quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The whole idea of "donated" hunts is an abomination on the whole industry.

No outfitter likes to "donate" anything, but SCI blackmails them into it.

Then they sell these same hunts in direct competition to the hunts the outfitters sell.

People who buy these "donated" hunts think they are getting a bargain, and at the same time giving to the good cause of conservation.

Nothing is further from the truth!

As we have seen here on numerous occassions, none of the staunch SCI supporters have been able to show us much in the way of where all these millions are spent.

We are still waiting to see what SCI actually does for conservation in Africa!

You are assuming that outfitters care nothing for contributing real money to conservation and that assumption is incorrect.

As for SCI and conservation - at the convention all of the govt game depts of the various major African countries were represented and no doubt wined and dined by SCI. I sure wish my country's government would send some game delegates so they could see how real conservation is put into action... at an international hunting convention, sponsored by the members of a hunting club (outfitters included). If my donation dollars are spent on such initiatives (drawing these people together to help maintain hunting abilities) - even if it is mainly African... I am OK with that!!

So according to you outfitters just "up and donate" - no strings attached?

Someone around here is either naive, brainwashed or a member of the gang.

" ...govt game depts of the various major African countries were represented..."

I wonder what really drew them to the show?!

Sorry that this thread has been hijacked..
But - what is a better way for SCI to raise money? Increase dues? Increase the number of shows held? Get rid of the paid staff and be more like DSC or Houston Safari Club? We all seem to know what we do not like - what would actually please everyone?

They could perhaps start by selling that ludicrous monument to bad taste they call a HQ and also start running the organisation as a hunting club for the benefit of the members and/or an organisation dedicated to conservation for the hunters of the future instead of a money making corporation that also likes to honour the BoD with silly titles, trophies and awards.

Dropping the extortion..... oops, sorry. I meant to say donation system might also do them a bit of good when it comes to the popularity stakes with those in the trade.

Shit, I thought you were gone.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Shit, I thought you were gone.

Retirement's a wonderful thing but it doesn't mean I have to stop knocking SCI when the need arises!

Want more good advice? RESEARCH BEFORE YOU BUY ! Cheap auction deals often result in this sort of mess. Good operators always give the same top service to auction hunt buyers- but shoddy operators usually give you the back of the line treatment as this guy found out late.

Your experience sounds highly unlikely given my experience with Shingani Safaris. I have personally been hunting with Riaan for 10 years and have had nothing but an exceptional experience.

In fact I think so highly of him and his PHs that I have sent dozens of my personal friends to hunt with him in both Zimbabwe and South Africa. All of them, myself included, have always had a professionally conducted hunts and have never left feeling shorted. In fact several of my friends and I are returning this year for our fourth safari with Shingani.

My trophies have always reached me in a timely fashion and I have been more than satisfied with their condition. In fact the last two safaris I used Riaans own processing and shipping. The trophies look great.

I don't know if you just had a bad experience or whom is to blame. But I have the upmost respect for Shingani Safaris. I have recommended them to close to 100 hunters over the years and will continue to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Wileybuster:
Your experience sounds highly unlikely given my experience with Shingani Safaris. I have personally been hunting with Riaan for 10 years and have had nothing but an exceptional experience.

In fact I think so highly of him and his PHs that I have sent dozens of my personal friends to hunt with him in both Zimbabwe and South Africa. All of them, myself included, have always had a professionally conducted hunts and have never left feeling shorted. In fact several of my friends and I are returning this year for our fourth safari with Shingani.

My trophies have always reached me in a timely fashion and I have been more than satisfied with their condition. In fact the last two safaris I used Riaans own processing and shipping. The trophies look great.

I don't know if you just had a bad experience or whom is to blame. But I have the upmost respect for Shingani Safaris. I have recommended them to close to 100 hunters over the years and will continue to do so.

First post.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Wileybuster:
Your experience sounds highly unlikely given my experience with Shingani Safaris. I have personally been hunting with Riaan for 10 years and have had nothing but an exceptional experience.

In fact I think so highly of him and his PHs that I have sent dozens of my personal friends to hunt with him in both Zimbabwe and South Africa. All of them, myself included, have always had a professionally conducted hunts and have never left feeling shorted. In fact several of my friends and I are returning this year for our fourth safari with Shingani.

My trophies have always reached me in a timely fashion and I have been more than satisfied with their condition. In fact the last two safaris I used Riaans own processing and shipping. The trophies look great.

I don't know if you just had a bad experience or whom is to blame. But I have the upmost respect for Shingani Safaris. I have recommended them to close to 100 hunters over the years and will continue to do so.

First post.

Yup, a little over the top and no location.

just for the record, my buffalo skull from a hunt with Martin Pieters in Oct 2010 arrived in the US in April 2011. the BS about trophies taking 1 1/2 years to get here from Zim is just that- BS-. depends who you hunt with!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by JBoutfishn:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Wileybuster:
Your experience sounds highly unlikely given my experience with Shingani Safaris. I have personally been hunting with Riaan for 10 years and have had nothing but an exceptional experience.

In fact I think so highly of him and his PHs that I have sent dozens of my personal friends to hunt with him in both Zimbabwe and South Africa. All of them, myself included, have always had a professionally conducted hunts and have never left feeling shorted. In fact several of my friends and I are returning this year for our fourth safari with Shingani.

My trophies have always reached me in a timely fashion and I have been more than satisfied with their condition. In fact the last two safaris I used Riaans own processing and shipping. The trophies look great.

I don't know if you just had a bad experience or whom is to blame. But I have the upmost respect for Shingani Safaris. I have recommended them to close to 100 hunters over the years and will continue to do so.

First post.

Yup, a little over the top and no location.

+2

Yup, Wileybuster's post lacks credibility for a lot of reasons.

I am shocked that no one is questioning whether this hunt was legal or not. Given the area and apparent South African involvement, i am guessing it is not legal.

All I can say is (a) book with a very reputable booking agent who personally knows the outfitter (like Atcheson's), or (b) ask for and check at least five references.

quote:

Originally posted by Wileybuster:
Your experience sounds highly unlikely given my experience with Shingani Safaris. I have personally been hunting with Riaan for 10 years and have had nothing but an exceptional experience.

In fact I think so highly of him and his PHs that I have sent dozens of my personal friends to hunt with him in both Zimbabwe and South Africa. All of them, myself included, have always had a professionally conducted hunts and have never left feeling shorted. In fact several of my friends and I are returning this year for our fourth safari with Shingani.

My trophies have always reached me in a timely fashion and I have been more than satisfied with their condition. In fact the last two safaris I used Riaans own processing and shipping. The trophies look great.

I don't know if you just had a bad experience or whom is to blame. But I have the upmost respect for Shingani Safaris. I have recommended them to close to 100 hunters over the years and will continue to do so.

Welcome to AR, Mrs. Vosloo. Very glad you can join the board. Would you please pass along a message to Mr. Vosloo? Who was the PH, and does he have a copy of the TR-2 he can send to the hunter? I am sure a scan and email would be fine.

No rush to judgemnt here. It would be good to know under whose license this hunt was taken, was Parks paid the trophy fee, and what it takes to get these trophies released form the "taxidermist"?

If you could please provide that information, I am sure it will go a long ways here.

Thank you,

Hey Jack, if you get these answers please let me know! I sure can't seem to get any truthful answers from Riaan!

to expand on my earlier post- if an outfitter/PH is taking 1 1/2 years to get "raw" non CITES trophies out of Zim, something is DEFINITELY wrong. either the guy doesn't know the local procedures( and if he is a "local" guy he should) or he hasn't paid Parks the money for export permits( or never had the proper paperwork to begin with). good luck, Thomas,- you are going to need it!

Hi Shakari, just about to download your book onto the Kindle though I´m far too old, should be a good read. Buying a hunt at an auction in SCI is in my opinion a mugs game, my PH mate called me three years ago from an auction with an ele hunt in Moz, I might get it for $30k he said. I bid, I won, sure enough, no cites permit for the ivory which SCI said was 100% gteed. Luckily managed to sell the hunt to a guy in SA who I presume could "get" the ivory home. Stay away, best, Mike

I've been talking with a client from France about a cougar hunt here next winter.
Shingani's name came up and he is having the same problem as I am. He hunted November 2010 and no trophies! He is heading over there soon to personally try to get some answers!
He said there are 13 hunters from France and 2 from Belgium helping to pay his airfare so he can try to get their trophies shipped!
Seems my friend and I are not the only ones!

Wileybuster?

Jdollar, 1 1/2 years to get out of Zimbabwe, it's been 1 1/2 years and they haven't even made it out of the hunting camp!

If they would just get delivered to the taxidermist for dip and pack, I would have a glimmer of hope!

forget it- you have been screwed, blue, and tattoed by another carpetbagger. 8 years ago during the height of the farm invasions i got 4 finished trophies out of Zim( Matebeleland Taxidermy in Bulawayo) that were taken on a farm( Dollar Block) in Matebeleland where we had an armed confrontation with "war vets"( now that was an interesting situation). if Riaan can't get stuff from Crooks Corner onward in over a year- the guy has no clue what's happening or he is a crook himself. NO other conclusion makes sense.

Perhaps he sold them and/or never paid the government.

Yep I had trophies recovered from a farm that had a "warvet" invasion when I was hunting there, out quicker than that.

But for me personally I don't see why clients don't book DIRECT with Zimbabwe outfitters. It is getting tired seeing people complain about having problems with crooked South African outfitters hunting illegally. Every man and his dog is doing it from South Africa, except now it is impacting on clients who have their hunts stuffed up or never get their illegally shot trophies. And that IS the answer, the animals WERE ILLEGALLY HUNTED.

So much easier just to book with the Zimbabwean outfitters in the first place.

JMO.


PS BTW that warvet invaded farm. Not long after the illegal farm invasion and takeover, there were South African "outfitters" hunting illegally and taking clients there. Including people from right here on AR ... back in 2002 and since .... Of course they should never get their trophies out having hunted them illegally and knowingly. (Not related to the opening posts of this thread)

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:



So according to you outfitters just "up and donate" - no strings attached?

Well I am telling you they have a choice, either donate product or pay more or their (our) booths. I dont care if you believe me or not - it is the truth. SCI does encourage donations to raise funds that is true too.

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Taxidermy:
Jdollar, 1 1/2 years to get out of Zimbabwe, it's been 1 1/2 years and they haven't even made it out of the hunting camp!

If they would just get delivered to the taxidermist for dip and pack, I would have a glimmer of hope!

Forget it mate. Salted skins and skulls will perish if not kept in dry storage and unlike the Zim boys I doubt this circus act have the facility or indeed the insecticides required to treat your trophies over time.

I always shake my head when I hear that some unfortunate books a hunt in Zimbabwe with a South African in America.

quote:

either donate product or pay more or their (our) booths

In a nutshell ......you just couldn't have been more truthful!
Wouldn't that be bordering on blackmail?

And, Matt, its not just a question of paying the full price or more for a booth it also has to do with the location of the booth....the more you donate the closer your booth gets to the elite Inner Circle and the big spenders of the industry.

In reality by sucking up to the hierarchy to win recognition in this manner does not really make you (generic) a top outfitter......just a question of money, which is what SCI is mostly interested in obtaining, one way or another.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

either donate product or pay more or their (our) booths

In a nutshell ......you just couldn't have been more truthful!
Wouldn't that be bordering on blackmail?
i
And, Matt, its not just a question of paying the full price or more for a booth it also has to do with the location of the booth....the more you donate the closer your booth gets to the elite Inner Circle and the big spenders of the industry.
Ok let me put it simpler for you- you get a dis punt o
In reality by sucking up to the hierarchy to win recognition in this manner does not really make you (generic) a top outfitter......just a question of money, which is what SCI is mostly interested in obtaining, one way or another.

ok, let me make it simpler for you, you get a discount if you donate! No big deal. Blackmail? Yep sure, 1200 exhibitors allow themselves to be blackmailed by a hunting club!! Seriously?

Sucking-up to get better placement? That is pure bullshit!

We'll I know I will more than likely get roasted for this being my first post on this forum....but I have to chime in for my personal experience with Riaan and shingani safaris.I have been on here before looking up info on African hunts,ph's and areas of concern and know how important it is to do research before booking a safari.I have been on quite forums doing research,but don't post to much myself.
Back in 2005 I bought a hunt at our local SCI chapter dinner along with a buddy for a SA safari and the PH was Riaan Vosloo and shingani safaris.I will say that we had a really great experience that year in SA as it was a first for us both.
Now,since 2005 we have been to SA and Zim with Riaan and Shingani safaris four times and have had a great experience each time we have been there.Zim can be a little rough,but thats the kind of hunting I like and will remember the most.
I would like to say that I don't know what all happened on,during and after this hunt,and im not going to pick a side,im just wanted to tell you my experience.Bad trips will happen to every PH,it just sucks when its your hunt.It could be a multitude of things that could go wrong,I could tell you a few myself.
Just do your homework,I've had quite a few of my personal friends hunt with Shingani and included hunts with Jimmy Houston,Pete Shepley from PSE and filmed quite a few shows for TV.
Also,keep in mind Riaans dad has guided in Zim for two decades,so to say he's another SA crook guiding in Zim....is Zebra crap!His dad is one hell of a PH and one hell of a tough old "Dugga Boy".
And Thomas ..I hope this all gets worked out for ya!
....Calidblhntr

Has Riaan ever personally guided you as a PH in Zimbabwe during your last 4 trips here since 2005? Which areas did you hunt?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

either donate product or pay more or their (our) booths

In a nutshell ......you just couldn't have been more truthful!
Wouldn't that be bordering on blackmail?

And, Matt, its not just a question of paying the full price or more for a booth it also has to do with the location of the booth....the more you donate the closer your booth gets to the elite Inner Circle and the big spenders of the industry.

In reality by sucking up to the hierarchy to win recognition in this manner does not really make you (generic) a top outfitter......just a question of money, which is what SCI is mostly interested in obtaining, one way or another.

I really don't understand why this continues to be an issue. Very simply, the outfitters that participate in the shows are electing to participate in a type of very specifically focused advertising. They are displaying their wares in front of an audience that is specifically present to discuss the possibility of booking a hunting trip. Talk about targeted advertising, no pun intended.

Paying for a booth or donating a hunt is the cost of "advertising" at that venue. It costs SCI or DSC or whomever the promoter is to rent the venue in order for the outfitter to have a place to exhibit their booth. The space isn't free to SCI or DSC. For some reason, this seems to be lost on the folks who continue to bash the shows. The idea is to bring clients and outfitters together for mutually beneficial purposes.

Paying more for the booth or donating a more expensive hunt in order to get a better booth placement is exactly the same as paying more for an advertisement in a magazine in order to get a 1) larger advertisement, 2) full color advertisement, 3) more favorable placement of advertisement in the magazine or 4) all of the above.

Is that really so hard to understand? Obviously, the outfitters who participate in the shows must see some benefit in participating, otherwise they wouldn't be there. Do you think they would travel 1/2 way around the world to be "blackmailed" as you put it? Does anyone FORCE the outfitters to exhibit at the shows. Of course not. They participate because they have determined that there is an economic benefit to do so. If there is no economic benefit to exhibiting at the show for a particular outfitter, they should not choose to exhibit, assuming they make good business decisions.

I find this discussion very similar to the objections to advertising on the hunting shows. Without revenue from the advertisers, how does one expect the shows to continue. The airtime isn't free. The production isn't free. Do you expect the networks and all the people involved in producing a hunting show to donate their time and equipment for free so that the show can be aired for the free entertainment of the masses? Life just doesn't work that way. Likewise, the hunting conventions cost money to produce. The outfitters pay to participate in hopes that more revenue will be generated in terms of sales than the cost, thereby giving a positive return on investment which is referred to as a PROFIT! In return, the clients get the benefit of having a large number of outfitters concentrated in a relatively small area so that they can speak face to face and make apples to apples comparisons and hopefully book their next "hunt of a lifetime".

As someone who has owned and operated several businesses, it just doesn't seem that complicated to me.

Calidblhntr, glad you had good experiances with Riaan! My hunt in Zim. was definitly not! Right from the start nothing was as I was promised. I to like the tuffer hunts and prefer to rough it, I have no complains about the camp. One of my main complaints was the fact we paid for 1 on 1 hunts and after getting to camp we find out there are two other hunter along and we have to share a ph and hunt in patners. We also never got any explanation as to why we ended up in the area we did. Riaan made it very clear he wanted to get our buffalo killed and get back to SA! He was only in camp 2 days with his clients before he left. My other huge complaint is he left us with only 1 days supply of good water and we had 8 more days to hunt. I was so dehydrated on day 5, I didn't piss for 24 hours!
I did get lucky and take a great buffalo, but no one seems to know where it is! All I get is lies about it being delivered to the taxidermist only to find out months later it wasn't. After 17 months our buffalo are either still laying in the camp or long gone. There were three buffalo delivered last October that were said to be ours, but after the taxidermist compared photos it was determined that they were not. My guess is they were replacements that Riaan hoped to get to us and then blame someone else for the mix up!
I saved money for several years to be able to go on a buffalo hunt and feel cheated that I will never get my trophy!

If you read an earlier post by me you will see that my friend and I are not the only ones trying to get out stuff from Riaan after a hunt in Zim. 13 French hunters and 2 from Belgium are also upset. For quite a while i was scared to make waves as I figured if I did I surely would never get my buffalo. That is where the French guy I've talked to is. My friend is also being promised the world by Riaan and is holding off posting about his hunt in hopes that his buffalo will be sent. I'm thinking you will read his story in a couple of weeks!

If Riaan would man up and deliver my buffalo (if it still exists) I would be happy to get on here and let the world know.

I would also like to add that Riaan's dad was supposed to be the ph for my friend on this hunt, but he was no where around. Our hunt was suppoosed to be under him and in his hunting area. Maybe your hunts were a bit more legal and that's why you received your trophies???

I did see a photo of my buffalo and am told it is at Matabeland Taxidermy, but no paperwork. Documents were promised there last Tuesday, but to no suprise of mine were never delivered.

I too am always unhappy to read these kind of stories.

One thing though Thomas if it is only some paperwork on your buff and a week past due, I say that it is still ahead on Africa time. so that might still work out yet and you get your trophy.

In all of my hunts and fishing too I only a couple go bad. They could have been even worse is all I can say.

The hunts werent set up by me on both of those. One was so poorly done and staffed, and our chance of success so remote, and our aggravation so high, we called the plane back to pick us up on the third day, here in the US.

The other one was not as bad. Our outfitter company was great but their "guides" were bottom tier with repect to their so called guiding, and their personal habits both. Added to terrible weather, it really was not a good time or a good hunt.

I did buy two separate duck hunts donated to DU at a couple of different DU dinners. On both the guides never provided the hunts. They had the most excuses of all. Too many guys one day, no gas, truck broke, boat was stolen, blind burned down ...... it was comical really. Then I bid on and won another one from someone different in a different state with the same result ... except it got even better with 'Well you donated the money, so just go with that...". I said you did the same. Anyway it turned out that this happened to folks who had bought from them too.

It was not a lot of money, but it was the thought of the thing. I was just going to take some younger hunters and let them see what it is and enjoy what they could. I would have probably given them enought tip to make it worth it.

I did take the youth hunters but to something different. Which was a great time at a buddies of mine place. I was glad I did not go with the other guys.

Some years later the same guys called me as they wanted to run some day hunting on my leased land that I put together from a farmer friend and 3 of us. I asked if they remembered the last deal. Now they offerred it to me again LOL. I had to laugh - what were they thinking. I guess they thought they would take me hunting on my own place. Of course I would not do anything to do with them for any reason.

I later got to test what I really would do, as I was asked to help with the injured soldiers fishing by donating a fishing trip. When I put my new offshore boat up for taking those injured soldiers fishing, I put the charter on tops. As if my buds and I were on the boat for a tournament. Those guys were the best for my crews and I mean nice and mannerly and appreciative too. I knew what I was getting in for and that I would not receive any money for operating or fuel, bait, ice , foods, and crews. I just bit my lip a little bit and went all out for it .

So in the end of the day I learned early and without much costs or lost opportuunity to pick the PH, guide, outfitter, myself. And not to let little things mess up our time. A couple of times it has been a little bumpy, but truthfully they have all worked out great for me.

STOP DONATED HUNTS, THEY ARE KILLING THE INDUSTRY

quote:

Originally posted by spear:
STOP DONATED HUNTS, THEY ARE KILLING THE INDUSTRY

You dont think 'too many South African outfitters' might be 'killing' the industry??

Donated hunts help bring new hunters into the international marketplace!!

My opinion...there are such a things as a bad hunt, not getting the animals you want. However there shouldn't ever be a time of bad service! Which is exactly what happened here! If you lie to a Client about your services then you're toast in my book! Donated or not...no one made him donate! I know a couple of people who do not donate and pay the fees for the booth! If you offer it up and then back out bc you don't like what it sold for etc....then you're worthless!

In this business you're only as good as your last hunt! Let's just be honest!