Only time will tell
But it will be bad if it does happen all I know is that 2 weeks ago they passed a law that no foreign person may own land in Namibia anymore.
The only foreign people who own land are the one who currently own land in Namibia but quess which farms they are probarly going to take over if it does become another Zim.

[ 10-08-2002, 19:35: Message edited by: Safari-Hunt ]

Yes, nothing like a gun to your head to make you a "willing seller". - Dan

That is just Africa and that too will come to pass, afterall its Namibias turn in the barrel..That's how its always been and will be in the future..First one country then another and the circle goes unbroken..Its progress they tell me....all one can do is hope and pray..but it's been going on like this since the 50's, started with Mau Mau, then Uhuru then the political changes which have been far more profound in their effect than the bush wars....

Very sad to read this.....but I am really not suprised....ANC, SWAPO, MPLA...and Mugabe, all are, in the core, hard-line Marxists...

What makes me really sick is why the so called international community always is dead-silent about atrocities against white people in Africa..

What is this....socialists who protect their own kind?

Why do corrupt despots like Mugabe and Nujoma get away with this..??

And the UN..? I bet it never will be on their agenda...

Ray,
I'm afraid I have to agree with you.
"Africa is for the Africans".
Destined to be a dust bowl.
Don't forget, when the Dutch landed in Cape Town 350 years ago, the inhabitants had no written language, no gun powder, ... not even the wheel.
Frightening thought.
Pessimistic? No sir, reality. Read the history of Africa.
Lochi.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The farms that were set aside (192) all belong to
people not resident in Namibia. The point that is being made, is that this land has to be used productively. Things are not as they are in Zimbabwe where there is a takeover and removal by force.

Willing buyer and willing seller.

This morning I received an Email from the outfitter I'm going hunting with next March. They agree that the proposed land take over involves only unproductive land that is foreign owned. There should be no problem with hunting there.

It hurts to see my country compared to Zimbabwe! There is simply no comparison between the two.

Our constitution make it impossible for the government to simply take over farms - they have to buy it.

And to be truthful, I have no problem with foreign owned, non-productive land being targeted for this. There are too many farms out there that is the private playground for rich foreigners. These people do not pay taxes in Namibia - They come over with their friends once or twice a year, shoot up the game and leave. They employ a minimum of people and contribute nothing to our country.

The foreign owned farms that does offer trophy hunting is no better. All the sales take place in Europe, fees are paid there and never make it to Namibia. This is equivalent to raping the land and I have no simpathy with these people.

There are a couple of foreign owners who are playing the game right - huge investment in developing and stocking the land, high employment on the land, etc. These people will not be hindered.

But, if you are using Namibia as your private playground.... watch out!!

We live in paradise here - come and see for yourselves.

Pieter

Gentlmen
I suspect that more then a few followers of Ian Smith were thinking that Mugabe and Company would not be so stupid as to turn Rhodedesia (sp) into Zimbawe!
The one possible upside of black rule is, considering the AIDS epidemic, the mismanagement of the economies, the appropriations of white holdings, the human over population of Africa will be dealt with.
This will leave more land for the critters.
Jim

Pieter,
The land I hunted on is indeed owned by a German. However to say that none of the money stays in Namibia is not true. The lodge employs 12 Namibians. My wife and I probably would never have gone to yuor beautiful country were it not for the outstanding hunting. Besides hunting we did a lot of touring and bought many things. We left money and so do many other foreign hunting tourists. We plan to go back next year and do the same thing.

Spoken like a true socialist. The fact that they are taking land by force of law doesn't make it right. Going along with it now for the supposed stupid reason that it is not productive will only make it that much easier for yours to be taken when it is not just productivity that is a criterion but color of ownership.

Enjoy it now, you are on the short list.

Mr. Stofberg,

You state that, "Our constitution make('s) it impossible for the gov't. to simply take over farms".

Didn't your constitution also limit your president to two terms in office? Isn't Sam Nujoma now in his third term with designs on a fourth?

I'm afraid that when you let Nujoma go for a 3rd. term, you were well on your way to creating another Robert Mugabe.

Best of luck to you and your fellow countrymen. I think you are going to need it.

Pieter,
I wish you guys luck too, I hope it doesn't turn into another Zim. I do question some of your statements though, let me ask you, Who is to determine what is "non-productive" land. What if they determine the business you are conducting on your land is "non-productive" in THEIR opinion. What happens then? Do you really think they will stop when they take over these few farms?

I have to agree with Pieter, some people use it as a play ground, the mighty Pound and doller makes it worth while for them. I just hope it does not go further and they start taking all the land.

What is wrong with using your lawfully purchased land as your playground?

Howard,

I believe the logic is that this land once belonged to the black Africans. That, combined with the socialist nature of African politics, and you get the limitation (eradication) of individual rights for the good of all. Not the same principles as are applied in the US. This type of socio-political thinking merely drags down the strong to the level of the weak. It does not utilize the power of the strongest to uplift those who are weaker.

Regards,

Terry

Howard,

You have a valid point.

Ladies and genltemen,
Yes Howard you're included, (smile)
My opinion is that the land issue has to be addressed at some point in time. This approach is a good idea in that, the land owner will be paid for his land as opposed to having it taken by force.

Right now, there is no reason to get upset.

How the goverment see it at the moment is the wealthy is buying up the land while the poor blacks have no land for them selfs, at first they want to take the land of the people who bring in the least for the country, they mostly don't farm and the goverment feels like they are living in wealth while the blacks don't have anything. Till the blacks have 80% of the farms this will go on

Is Namibia turning into another Zimbabwe?

My money says yes.

I don't think many Africans are able to understand these words: freedom of speech (that includes movies you find distasteful), private property rights, and capitalism.

I see little hope for Africa. Any part of it.

"We have a constitution..."

I think this should be compared to Mad Bob. Almost everything he is doing is technically illegal as well, and its not stopping him.
Just rough up and jail the judges for a while till they resign and put another illiterate bastard sycophant in their place.

And what Namibia is doing is picking on a very small minority - foreignors. If you let them get away with that, a larger minority will be next - all white farms. Protection of private property should always be a concern no matter who owns it.

And I can tell you - when the peasant farmers see all those thousands of hectares being used for animals (ie nyama they are not allowed to eat) they will consider your use of it as "non-productive".

Same story as Zimbabwe, just 5 years too early. Give South Africa 8 to 10 years if Mad Bob doesn't get a bullet and soon.

The first time I hunted in Zimbabwe, they were only taking farms that were owned by people who lived out of the country, everything was cool. When I hunted there this August, things had changed quite a bit.

When individual property rights are not respected in a country, and the excuse is a populist maneuver to help the "poor", it is the beginning of the end...

Go to Africa to hunt now... The chips are falling...

Antonio

About 10 yrs ago I got into a discussion with my old my old college roomie who has spent 32yrs with Dept of State- mostly as a diplomat but some as a spook. I asked him what was coming for Africa and his reply was pretty much what has happened. He said "Even old Burning Spear didn't make any permanent difference in Kenya. Tribalism will be the antithesis of progress . The USA could put it's entire GNP into sub saharan Africa for the next 20 years and it wouldn't make a drop in the bucket to the average black African. Africa will be an international joke for the forseable future. Pity the whites who love their countries."
The Pretoria Sunday paper after 9/11 was full of "Why the world hates the USA" and there was a big interview with Nelson himself basically saying"They deserved it."
There was talk of forcing white land owners to sell and lots of reference to AIDS if you read between the lines. The latter will be the most important demographically in the long run because a generation is now missing. Much like Great Britain after WW1 except this is both sexes missing. Lots of talk of the return of "TB" and other diseases that don't return in healthy populations. Lots of child rape-one source quoted 20,000 girls under age 7 in the last year (sex with a virgin cures AIDS).
Bad times coming for all but the most privileged and black.
I think Ray nailed it.

Sorry for the double.

[ 10-19-2002, 08:41: Message edited by: Dr. Duc ]

Guys

I want to bring something to your attention. We are all going on about land being taken, etc. Meantime there is a quiet colonisation of Africa taking place right under our noses and I sometimes wonder if I am the only one to realize this.

I have a hunting camp near a little one-horse town called Aranos. Another near a fair sized town called Otjiwarongo. Aranos has seven Chinese families living in it. Otjiwarongo's main street is one China shop after the other.

The Eastern mind is famous for looking 25, 50 even to a 100 years into the future. China recognizes that AIDS, famine, mismanagement, etc. is clearing fast numbers from the African population and they are subsidizing their people to leave China and settle anywhere in Africa. I would'nt be surprised if we start seeing Chinese in our governments.

I would prefer Africa just as it is - I have no desire to live under Chinese rule.

The biggest threat to future hunting in Africa does not come from gun control, land redistribution, etc. It comes from China!

Pieter

Pieter Stofberg

You have must see Oshakati, andy many other places they are popping all over the place, even in very remote places. I think everybody will be supprised at how many are here in Nambia