Am attempting to post the website below as I am curious as to what most of you think about TGTS's policies on "shootable" lions.

From their website:

Restrictions: Hunting of immature or female leopard and lion. Only male animals may be hunted. In the event that a female or immature leopard or lion is shot, be this deliberate or accidental, you will be required to pay double the published game fee. Under no circumstances will any such trophy be exported from Tanzania.
For more information, see Choosing the Right Lion.

http://www.legendaryadventures.com/LAI-hunting/files/lionarticle.pdf

If I've screwed up the website postings, just go to their website www.legendaryadventures.com and then click on ethics & awareness. You can find your way from there.

I would just like to get some opinions on this as it impacts some business I hope to have in the future.

Thanks,

Shannon
gotogirl3

Sounds good in theory, but I can see how a hunter on a once in lifetime hunt will feel sick having one of those lions pictured in his sights on the last day of his safari, and being unable to shoot.
Does anyone know what their actual success rates are?
-Oh yeah, can they really prevent you from exporting a legal, but immature animal?!?

gotogirl3,

Sounds good to me from the little I know about Lion hunting but i would be interested what Alf hs to say. I gather the idea is not to cause too much disruption of the prides by taking mature males which are living outside the pride structure. If this is good managment practice, I have no problem with it at all, in fact quite the opposite.

As to whether the company has the "right" to do it, if its highlighted up front like it appears to be, the hunter should be aware of the issue before he goes and its up to him or her to vote with hs cheque book as nobody is forcing them into booking with these people.

In the field, I would say it is down to the PH as to what is a shooter or not. If he makes a mistake, then the company carry's the can...

Regards,

Pete

The TGTS PH makes the determination as whether or not a particular lion is a shooter. The paying hunter does not. The hunters are made well aware of the policy before booking. I'll be going on one of their hunts next July. Before the hunt, I think I like the policy. Afterwards, well, we'll see!

As to shooting a female, that has nothing to do with policy, that is tanzania law...No females of any species are allowed shot as far as I know...If you shoot one, the Safari Company will be fined and the client may be also, depending on the results of the investigation..Most likely the PH will be held responsible.

I hunted with TGTS last year and personally took quite a thrashing on this forum over the lion policy.

As Spring says you know very clearly going in that you can only shoot the lion that fits the TGTS criterion. I had an opportunity to shoot 2 male lions with TGTS that would have been very acceptable most anywhere else but because I knew the policy and knew what I personally wanted it never crossed my mind to shoot these lions.

Is this a good hunt for the first time lion hunter since the success rate is 50-60%? I don't know the answer to that. I do know that if you shoot a lion with TGTS it is a trophy that you can cherish not only because of the trophy itself but because you where willing to wait and not shoot just any male lion.

TGTS has a conservation plan not only for its cats but its other game as well. Only so many of a species of antelope can be taken from one area and only so many from a particular valley, drainage or whatever. All this is above and beyond any Tanzanian govt. regs. When I was in Natron a very famous SA wildlife expert was there doing game surveys completely at TGTS's expense.

My only regret about TGTS is that as a retired guy I may never be able to afford another full blown safari with them.

Regards,

Mark

I am hunting with TGTS this September. I have heard George Hartley manager of TGTS speak on this subject. I have killed a great lion so if the standards are high so be it. I have also been on two safaris where I passed up shootable lion because they had hairdos like mine.I think if we are going to call ourselves conservationists then we are going to have to be ready for some disappointments if we don't see an MGM lion. I will post something after I get back from Kisigo(Kizigo)regarding their lion judging in the field.Please wish me luck.

In theory I think TGTS is trying to do what they believe will give their hunters the best lions for years to come. I do not believe in the real world it can be done. From the May 2004 issue of the "World Conservation Force Bulletin" Tanzania had the highest trophy trade from 1992 through 2002 and Tanzania has the highest volume of trophy lion exports by far. All of these lions cannot be of MGM quality that are being shot.

Tanzania trophy lion exports:

1992-202
1993-195
1994-282
1995-230
1996-298
1997-276
1998-264
1999-272
2000-316
2001-230
2002-226

Our group of bowhunters had 314 acres that we used to hunt. We made an agreement that only Pope and Young bucks would be taken. The theory worked great on our lease, but as soon as that buck "crossed the property line" he was shot by hunters from the adjoining land. A lion may not meet T.G.T.S. standards, but he still may get shot the next day on someone else's concession.

Kathi

kathi@wldtravel.com

Considering the territoriality of prides, and the size of Tanzanian concessions, I think that the chances of every lion spared being shot upon crossing the boundary is slim...
It might occur on occasion, but it isn't likely to be as prevalent as a 314 acre lease in a high hunter density area.

As an example, the Selous is approximately 19,300 square miles. The Selous is divided into the following hunting blocks,(I may have missed one or two), MK1,Y1,LA1,M1,R1,R2,R3,R4,U4,RU1,M2,K4,U2,MS1,LL3,K1,K2,
K5,U1,U3,K3,MH1,MA1,LL2,L1,IH1,LU4,ML1,LU3,LU5,MB3,MT1,
MJ1,MT2,LU1,LU2,LU6,LU7,LU8,MB2,N1,N2

42 hunting blocks divided into 19,300 square miles
averages out to about 459 square miles per block
or 18 miles by 25 miles. IMO I believe a lion
will and does easily wander from one hunting
block to another due to territory overlaps.

I think T.G.T.S. has the right idea but unless
everyone is on the same page it will not work.
Once again, this is just my opinion.

Kathi

kathi@wldtravel.com

Tanzania has a legal requirement that no females of any species be shot (excepting crocodile for the obvious reason). They also have strict size minimums (elephants have size AND weight minimums) on many species including cats. Any animal under that size will not be issued with an export licence. PHs may also be fined and otherwise penalised in many circumstances.



As to not shooting Lions that hold a pride, we try to adopt the same policy as much as possible. But to be completely honest no-one can ever be 100% sure whether any lone mature Lion is holding a pride or not. It's simply impossible. There is always a chance that a Lion on his own just might have got tired of the company of his ladies and wandered off on his own for a few days of peace & quiet.



The area we use (most) in the Selous is 2250 square kilometres ( I guess about average) with 2 camps and as we have permenant water hold good game and Lion populations throught the season. The size of the areas make it impossible for the staff of any hunting area to always remain totally in touch with every single Lion in the block all the time. Pride dynamics can change very quickly.



TGTS are an excellent company and I am not criticising them in any way, but (IMO) I don't believe it is possible for anyone in Tanzania (or any other True Wilderness Area) to honestly say that they never shoot a Lion that's holding a pride.......only that they do their very best not to do so.

Kathi,

I understand exactly what you are saying and that is one of the reasons TGTS acquired Wengert/Windrose. They had several adjacent concessions and of course TGTS wanted the coveted Natron area. The merger gave TGTS in Muhesi/Kisigo 4 areas making one huge concession. The same applies in the Moyowosi area.

I think their program has to be working. I bet you would find that a lot of safari companies throughout southern Africa don't have success rates of 50%-60% on just male lions let alone ones that rival that monster your husband shot. A 1 in 2 chance of a trophy of a lifetime sounds pretty good to me.

Regards,

Mark

TGTS (and now Wengert) are the only company i know that has invested lot's (and I mean looot's) of money into research and management of their animal populations within their blocks. They have realised that lion hunting is going to be more and more difficult in the years to come and a high emphasis has been put on the study of pride dynamics within their blocks. Their strategy of allowing only a very specific "kind" of male lion to be harvested is second to none in Africa today.

Their Ph's risk their jobs if they allow a client to shoot "the wrong" lion! That is how serious they are about their management strategy.

TGTS has been around for a long time and I seriously doubt that they claim to "NEVER" shoot a male lion that is part of a pride. However, they will try not to even if that means observing a particular male for several days before deciding to hunt it. Now before you all laugh at my last statement, it is quite feasable when baiting to know whether or not a particular male is with females or not. If there is a female or young lion track next to a big males' at a bait, then you abandon that bait!

Every lion sighting, male or female, is recorded in detail throughout 12 months of a year - even off-season anti-poaching patrols - and these details (inc GPS positions and photographs showing distinctive features of each) are then plotted into a GIS mapping system. If I am correct, statistics over the last 3-4 years have been plotted. With the help of leading lion conservationists and the vast knowledge of their 13 + PH's who between them will have a combined knowledge of TGTS hunting blocks of over 40 years, they are able to determine fairly well the number of prides and their distribution within their areas! This collective information was used in determining their quota management strategies and in determining which lions "qualify" to be harvested.

IMO, outfitters that continously quote "success rates" will one day come to regret it. There are a number of outfitters/agents that will quite easily quote success rates of 80% plus for lion and they have the "photos" or statistics to prove their claims. The difference is in the trophy itself! One can shoot 3-5 year old males in Tanzania and achieve 80% success for the next 10 years. But you cannot compare a male lion trophy of that age with one of say a 7-10 year old male! Like good french wines lions get better with age

Not all, but some of the TGTS/Wengert areas border with blocks from outfitters who share a similar strategy on lion hunting. By no means does this ensure no mistakes are made or that no males part of a pride are shot but it does reduce the chances substantially.

The bottom line is that hunting lion with TGT or Wengert is only going to get better. It won't get any cheaper though.