The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Something I saw on another thread needs addressing! KRIEGHOFFGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Without highjacking the other thread tha above statement on missconceptions on Krieghoff needs some explaining! Disregarding the “GOT CHA” comment above, there was a real reason for the time it took to learn enough about the Krieghoff double rifle to actually understand them without having to spend $10,000 to play with one, and that is Krieghoff’s fault! When the K-guns first hit the market Krieghoff didn’t have people, in their booths, and in the advertising, that knew how the K-guns system worked! This was a big mistake, on their part, because of the system being so different from the classic actions of double rifles, this should have been their first order of business, to show exactly how the system worked, with skeletonized actions, and/or films in their booths at the shows to demonstrate how that thing worked. Unfortunately that was not the case! I was present at the first booth where K-guns were shown, and the staff in that booth only knew two things, one of which was incorrect, and that was that the rifle had to be manually cocked so was safe when fully loaded but not cocked! This misconception started the profusion of more misinformation, and led everyone to think the system worked like the Blaser double! That however we learned later was not the case. The Blaser has no facility to self cock the rifle, and must be re-cocked manually if the rifle is opened for any reason, while the K-gun, once cocked stays cocked if opened, and if fired, and opened to re-load, cocks it’s self on opening! This is a very large difference between the two rifles that it still seems some folks think are the same! Krieghoff made that mistake in the beginning, by not explaining the system better. They depended on only two things to sell their rifle, safe loaded carry, and a price that was under $10,000. Only one of those features was valid in regard to a double rifle that is designed for close-in self-defense, and that is price. Leaving the impression that the rifle had to be manually re-cocked after re-loading in the middle of a fight for your life is not something to engender confidence in a rifle, IMO! Even today the animation on their website of how the system works is so hard to find that it seems they still do not grasp the problem. The animation should be on their home page, and in all advertisements everywhere they are seen, so as to differentiate between the K-gun and the Blaser. It is no wonder we all jumped on the “thumbs down” wagon at first, myself included, with what Krieghoff told us up front which amounted to “It’s cheap & Safe to carry loaded” nothing more! ...............................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | ||
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I first saw and handled the Krieghof double at the SCI convention in Las Vegas several years ago. I was actually in the market for a large double at the time. The booth was staffed by the Head of Krieghof (at least that's how he identifyed himself to me). He was totally knowledgeable about the rifles operation and explained it in detail to me. I was quite taken with the rifle but still could not get around the having to push the button to initially cock it. As a result of this hangup I chose not to buy it and purchased a Merkel 470NE. I was never concerned about follow ups just the initial operation. It also required a harder push on the operator than I had supposed. Such was my impression at Las Vegas. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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I own a Krieghoff which I initially purchased because it fit my left-handed frame perfectly out of the box without having to go through the series of fittings my good double shotguns all required. It never occured to me not to like it because the cocking/safety routine was a tad different -- a few trips to the range is all it usually takes for me to get comfortable with something new -- just a little build-up of muscle memory. My Krieghoff didn't disappoint in that regard or any other for that matter. Bottom line is that I've owned it for some time now and wouldn't part with it -- I like the K-gun. But, each to his own -- purists are unlikely to favor the K-gun and I totally understand that, it's how I feel about my hunting handguns -- I don't like change with them. But, that's what makes the world turn. When you get bored with life, start hunting dangerous game with a handgun. | |||
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Mac, If you shoot one barrel, reload the empty and close the action are both firing pins cocked? If you shoot both barrels does the K have to be re-cocked manually after loading? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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OHGH there was never anything wrong with the K-guns, it is only that the complete story wasn’t told in the first months of it’s being on the market! If it had been completely explained none of the doubts of its usefulness on dangerous game would have happened. In the first several times I was approached about the K-guns by dealers, it was never explained that the rifle once made ready to fire and was opened, or fired and opened that the rifle re-cocked it’s self automatically. This failure on the part of booth staff, and dealers to make this clear was the direct cause of the misgivings most old time double rifle owners shied away from the rifle thinking that is was manually cocked, or it wouldn’t fire after opening. The staff should have known that the old time double rifle shooters would view this new thing with a “STAND OFF, WAIT AND SEE” attitude! We at DRSS only discovered the true facts of the K-gun operation when PWN375 bought one and brought it to a DRSS hunt/shoot get together down at Camp Cooley Ranch. After we were made aware of exactly how the system worked, several of the members bought one! However we had to rely on someone spending the funds to buy one to find what the Krieghoff staff and dealers should have told us to begin with! This was several years ago, and some today still are not aware of exactly how they work. I find today that most think the K-gun and the Blaser are the same, and they simply are not! I have absolutely nothing against Krieghoff double rifle other than they do not fit me well, and would require a re-stocking for me. Other than that I’d most likely have one myself, and if the rifle had been explained to me properly in the first place I would likely have bought one that day! ............................ ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Once the rifle is cocked, fire one or both barrels the rifle re-cocks it's self on opening! The Blaser s-2 doesn't re-cock when opened for any reason but if cocked and opened it automaticlly de-cocks the rifle, and must be manually re-cocked with the so-called safety lever (combi-cocking device)before it can be fired! IMO, this is a serious draw-back! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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After having taken the Blaser S2 to Mozambique for Buffalo, I can attest to the fact that it is not a drawback. I sorta like the fact that if I need to reload, i can and not put anyone in danger. As for speed, I might lose a half or more of a second but no more. A few sessions off the bench and you become accustomed to the safety and cocking actions of the S2. Plus, the accuracy of the S2 is off the charts, in a good way. At 50 yards, both barrels were shooting one hole groups, albeit not in the same place but within 1.25 inches. Come to find out, the barrels were out of spec and Blaser replaced the barrels. I have yet to take them to the range due to a motorcycle wreck that left me with 8 busted ribs, but when I am healed, I will definitely shoot this beast. The range target they sent back was 2 shots(1 out of each barrel) touching at 50 yards. | |||
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I have a Kreighoff in 470 NE and I love it. I bought it because it was cheap and I have more confidence in something that was made on a CNC machine in Germany than one of the second hand English doubles that I have easy access to here in the UK. The "safe carry" situation I also find gives me peace of mind when it is being carried by one of the trackers. I have shot three ele bulls with it, and whilst the first two were one shot brain kills the third was a charge situation where the "continued cocked" element came into its own. The first shot missed the brain, but stunned the bull. The second shot put it on its knees and the quick reload finished the job just as the bull started to rise. I had thankfully practiced quick reloading and follow up and the design of the cocking action are first class in my opinion. I initially had some concerns regarding the stiffness of the cocking action, but you just get used to it. | |||
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As with anything Krieghoff builds, their DRs are super tough, simple in design and very accurate. My only criticism is that in this day and age having no ejectors is a drawback - mostly for the purveyors of these fine rifles. Regarding the cocking slide - just like anything else; practice builds familiarity and that leads to proficiency. Kinda like learnig to ride a unicycle. It might seem odd and awkward at first, but given persistence and practice it become second nature in short order. Dieter: Put some damn'd ejectors on your rifles and watch your sales grow!!! JW | |||
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R.Jolly, I agree with everything you just posted! Many discount the fast re-charging of a double rifle in the middle of a charge as something that is impossible, and that a bolt action is the only answer when more than two shots are needed! This is the mind set of someone who has no real experience with handling a double rifle! The re-loading of a double rifle for shots three and four is not only possible, but is very fast and just as fast if not faster as a bolt rifle for four shots, with practice, and the use of certain types of shell holder placement! On the “SAFE CARRY” built into the K-doubles IMO it is just as safe as an unloaded double, as far as preventing accidental discharge, and safer than carrying an un-loaded double if you run into something suddenly that wants to bite or gore! The pressure to operate the combi-cocking lever is no draw back because this is done at the shooter’s waist as the rifle is brought up to face an on-coming target or to simply get ready for a shot after a stalk! And, as you found the rifle re-cocks it’s self just like any REAL dangerous game double rifle should after being fired and opened for a re-load. The K-rifle is ready to fire as soon as the rile is closed, nothing left to do but pull the triggers! This READY TO FIRE condition is the reason most makers of double rifle in dangerous game chamberings consider an AUTO SAFETY to be a safety hazard that is all to easy to forget in the heat of battle, and stealing valuable time in getting off that next shot! This is simply a “KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID!” way of setting up a rifle that is mostly designed for self-defense, leaving the system as simple as is possible, with little to forget at a critical time. The Krieghoff double rifle, once cocked, fired one or both barrels and opened for a re-loading of one or both barrels is re-cocked automatically, on opening, just like most other double rifles. The only way this doesn’t happen is if you MANUALLY de-cock the rifle with the combi-cocking lever, before opening, an action I see as never happening! The K-gun has proven it’s self in the field, and on the range as well as being a very well designed, and reliable weapon for standing off a serious charge of something that wants to do it’s owner harm! ............................................  ...................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I did not mean to imply there was anything at all wrong with the Kreighof, just that it was not for me because of the cocking requirement. I could have probably learned to use it as the pushing off of the safety on mounting the gun is, to me, an automatic action. It was just that the Kreighof's cocking lever was harder to push and I just did not feel there were enough additional points to justify buying. If my memeory serves while the gun recocks the hammers after it is opened to again make it 'safe' (which is the single reason for the rifle being different from others) it must actually be de-cocked and then the cocking lever must be pushed to again ready the rifle to fire. Since it did not fit me any better than the Merkel, the quality was not apparent to me to be any better than the Merkel,and it cost considerably more than the Merkel, I purchased the Merkel and was completely satisfied with it,so much that I later bought an 8x57r Merkel. SCI Life Member NRA Patron Life Member DRSS | |||
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Hey jeff, got my first one at age 12, I'm over 50 and still have one in the garage, I always enjoyed "freaking out" my sons friends with a quick spin around the driveway. Great fun! (If someone wants to send me a Kgun I could add that to my routine  )"The difference between adventure and disaster is preparation." "The problem with quoting info from the internet is that you can never be sure it is accurate" Abraham Lincoln | |||
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I agree with the comment made by Jeff Wemmer about putting ejectors on the Krieghoff double rifle. Krieghoff sales would definitely take an up turn if this feature was added. I would seriously consider purchasing a Krieghoff double if it had ejectors. It was a real turn off to me when I visited the Krieghoff booth in Dallas this year. When I asked the rep at the booth why they did not build a double rifle with ejectors, he told me "they would be just one more thing to break - the extractors were much more reliable". Needless to say, I was not impressed by the technical depth or operational insight of his answer. Mangwana | |||
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In my opinion, the Krieghoff might be more acceptable if, in addition to the cocking feature, it had a Greener safety. This would allow the gun to be carried in a cocked, but safe condition, if immediate action were called for. This would be the hammerless equivalent of the safety lock on a hammer gun, where the hammer is carried in a cocked position, but is locked by a sliding catch on the side of the action plate as seen on my Knubley duellers:  This is a Greener safety on my Greifelt drilling, which also features separate rifle barrel cocking by means of the lever seen next to the triggers. An even better solution to the Krieghoff cocking feature would be to use such a cocking lever, rather than a thumb actuated slide, and to place a safety in its usual position, on the tang of the action.  The force required to cock both barrels simultaneously using the thumb may be more than some shooters can manage without a struggle, and may be a hinderance to rapid use of the rifle in a tight situation. A cocking lever is easily manipulated by the left hand, and leaves the right hand in firing position. | |||
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Mr.Jolly,I think you know this already but others may not! The Krieghoff double rifle is not made on CNC machines anymore than most other double rifles made today! Individual parts have the "HOG WORK" done on those parts to get close to the finished part, in all makes. This is simply a cost cutting process that used be done by apprentices, and took too much time! The final fitting of the K-gun is exactly the same as it is for the top named makers! You can be assured that if the double rifles could be totally built on CNC machines Holland & Holland would certainly be doing it that way! The machine work done on the K-guns, and Merkels and such is limited to this primary shaping, as it is on all makes and in many cases rolled on engraving on the field grade rifles! The difference is in the wood, and hand finishing of all steel, and wood on the top of the line makers, plus the cost of owning the NAME engraved on the rifle! In practical terms, if the rifle fits you, and is accurate, and fires one barrel every time you pull the trigger, then there is little other than frill between any of them! Owners need not be ashamed of owning a Krieghoff, Merkel, Chapuis, or VC double rifle rather than one of the old names from the UK! When it comes down to stopping a charging Buffalo, lion, or Elephant they will all do the job if the shooter does his! I don’t own a K-gun, or a Chapuis, and the only name rifle I own today is a Westley Richards 500/450#1 express Box lock ejector double,made back in 1892. Of the other six doubles I own my GO TOO rifles are both Merkels! I have owned just about all the top names over the years, and in practical terms the Merkels will shoot and kill about as well as anything I’ve owned! I do agree with those who think Krieghoff needs to make ejectors available on their double rifle! Not for me, but to increase their sales considerably! I can live with or with out ejectors, but one thing I will not tolerate on a Dangerous game double rifle is an auto safety! Because of that opinion I was raked over the coals because I had not disengaged the AUTO feature on my Merkel 9.3X74R double rifle! The reason it was not done was for two reasons! #1 this was not my dangerous game rifle, but was a back up for my 470NE Merkel, and should have been disengaged. #2 reason was simply procrastination on my part, even though I wanted to, I didn’t because it was not my Dangerous rifle! None the less I got fried for not doing it! I have several double rifles and shotguns with auto safeties, and even single triggers, but none of them are chambered in dangerous game chamberings. If they were they would not have auto-safeties, or single triggers I assure you! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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As a PH hunting mainly elephant - I have aquired 3 DR's - a Krighoff 500x416 , a Blaser 500 and to avoid opening a can of worms another .500 from a custom gun maker - the latter having ejectors. All the arguments about safe not safe after ejecting - are quickly voided once you use either often - and in my mind the cocking mechanism is by far the best system for both client ( ask any PH the most dangerous thing in the bush and they will tell you a loaded weapon on " safe " behind them ) and PH , personaly I prefer the blaser back to safe method over the supposedly ready action of the Krighoff , but the Krighoff is by far the best DR , its like a Land Cruiser you know its not going to let you down - while when you climb in a Land Rover you are never sure when you are going to break down and have a long walk ahead of you. (a matter of when not if ) The Krighoff is the work horse of big game hunting - and mostly its deflectors who cite the cocking mechanism are trying to be pure-ists. In my mind , based on field experience the Krighoff is a under priced gun that will as they say be a legend in its time. | |||
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I think it is a good idea for people commenting on firearms to actually handle one first. If possible. And if they haven't, to say so.  The reason a lot of PHs might choose a Krieghof is fairly obvious other than the marketing teams efforts. 1. A PH will carry his rifle 98% of the time with out shooting it. 2. For dangerous game, a double rifle has certain advantages. 3. A double rifle will have both chambers loaded. Compared to a bolt action where the bolt can be cycled fairly quickly to chamber a round from the magazine. 4. So theoretcally the double rifle is relying a lot more on its "safety" if compared to a bolt action with a magazine loaded but nothing in the chamber. 5. Therefore a "de-cocker" might be considered more "safe" or reliable than a mere safety. JMOs. | |||
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I own a Krieghoff .470 NE and have had to reload during a charge. Ejectors would not have made the process any faster, but would have alerted the buff as to where I was. As it was the buff heard the PH rack his bolt and then found us and charged. No ejectors for me. I have a Chapuis in .416 Rigby with ejectors and I think it makes too much noise. I just got a Sabatti in 45-70 that I can afford to shoot a lot, no ejectors. The safety on the Krieghoff is maybe it's best feature, no chance of brush taking the safety off and later a twig or brush pulling the trigger. It has happened and some trackers have paid the price. I feel safe with my Krieghoff in an African or shoulder carry......Tom SCI lifer NRA Patron DRSS DSC | |||
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I just got back from Mozambique. Faced a wounded Buff @ 15 yds. I wish my krieghoff had ejectors! I still done a very fast reload without them and lived to talk about it.  | |||
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Gentlemen here is some of the text from page 16 of the Merkel double rifle manual, but is not unique to Merkel where double rifles used for hunting dangerous game is concerned!
No matter what safety you have if you don’t point the rife at anything you don’t want to shoot, then all the other safety issues are not a problem, if failure occurs nothing is lost but a round of ammo and a spoiled stalk! .........All this may be  to some here, but in matters of safety you can't beat tha sum-bitch too much!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Something I saw on another thread needs addressing! KRIEGHOFF
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