle doesn't matter a great deal. I'd have it initially cut long and see how it hangs. If it feels muzzle heavy shorten it until you like it. I don't see the need to put thousands in a scope. As Saeed suggested I think the 2.5x8 Leupold is about perfect and it won't add a full pound or more to your rifle's weight. A 2nd sited in backup scope in quick detachable mounts would be a good thing also. The cerakote can't hurt a thing and it looks nice. A separate synthetic stock makes good sense also if your thinking AK in the future.

Have fun with this and best of luck on your safari.

Mark

1. As a value-minded consumer, I'd take the free barrel vs. paying for an extra couple inches. I would use the savings to add some rugged open sights (if your eyes allow their use) and Talley quick-detach rings.

2. I would use a Leuopld 1-4. I'd shoot the croc with the 300 H&H. With your intent to use on bears... Leupold 2-7 or 2.5-8. I think the scope is a potential hindrance on a Tuskless at 20yds. My .375 has a Leupold 1-4 heavy duplex. My .458s have only open sights.

3. Wouldn't hurt, if you prefer it that way. If I was going to have just 1 DG rifle, I really might do that.

I really like the .416s. If you are going to try & body-shoot that hippo on land, consider the .33 SD of the 400 grain bullets, vs. the .289 of the 350s.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
24 inches.

Leupold 2.5-8x.

Agree 24" barrel don't get heavy contour though it's not a varmint rifle so you don't need to worry about it heating up.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
24 inches.

Leupold 2.5-8x.

Jeeze I hate it when you waffle on Saeed. Just answer the questions directly why don't you

Saeed, thank you. I am thinking of getting the shorter barrel and upgrading to a longer 24" barrel if I don't like the balance or feel. I am also considering a Leupold VX-5HD 1-5x24mm as an option, but I am still researching.

crbutler, thank you. I am considering just purchasing a second rifle in 375 H&H with a synthetic stock to cerakote and use in AK or as second rifle when on a DG hunt. This way, I have one classic wood-stocked rifle for most South-East African weather and one that I can beat up in any weather. I will be ordering a second set of scope mounts to pre-sight in a back-up scope. As to bullet choices, I am still open to 400 gr. bullets, especially if they happen to be more accurate. Definitely no muzzle brake.

JBoutfishn, thank you. The swift bullets are also a consideration. Ultimately, since I am not a handloader, I will work with a custom ammunition maker (any recommendations anyone? ex. like Superior Ammunition) to produce a ladder sampling and work up best loads.

Mike_Dettorre, thank you too. Leupold is now a consideration. Please feel free to PM me as to which other country you'd consider if not Zimbabwe. I haven't booked a hunt so this might be a new topic of discussion- I am just beginning my research and am about 18-20 months out. I am open to other countries and I briefly looked at Mozambique, Zambia and Tanzania. All have pros/cons and Zim seemed like a good value introduction to elephant hunting with tracking up to two Tuskless Ele (at $5-$6K each in trophy fees), plus some buff and other combo hunting.

Mike McGuire, thank you. Point well taken.

Michael Robinson, thank you. I very well may just do the longer barrel. I am considering the shorter one for now and for an upgrade and install cost, get a 24" if that seems to suit me best. Before that decision gets finalized, I will try to meet someone that I was introduced to so that I can get my hands on a shorter-barreled rifle for feel.

I agree that S&B glass is great. I almost bought one at SCI after having visited Swaro and Leupold booths. It's in my top three choices right now. Cost is a factor in that I wanted to get two scopes, one as a back-up. Having a $3K back-up scope sitting in a backpack for years isn't my cup of tea, but I'd happily keep a pre-sighted $500-$800 Leupold and an extra set of mounts squirreled away- so that may be the direction that I take. What do most serious hunters do? Carry two premium scopes or just bring two scope rifles or both?

MARK H. YOUNG, thank you. I am surprised at how many knowledgeable people like Leupold scopes. I appreciate your feedback.

Baker458, thank you. I appreciate your responses. You make a lot of good points too. I will likely end up with two DG rifles, one wood-stocked and one in synthetic; a 416 rem mag and likely a 375 H&H (or gasp, 375 Weatherby). You're probably right on the dry land hippo; I will try some 400 gr bullet loaded ammo before making any decisions on lighter weight ones.

chuck375, thank you. I'll need to ask about barrel contour and know that the gunsmith has build many in rifles in this caliber before. IIRC, total rifle weight without scope is going to be near 8.5 pounds, depending on final wood density.

Bakes, Saeed certainly speaks his mind and based on his DG experience, is highly valued.

Having a back up scope is a great idea. I had a Swarovski 1.25-4x24 variable break on me on one trip. Having back up iron sights on your rifle is a good idea, too . . .

I think my Swaro broke because the rifle must have moved in the case - so that the scope was up against the hard aluminum side of it - and I suspect that the case must have been banged around pretty hard.

The rifle was a .416 Rigby that I had brought as a back up to my .500 A-Square. My .500 was iron-sighted and did not have a scope on it, as I wanted to use iron sights on my elephant on that trip.

My .416 also had iron sights, and I didn't bring any back up scope, so all I had upon arrival were two iron-sighted rifles and the broken Swaro.

It turned out that I didn't need the back up rifle for my elephant, as the .500 did the job on that trip from fairly close range with iron sights - plan accomplished.

I did end up using the iron sighted .416, though, on a zebra from 125 yards or so. It was kind of fun. Old school safari hunting! I was wishing I had time for more plains game!

Swarovski fixed the broken scope at no charge, by the way.

On my next trip, later this year, my primary scope will be a Schmidt & Bender 1-8x42 Stratos, with the F7 FlashDot reticle. I'll bring another S&B along, probably my old 1.25-4x20 S&B with an F4 FlashDot. It's over 15 years old, so it only cost me about $1.5K!

As a wise man once said: Quality comes with a price, but it is always worth it.

Or, as another wise man once put it: Buy the best and cry only once.

Good luck on your safari!

Why choose a caliber that is borderline obsolete? And high pressure to boot (I seem to recall someone having extraction problems in Africa with this caliber). A 375 H&H will do the job with ease on both ends, and a 458 Win Mag is a lot easier (and cheaper) to find ammo for. The action is also shorter (and cheaper). If you want something in between and don't care about ammo availability, the classy choice is 404 Jeff. The exotic choice is 416 Taylor.

And have you shot a 416 Rigby/Rem out of an 8-9lb bolt action with a scope? Not everyone can handle it. Better to find out before laying out $10K. Without scope it's easier to tolerate the recoil so iron sights (ghost ring or express) might be a better choice than a scope, or in addition to a scope.

Don't spend money on fancy wood for a rifle that will be used for demanding hunts. In Africa the thorns and/or the truck rack will scratch it up; in Alaska the weather will ruin it even faster as you point out.

Barrel length ... get a 25 in 458 (that extra 50 fps helps that ctg). 24 or 23 in anything else. Barrel contour will affect balance. You don't want something too muzzle-heavy. I like short fat barrels, they tend to be very accurate.

Finally, you can buy someone else's custom rifle for 50c on the dollar. Most of them see almost no real use. You can get something with fancy wood and lots of engraving for $4K if you look around.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
24 inches.

Leupold 2.5-8x.

Yes.
All I could add is that George Hoffman thought 1:12" twist was better than 1:14" after his pioneering work in reviving the .416 Caliber.

IMHO, a No.4 sporter contour is as light as you should go, and a No.5 sporter contour is more than heavy enough, for a .416, whatever barrel length you choose.

A 21-3/4" barrel will turn your .416 Remington into a .416 Taylor equivalent on a long action.
Not bad.

Rip ...

I am going on my first Sa tour next year,yes i know its there and pg and so on. But i think to take my .404 with my since i shoot it good and it fits me and the Jeffery is a versatile round for many uses.

No comment on barrel length or bullet selection as they have pretty well been covered.

On glass for a DG rifle I have some general comments from my experience:

1. You do not need high magnification. 4 to 6 power at the top end is plenty. In fact my plains game rifle wears a Zeiss 1.5/6 Victory HT and I have managed to take 22 plains game species with that rifle and never wished for higher magnification.

2. For DG you need to be able to make a rapid shot. That requires finding the animal in the scope. You should check the exit pupil diameter of your scopes of interest as the larger the exit pupil diameter the easier it is to find a view through the scope. From just some casual checking it appears the larger the range of magnification (4x on my Zeiss, 6x on a Swaro Z6I, 8x on some of the current scopes) the smaller the exit pupil.

3. The scope eyepiece and front bell should be small enough to mount the scope low to the bore. The scope front bell must clear the barrel and the eyepiece must clear the bolt so these are the limits on how low the scope can be mounted. The reason for the low scope mount is to get a good consistent cheek weld so you do not need to search for the exit pupil in the scope. Your custom stock maker can also fit the stock to you to insure whatever scope you select will give you proper eye placement.

4. At my age I need all the help I can get to rapidly and precisely get on target. For me an illuminated retical is very useful even in daylight.

5. For DG many recommend a quick removable scope so you can use iron sights. In my seventies iron sights are not an option but I do carry a second pre-sighted scope just in case. I have found the Alaska Arms lever lock scope rings go back on with no change of zero but I assume there are other rings that would do the same.

Just some food for thought and enjoy your transition into DG hunting.

prefer the 23" barrels over 24".
Schmidt & Bender scopes

I have not hunted DG in Africa but I did prepare for a trip I was forced to cancel.

The choice come down to your budget and your passion.

I love blued steel and great wood. But I ended up buying a CZ550 Mag in 416 Rigby. Far more practical on several counts. It is real heart ache each time you ding a great stock. A classic blue and wood field rifle is the best but not with top end wood. JMHO.

I would love to hunt with a classic British or German wood steel rifle, like my Simson pre 1912 9.3X62 with octagon to round barrel and full length rib

In am not going to answer your question but rather just describe my 'to go' rifle.

Winchester Mod 70 Classic Super Express in 416 Rem Mag, manufactured in New Haven for what it is worth I have no idea of Winchester's manufacturing timeline and which ones are good and which ones bad.

When I bought the rifle it was fitted with a Leupold 1-4x scope without iron sights.
I had the 25" barrel shortened to 20,5" as there was a blanked off screw hole at 20,5". I don't like long barrels, these rifles are carried a lot, shot little and no animal on this earth can feel the difference a 100fps makes. It is 2019, I hunt on foot but one is still in and out of vehicles a lot every day.

I fitted Weaver type bases on the rifle, it usually carries a Trijicon 1-4x Accupoint scope with a green triangle. Alternative sighting is a Trijicon RMR with the 3 MOA dot. As a test I fired 5 shots with each of these sights (thus 10 total), interchanging optics between every shot on the range. The Accupoint gave a 2"group at 100m and the RMR a 2" group at 50m. The 100m group will shrink to 1,25" if the scope is not removed.

The gun is Cerakoted because it is a tool and has to work for me, beautiful blueing is awesome but if it rains I want to hunt and not worry about damaging some work of art.

I had the rifle re-bedded in glass before I fired a single shot, it is now going for 700 shots fired and the stock is holding up.
What I love the Winchester for is the slimness of the action, the CZ550 is too big for my small hands.

Caliber-wise it is a 416, Rigby, Remmie, Ruger who cares. Actually I dislike the Rigby slightly, I have loaded as many 416 Rigby cartridges as 416 Remmie cartridges as my wife shoots a Rigby, for me the Remmie loads easier.

And then the extraction/pressure 'problem' of the 416 Remington. I run max loads in my gun, 400gr at 2300fps out of that short tube - in a 6 shot gunfight with a buffalo in a measured 48 degrees Celcius in the shade it ran sweetly. Naturally I can't vouch for every rifle made in 416 Rem Mag, in our shooting association there is a good amount of 416 Remmies and they run our courses smoothly. Write something once in a gun magazine and it is gospel.

Look in to black nitride finish. It is a surface hardening process and far better then cerakote for harsh environments. Block uses this type of finish.

If you are considering a illuminated reticle, I would recommend looking at a Leopold VXR 2-7x33 firedot. Lighter weight then european scopes so less inertia stress on scope and mounts. I have one on my 375 Ruger and find it to be surprisingly good glass for the money.

Agreed. I live in Arizona and shot 400 rounds of full power 416 rem mag one summer preparing for a hunt and never had a problem. Pure fiction and a great round. It’s way hotter then most places in Phoenix Arizona in the summer and was much cooler in Mozambique. I have a safari express in that caliber and is the most accurate big bore I have.

quote:

Originally posted by Balule:
In am not going to answer your question but rather just describe my 'to go' rifle.

Winchester Mod 70 Classic Super Express in 416 Rem Mag, manufactured in New Haven for what it is worth I have no idea of Winchester's manufacturing timeline and which ones are good and which ones bad.

When I bought the rifle it was fitted with a Leupold 1-4x scope without iron sights.
I had the 25" barrel shortened to 20,5" as there was a blanked off screw hole at 20,5". I don't like long barrels, these rifles are carried a lot, shot little and no animal on this earth can feel the difference a 100fps makes. It is 2019, I hunt on foot but one is still in and out of vehicles a lot every day.

I fitted Weaver type bases on the rifle, it usually carries a Trijicon 1-4x Accupoint scope with a green triangle. Alternative sighting is a Trijicon RMR with the 3 MOA dot. As a test I fired 5 shots with each of these sights (thus 10 total), interchanging optics between every shot on the range. The Accupoint gave a 2"group at 100m and the RMR a 2" group at 50m. The 100m group will shrink to 1,25" if the scope is not removed.

The gun is Cerakoted because it is a tool and has to work for me, beautiful blueing is awesome but if it rains I want to hunt and not worry about damaging some work of art.

I had the rifle re-bedded in glass before I fired a single shot, it is now going for 700 shots fired and the stock is holding up.
What I love the Winchester for is the slimness of the action, the CZ550 is too big for my small hands.

Caliber-wise it is a 416, Rigby, Remmie, Ruger who cares. Actually I dislike the Rigby slightly, I have loaded as many 416 Rigby cartridges as 416 Remmie cartridges as my wife shoots a Rigby, for me the Remmie loads easier.

And then the extraction/pressure 'problem' of the 416 Remington. I run max loads in my gun, 400gr at 2300fps out of that short tube - in a 6 shot gunfight with a buffalo in a measured 48 degrees Celcius in the shade it ran sweetly. Naturally I can't vouch for every rifle made in 416 Rem Mag, in our shooting association there is a good amount of 416 Remmies and they run our courses smoothly. Write something once in a gun magazine and it is gospel.