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I am in the process of developing a neutralization protocol for escaped dangerous or large game at various zoos. The animals in question are as follows: Lions Tigers Bears (oh my) Gorillas Elephants Rhinos Cape Buffalos Essentially I have to balance stopping power against public safety and the risk of over penetration. If anyone has any suggestions as to rifle/caliber/load selection it would assist in my pursuit. I�m particularly interested in proven game stopping loads that will not run the risk of exiting the animal and presenting a public hazard. I understand that different guns/loads/ calibers are or may be required for the different game in question. Typical distances would be no more that 50 yards. | ||
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.458 Win Mag. | |||
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Capture or equivalent dart loaded with appropriate volume of M99? Verewaaier. | |||
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Tried that...unfortunately in many cases the duration of the drug delivery to reation time is unacceptable and the cc's required is not really a possibility with most animals in question and the 11 or 13mm darts. | |||
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suggestions on loads? or bullet technology to limit over penetration or through and through shots? | |||
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I know here in Australia the Melbourne Zoo uses a Marlin lever in .444 Marlin calibre and use Remington 265g factory loads. I noticed when the Circus a few years back came to town a fellow watched over the big cats and elephants with a sxs 12g with solids and a S&W .38 suppose up close it might be ok for big cats with a quick second shot but for elephant, rhino, cape buffalo I would rather have something heavier however you state public safety and no penetration probably I would look at the following Bolt Action Winchester 70, or CZ .458Win,500g,Soft point .375H&H,300g, Soft point Lever Action Winchester 1895 .405Win,300g,soft point Marlin 1895 .450Mar,350g,soft point any of above with a Colt Python .357Mag revolver with heavy loads. Why don't you contact/email Zoo's around the world and see what they use? RLI | |||
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Zoovet You might want to check out this site http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=673200&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1 It is a test on .458 bullets. The Woodleigh 400 grn expands quite a bit so penetration is mininum for the caliber. Cheers, Andr� | |||
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I know that you wanted one gun and that is fine but if I was facing a charging Tiger, Gorilla, Buffalo etc. etc. I would want a stopper like a very expensive well made and well balanced double in 600 NE or 577 NE.  And if the zoo is paying If in a worse case senario with these animals you want a BIG gun. Cheers, Andr� | |||
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I'm just way curious...where might this protocol be established at? I've been part of some loose cattle round-ups inside city limits and involved in killing some vicious dogs that were killing other pets and attacking hobby livestock. That turned into a enough of a media storm and letters to the editor. I could only imagine the hew and cry of whacking a rhino in Kentucky Fried Chicken parking lot. | |||
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Geez, just throw a .45-70 round loaded with hard cast lead bullets. According to Garrett, that ought to be enough.  Otherwise, try a .375H&H with 300gr. Swift A-Frame @ 2550fps on the Lions, Tigers, Bears, and Gorillas, and a .458Win.Mag. with 500gr. solids on the others. George P.S. Does anyone remember the circus elephant that rampaged through a city in Hawaii? The cops were shooting at it with .30-30 lever-actions.  Do you think they might have been reading Garrett's web page and gotten carried away? | |||
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You are right a rampaging elephant or rhino needs a big hammer ,my previous post I mentioned a few rifles but I did not mentioned my favourite William Douglass .470 NE because Zoo staff might have about a hour training on rifle with a couple of rounds practice and then rifle locked away for a couple of years. I think the Zoo employee who gets in a panic when a lion escapes and finally locates the keys to the gun safe and then runs around looking for the lion loading the rifle as he goes trying to remember how the rifle works might be more dangerous then the lion ! and if the Zoo has several rifles to suit the size of game you can bet the wrong ammo will be grabbed in haste. What ever rifle is used the Zoo personnel should be trained on a very regular basis say a Safari every year hunting the same animals as in the Zoo this would be excellent training! RLI | |||
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Zoo Vet. The problem is the range of animals that your caliber bullet selection is required to work on. Solids are a problem from the over penetration standpoint. However It is not recoemended to use softs on Pachyderms. I think that given the choices I'd look at the .375H&H or a .458win using a quality expanding rounds such as the Swift A-frame or the Barnes X bullet. Keep in mind however that no matter what round you are using there is a chance of a pass through injuring or killing people. Keep in mind on a large Pachyderm you may well not get the neccesary penetration from any soft point on a brain shot. A premium expanding bullet will however give you good pentration on a behind the shouder shot. The problem is that it will not drop the elephant in it's tracks. Has anyone on theis site ever head shot an elephant with a 500gr X? I wonder if that wouldn't be the all around ticket as it is a monolithic and has many of the benefits of an expander with many of the traits of a solid. I'd have to do some field testing but my initial thoughts would lean towards a .458win in a 500GR x bullet as the all around solution you desire. Zoo Vet I've sent you a Private Message on your "My home page". | |||
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I think one thing that should probably be considered is that most zoos are already operating on a very tight budget. That pretty much rules out any of the NE cartridges or double guns. I know several of you dont care for the CZ 550 but we arent talking about a classic safari rifle here. I think a CZ in 458 Lott or even 375 would be ideal for their purposes. A premium soft point factory load would help negate the over penetration but they could still have solids asa a back up. With the 458 Lott they would also have the option of shooting 458 Win Mags. I believe my choice for that situation would be a CZ 550 American in 458 Lott with factory premium soft points lilke the Partition or TBBC. Mount a Leupold 2x7 in QD rings in case the optics need to be removed and they would be set. Cost would be relatively low and they would have a very reliable hard hitting rifle. | |||
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I would have to go with the 458 win mag in a bolt action rifle. (A CZ-550 would be a good choice, if it's going to stay as is right out of the box.) The people who are in charge of securing the loose animal should become familiar with the gun and practice often. A single caliber is probably the best bet because if an animal is eating the tourists, it would be quite easy to grab the wrong ammo for the gun during the chaos. I am curious to know, how often do animals get out of their cages? (I found the way I can get my tiger hunt! ) I would have thought a zoo would be interested in keeping the animal alive. Everyone I meet at the zoo seems to look down on hunting and strike me as the type who could never kill a living thing. Sevens | |||
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Blinkin' blankin' zoo beasts are gettin' out constantly. Here in SoCal we've got a couple o'simians that have made reg'lar careers out o'jumpin' the fense and wandrin' around among the visitors. Drives the management right bonkers, don'tcherknow, and doesn't do beans for the old reputation. T'be perfectly honest, I've got to think that part of the problem ZooVet has is that his shooters might be more than a bit short on suitable firearms trainin'. If yer goin't'hand some keeper-johnnie a .458 after a half dozen rounds at the range, 'drather head for the aquarium, by Jove, than hang around to watch the show. Now most folks who do any shootin' in America at all have shot a pump shotgun at some time in their lives. That tells me that what ZooVet might really need is a rebarreled Remington 7600 in 9.3x62! Mild recoil, sufficient power (Class I DGR) and somethin' familiar enough that anyone could use it. Y'd need to keep a couple of different magazines on hand, one with Nosler PT's for the soft-skinned game and one with solids for pachyderms. Cost would be low. Might even get a local smith to do the work at cost and give him a receipt for "charitable contribution" he could write off his taxes. Just a thought, what? | |||
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Wonder where there is a zoo that is going to finance and train a "swat team" for escaping critters?  The Detroit Zoo is so anti-hunting that they now euthanize surplus plains game type critters rather than sell them (at a profit) on the exotic game ranch market. I can also imagine the look on the local Police Chief's face when he gets told "hey, we got this plan in place in the event of a gorilla escape...the zoo's B'wana Don is on-call 24/7. He (or she) is going to handle it by dispatching the critter with his 436 Super Duper with special bullets. Call this number when something is on the loose. " Sorry, no disrespect intended. I just get a chuckle out of this. | |||
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I know this case very well and was in Hawaii speaking with a couple of the parties involved and I can give you some more information. Oddly this is EXACTLY the topic of the dinner discussion that started the pursuit for a better protocol. It was in Honolulu The elephant killed two people, it was finally killed by lethal injection. It was shot over 80 times, most with handguns, lever action rifles, a bolt action .308, a few shotgun rounds (00 and slugs). The deepest penetrator was the .308...some of the worst penetration was from the shotguns. Dr. Ben Okomoto the vet at the zoo did the the final on the elephant. Since that time the zoo there uses the following.. For elephant, rhino, hippo, african buffalo (which we don't have now): 458 magnum/500 gr. solid bullet Winchester Model 70 For lions, tigers, bears: 375 H&H magnum/300 gr Nosler partition bullet Winchester Model 70 As a "backup gun": Remington 870 pump with either: Sauvestre "Sledgehammer" slug or 000 buckshot Recommendations for the rifles: "Lyman's Guide to Big Game Rifles", and info from local safari hunters Both Winchester Model 70s are "pre '64" models and have been serviced by a factory certified gunsmith. The 375 has open sights, but the 458 still has a 4x scope. I guess I'm trying to find out if there are better loads or better technology and maybe something a little safer for the surrounding population. Some of the other technology being looked at are the following: Ruger 10/22 suppressed with a Vidar suppressor for very small game. Ruger 77/44 or a Marlin Camp Carbine in .45 caliber (both suppressed) for some larger canines and some of the less dangerous game. The most interesting item for larger game would be something along the lines of the Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf or the Leitner-Wise 15 .499. Now granted these are semi autos but one of the big problems when training is that people end up being afraid of the recoil...and can't hit a very large target with no pressure...the hope is to mitigate some of the recoil with the semi and still get a lot of energy to the target. I guess the real problem is most zoos don't run into this problem too often so it's not something prepared for a lot, but when the animals are out...it's a BIG problem. So by coming up with a good equipment list, loads, practice regimine and tactical awareness...the protocol can certainly help. Quote: | |||
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At some zoo's the vets and the handlers are often times called out to support the police in instances of dangerous game. Especially if it's an animal contol problem that is a bit exotic or beyond what the local animal control officer is into. Quote: | |||
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Zoovet, At one time I was the youngest member of the AAZPA. I was also at the Seattle zoo when their gorillas got out and have a good freind who was picked up by the dreaded "Cindy" at the Point Defiance zoo. (Cindy was a rogue elephant you may have heard about). I would suggest a semi custom rifle for you and your staff. Make it heavy enough so the recoil does not ruin you all. You wont have to carry it more than a few hundred feet so weight is not a problem. Also, fit it with a muzzle brake. This pretty well describes my CZ action heavy barrel 450 Dakota that AHR (Ed Plummer) put together for me. With a McMillan kevlar stock for a BRNO 602 it weighs 11 pounds with sling 3 X scope and ammo. (10 pounds without scope and rings). It is relatively easy to shoot even with 500 gr. bullets at 2450 fps. It is a pussy cat with 450 gr or 400 gr bullets. This is what I used in my 458 Test which is now posted on the Nickudu files. For your intended purpose, use the 450 gr. Kodiak for "low" penetration and a matching 450 gr solid (any make) for head shots on elephant or body shots on rhino. Those two bullets will do all you need. Other suggestion is a 416 Remington, made equally heavy. I dont have specific bullet recommendations but you could do alot worse than using Remington factory ammo with 400 gr Swift and matching Hornady FMJ. I know the late George Hoffman would agree!!!!!!!!! Important thing to remember is a heavy rifle wont scare the begesus out of you or your staff. I have used a suppressed Ruger 77/.22 LR made by AWC for many years and most of my staff never hear me use it. Beware richochet in your concrete pens however!!! (A high velocity 223 actually richochets less because the bullet splats on hard surfaces). Still very quiet with a sound supressor. Andy | |||
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I agree with Honolulu Zoo choice of Winchester's 70's in .458 and .375 but the 2 rugers you described are way too much underpowered. I would go to a lever action in one of the following .405Win, .444Mar, .450Mar for all the lesser game as they are quick to operate and hit hard at short range. The .22 LR in the Ruger richocets more than any other rifle so that would be no good in a crowded Zoo and I would rather have a Winchester 1895 in .405Win than a Ruger 77/44 because you could if needed take on one of the big five but not with a ruger 77/44. RLI | |||
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Put an add in the paper asking for DG hunters to come in and interview for the position. Tell them to bring pictures of their hunts, then go see their tropy room for a second interview. Hire 2 or 3 and schedule them on rotating weeks and give them a pager. No pay, as this is a volunteer position. You will have no trouble lining up participants. Let them keep the trophy, by the way, if they get to apply their trade.  | |||
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ZooVet, I've done some Internet searches about the imfamous elephant rampage in Honolulu. It took place on August 20, 1994. Most of us have seen the video of the cops shooting it with 30-30's and such. In fact, several animal rights anti/circus websites have the actual video available to watch. But from all accounts I've found it was not an elephant that escaped from the Honolulu Zoo. It was a circus elephant, named either Tyke or Janet, depending on which animal rights website account you read. And there are conflicting reports of the name of the circus involved; Great American Circus or Circus International. Was this elephant on loan to them from the from the Honolulu zoo? Since in one of your threads you said you know people involved in this specific incident and use the word "We" in describing the armament the Honolulu Zoo obtained because of that incident, perhaps you can clarify this for us. | |||
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Quote: I agree,100%, with Eric! You can have one person at the zoo who is trained by those volunteers, to handle a real quick response, the only one rifle will be needed, and the should be nothing bigger than a 375 H&H with 300 gr A-frames or better Nosler Partitions, because they usually don't OVER PENNETRATE, along with some Monolithic solids for the Elephant/Ryhno/Hippo! This training of the zoo person should include extensive practice at placeing a BRAIN SHOT properly from every angle, on the Elephant,and Hippo, because that is the only shot that can be reliad on to stop an elephant/hippo in it's tracks, and avoid it killing some one after being shot! The brain shot on a Ryno isn't an easy thing to accomplish, but solids should be placed in the shoulders. Cape Buffalo cna be handeled with the Nosler/A-squares, or the solids! A 12 ga shot gun with a rifled after market barrel to use SABOT slugs for the Gorilla, and cats. BUCKSHOT should be avoided, like the plague, at all costs, they will get somebody killed, either a visitor,by a flier, or the man shooting a lion or tiger, because it doesn't stop him! The rifle, and shotgun both should be equiped with a 1 power (no power) shotgun scope,with a bold reticle, so the shots can be made with both eyes open. The range is not going to be long. Dallas had a Gorilla get out a couple month ago, and he had to be killed, after hurting a child, by the police. Dallas police dept has a squad that is trained to take care of the zoo problems. Our own "NE 450 No2" who posts here was in charge of setting up this squad, and selecting arms for it! The volunteer system, however, would make very good sense, because of the built-in experience, and low cost, especially if the trophy was donated to the volunteer, there would be a waiting list to get on! I would definetly volunteer, and I have, both double rifles, and bolt guns, that are well suited to this operation, and I know how to use them. No zoo is going to have the money available to buy a double rifle, and spend the money needed to train zoo personel,in it's use, so why not use those who are already trained, and properly armed! | |||
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Quote: Hmmm. Which lying sack of shit do we know that has a .50 Beowulf?  George | |||
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I think the volunteers list is the greatest idea. I would be down at my local zoo to stop an animal before they could hang up the phone. letting the hunter keep the trophy would be all the pay needed. It's the only way we are going to get some species like gorilla and tiger. (I don't think I could work at a zoo now, all the animals would be mysteriously getting loose.  )I think a 4x scope is way too strong for a crowded zoo. I would go down to a 1x or irons if possible. The shots in a zoo are not going to be very far. Sevens | |||
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It was a circus animal, sorry if that wasn't clear. The issues at hand at the time were...the ploice rolled on the situation, and were not in a position to do much. They called the zoo...but at the time there wasn't a protocol or the equipment in place to do much of anything. In the end the elephant was wounded enough to finally administer the killing agent...and the amount needed was well beyond what any number of darts could do. IN rehashing the past over dinner with one of the local vets and Dr. Okimoto, the thought was to get a formalized protocol down, with equipment specs and proper loads. The last time that anyone revived the existing protocol was maybe 9 years ago, as it was being developed. My thought is that in 9 years firearms technology, bullet technology, must have changed in order to provide a better or safer solution. No if the answer is, what you have and what loads you are using are fine...then so be it, but I figured I should ask the experts who deal with type of game in a hunting situation...not quite the normal situation for a vet and a keepers. Quote: | |||
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Firearms are much more effective than drugs becuase of the following reasons: Delivery system: Even the best dart guns have a limited application in terms of drug cc's to targets, at most these systems will deliver 15-20cc's per shot...and considering the needed amount for a charging elephant or large dangerous game animal...5,10, 15 or more shots may be needed. Practice and trajectory: In testing and using various RDS, they exhibit a very bowed trajectory, and are not very easy to use, set up, fire multiple times, and fire accurately. Liability The issue is in many cases one or two shots may be all that you are going to get before the animal exits the safety perimiter. One shot with a dart where 5 or 6 may be needed or one shot with a bullet that can put it down in 1 shot... Drug and dart safety protocols There are substantial protocols for ensuring the safety of the people using the darts, setting them up, transporting them, etc. It would seem better to have people trained in the appropriate use of lethal force, doing just that...using lethal force...versus trying to manipulate darts and get close enough enough times for the right number of doses. End all would seem that if there is an elephant charging down your street would you rather have it put down quickly or hope that the drugs take effect and that all the loads have been deliverd? Again I'm dealing with a worst case situation that doesn't happen that often and just looking for suggetions. | |||
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" No zoo is going to have the money available to buy a double rifle, and spend the money needed to train zoo personel,in it's use, so why not use those who are already trained, and properly armed! " Oddly many zoo's get the equipment donated. As to the police departments, some have the expertise, some do not...and quite possibly the protocol will be ... get a police officer ro officers trained in taking dangerous game, and give them the equipment. Unfortunately...not all cites with zoo's are set up that way so the protocol must cover a couple different approaches. The other issue is reaction time...if it takes the police 10-15 minutes to respond to the call...maybe that's a little too long in cases where there is active agression against a patron or the chance of the animal escaping beyond the security perimeter. As to volunteers, I think in New Jersey that was tried at a private park and as part of a conservation effort against the local deer population...the liability, insurance costs, bad press, and ineffectiveness of the program sort of puts the volunteer program out of the equation for consideration. Also going back to reaction time...what if the volunteer or volunteers can't be reached? Good suggestions...just trying to get a larger picture... again might be added as an alternative to a protocol but not every zoo is going to have volunteer professional hunters. | |||
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I'm curious to know if your zoo staff could pull the trigger. It is easier said then done for some people. Even with a rampaging beast, there are a lot of people who would proabably let the beast go on its rampage than kill it. I would assume that the staff is anti-hunting and loves animals, hence why they are zookeepers. (Not to say hunters doen't love animals, we just have different ways of expressing it.) It may be a good idea to take the protocal staff out hunting a few times to see how they handle killing another living creature. It could be a problem if something was allowed to kill the visitors because the staff couldn't pull the trigger. Sevens | |||
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GeorgesS; Spoken like a true New Yorker! (like me) BTW, I liked your reference to "doing it". I finally went to Africa at age 63 and had a simply marvelous experience. (Your buff looks enormous. Mine was an estimated 1900 lbs and made the SCI book for horns, albeit 178 ranking (why not rank for weight too) in the 9th Ed) My PH said to me as I was getting on the plane to fly out of camp; " You'll always be able to say -I was there!". He was right. | |||
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" The amount of scoline needed to down a buffalo is a mere 1.1 cc of scoline. The incapicitation time is rapid and very effective." Do you have more information about the time to down with the scoline. I'm sort of surprised that an IM dose so small can take down an animal like that. What's the procedure for the culling, they dart the animal, it drops in what a few seconds? then if they kill it they does it with some form of euthanasia solution? | |||
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I wonder if that Scoline would be an answer to the potential for a problem in our town. We have a lot of live performance shows here. One show is a magic act that uses large tigers, lions and black bears on stage. These animals have no screen or barrier between them and the audience. Although I have not personally seen it happen, one of the tigers is locally notorius for occasionally "hosing down" tourists in the audience as he leaves the stage. Reportedly his favorite targets are women who are wearing lots of perfume - which may or may not be true - but it makes for good conversation in the coffee shop. At any rate, the people in the front rows are only a few feet away from the front of the stage. In an article in the local paper following the recent incident in Las Vegas our local magician claimed he carried a 38 cal. handgun to protect the people in case one of the cats decided to jump into the audience. Knowing that this fellow is not a shooter, many locals wonder which would be worse - a large tiger in the audience or a large tiger in the audience with the magician shooting his 38 at it. | |||
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George, I am surprised that it took this long for your alarm bells to start ringing! Your getting out of practice! Regards, Pete | |||
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Pete, I was leery right off the bat; the Beowulf reference and the misstated 'facts' were the real tip-off. George | |||
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George, I thought of *** ***** charading as a "zoo vet" too. I congratulate you. I think you nailed the POSeur troll. I will stay off the front row at the Branson tiger act. That magician ought to be restricted to one bullet for his 38, to be carried in his pocket, unloaded. And, that bullet should be used only on the magician's head. Pictures of Barney Fife/Don Knotts pulling rabbits out of a hat come to mind. | |||
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I'm not sure who you are talking about but if you think that I am some other poster from here, it's not true. I never misstated any facts, the elephant in question was never stated to be a zoo animal. The issue was the zoo vet Ben Okimoto was called out, and unfortunately didn't have the tools at his disposal. It's unfortunate that I've been given a lot of good information but some of the less trusting are going on some sort of witch hunt. If you would like I will PM any of you that need more information about what I am working on and you can call me at my office. I asked about the 50 caliber guns in that they seem to present a lot less recoil and they are realatively inexpensive. | |||
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Zoo Vet, Send me an email with your telephone number: www.kyakerab@hotmail.com | |||
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Somebody claiming to "use the zoo vet account" sent me the phone number and address of a gun shop in NE USA. Whatta joker! George called it first. I second the motion. All in favor say "aye." | |||
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