Brett,

This just re-enforces what I have heard

That he only films buffalo that lie in the open after he wounds them.

Those that go into thick bush apparently he drives in the back of a truck to kill.

Those do not get videod apparently.

A wounded lion would find the thickest bush around, and wait for you.

I thought it is really interesting that Sulivan does not "let a lion choose how to die"

quote:

Originally posted by RichP470:
I am scheduled for a lion hunt in Bubye in 13 with Brent Hein. From what I have seen and heard it is a sure thing on a big cat as they have an over abundance of lions. The buffalo/plains game hunting is supposed to be over the top from many of the PH's that I have spoken with.

I was on 2 lion safaris last year. The first was in the Save, where we had cat activity and with the right PH you should get a cat. Unfortunately I was with a very incompetent PH, Terry Anders on Savuli and came home empty handed. I believe he failed on 2 additional hunts for lions after me.

With a burning desire to get a cat, I took off to W Tanzania with Danny McCallum and hunted with Mike Fell. A truly different experience with a great PH in a truly wild area. PH's were/are very nervous with the new laws/fines in place in TZ. The benefit is there is a lot of additional game and I was able to purchase an additional license and take 5 buffalo along with a bunch of plains game I had not hunted before. I believe there were 15+ 21 day hunters with McCallum this year and only 1 client shot a lion. I think the odds in TZ are against you.

Would I hunt TZ again? Yes with a very low daily rate and the difference made up in a lion trophy fee. From what I have heard, success rates on lion were down significantly in Tanzania.

That is why I am off to Bubye

Rich has cleared that up perfectly! I do not know what MS's areas are like but I do know that in the BVC you will definately have a chance at a monster Lion, as well as an array of PG!! That concession has been nurtured into one of Zimbabwe's top areas.. The decision for me would be a simple one...good luck

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This just re-enforces what I have heard
That he only films buffalo that lie in the open after he wounds them.

....from a guy who heard from a guy who was related to another guy who knows a guy who once polished Mark Sullivan's shoes......


Brett

Honestly the BVC sounds like a great place to take a monster lion from what I've heard and researched. My only concerns would be am I interested in a full bag hunt with lion or a lion hunt? What are your realistic chances of taking the quality lion you're looking for ON FOOT DURING THE DAY in the BVC? It seems to have the lions, it seems to have the quality, but like tha Save are your chances of taking a lion of acceptable quality reasonable DURING DAY LIGHT HOURS? I really don't know and this is just what I'd be asking if I were you. If it's good I'd probably go with BVC if a full bag safari with sable, roan, 3 buff, ect wasn't the main concern. That said did you find out the concession you'd hunt with Mark?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by cool dude:
Jorge,
Mark is favouring walking with minimal baiting (Tanzania)and John is leaning in the opposite direction. With John it will be the Bubye Concession.

Dude: In my experience with John, this sounds exactly backwards. I know for a fact John only baits to locate, and then follow of foot – he NEVER shoots from blinds at night at least not for lion. It is all done on foot during the daylight hours, and he has a pretty high success rate.

Like I said previosuly, the ringing endoresment here-from peers- pretty well stands on it's own. Good luck! jorge

Sharp John, you will have a very, very good chance of getting a superb lion with him in that area. Good luck with all your preperations..

So have you decided??? I think you "owe" us!

Originally posted by RichP470:
I am scheduled for a lion hunt in Bubye in 13 with Brent Hein. From what I have seen and heard it is a sure thing on a big cat as they have an over abundance of lions.


Behind the high fence....where is the problem to shoot a Lion !

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:
Originally posted by RichP470:
I am scheduled for a lion hunt in Bubye in 13 with Brent Hein. From what I have seen and heard it is a sure thing on a big cat as they have an over abundance of lions.


Behind the high fence....where is the problem to shoot a Lion !

Is the Bubye high fenced?

Andrew,

But it's 1,000,000 acres.

Mark

MS does have a video with a Lion charge in it. I forget which one, but the client stopped it after switching to his 470. He shot it on top of a pile of rocks with a 375. Shot it while walking up to the bait.

If anyone is really interested, I'll look through my DVD's and find out the exact one, and the exact time code within the DVD.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Andrew,

But it's 1,000,000 acres.

Mark

Hell of a block.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Has anyone ever wonder why Mark Sullivan does not make charging lion videos?

Tanz in general has it over Zim for other beasts on a 21-day license, that's for sure. But if you're truly focused on lion, then it would likely be better to go with the Zim option, since Bubye seems to be rife with them.

Not to mention that, as a personal matter, I would not hunt with MS, but would gladly do so with JS.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Andrew,

But it's 1,000,000 acres.

Mark

And I seriously doubt it isn't compromised in more than one area.

Jeez, can you imagine being tasked with the job of keeping that fence in decent order? 24/7/365 job! I bet there are places you could taxi a 747 through at times.

Even if it was in perfect order, no possible way it could change the outcome of a Lion hunt.

It's a non issue.

I personaly think a Lion hunt should be done in the wilderness.

I have been to both TZ and Zim many times. My last 63 days in TZ not only did not result in be taking a lion, I didn't even see a mature male. It took me 8 days in the Save to take my lion. Of course, that was after 3 buff and a bunch of plains game (including a 60 inch kudu).

I am on a plane in Argentina coming home from
A dove hunt. Some AR members were there as were some people that have hunted Africa many times. Several have been in some of the TV shows. None took a lion in TZ. Not a one. More than one asked me where I would go.

In addition, TZ has that insane 6 year old rule which as a practical matter means that PH's are not going to take chances. One operator in a prime area was 1 for 17 in 2011.

You are taking a big gamble in TZ. Go to Zim. Save a lot of money . Get your lion. Forget TZ.

I guess I was the odd one out.

I shot my lion in the Masailand in December.

The 6 year rule is making it a bit more of a concern to the PH's, and definitely is lowering success rates, but then who wants a immature lion?

I think that Tanzania is a better choice for a full bag hunt than Zim, especially in northern or western Tanzania due to the specialized varieties of plains game available.

I expect that the Bubye will be a more sure thing for a Lion than any Tanzania block.

I will also say that my PH told me that it really depends on the block in Tanzania as to how good the hunting is. I expect that if you can't get specifics on the block, you probably would be best avoiding Tanzania. I don't know too much about Mr. Sullivan's hunting area, but I expect he's one of those guys who subcontract a hunting area from another outfit or buy a hunt/quota from an established operator. The few guys who I know who have hunted with Mark say he's a hunter second to none, and I remember that one of my earlier PH's said that he was a great cat guy (and Alister was not too shabby a cat guy himself...) so if you want to hunt Tanzania and Mr. Sullivan can tell you where and it is not a shot out mess, then go for it, but at best you have a 60-80% chance at a Lion.

I have heard nothing but good about Mr. Sharp. Zim is also one of the few places that really has held the line traditionally with Lion quota, so I would not hesitate to hunt Lion with him there.

Its the rest of the packaging that makes the choice.

Do you want a Lion, and the rest is gravy, or do you want a full bag and the Lion is the cherry on the topping?

Dr. Butler,

Read my last post in lion conservation forum.

Despite the ongoing debate on MS he is a honest straight up guy and you will have a great hunt with him as he is without doubt a very accomplished hunter ( yet to hear a negative report from some that has ACTUALY hunted with him.)

However as mentioned that stupid "6 year rule- or else" will very much work against you. We have had quite a few lion enquires from fellows that have "failed" in TZ despite seeing what to them where definate takers but the PH did not want to take the risk.

I would definately go with John Sharpe in the Bubye. Great lions, super hunting all round and one of Zims top PH. 1000 000 acers can hardly be deemed as a fenced area that will garantee the success of a hunt.

There is a lion charge on one of MS's video but the client whacks the hell out of it with his 470 before the degree of halitosis was determined (to put it as PHC may have).

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

However as mentioned that stupid "6 year rule- or else" will very much work against you. We have had quite a few lion enquires from fellows that have "failed" in TZ despite seeing what to them where definate takers but the PH did not want to take the risk.

If your wish is to shoot an immature trophy...I agree 100%.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have been to both TZ and Zim many times. My last 63 days in TZ not only did not result in be taking a lion, I didn't even see a mature male. It took me 8 days in the Save to take my lion. Of course, that was after 3 buff and a bunch of plains game (including a 60 inch kudu).

I am on a plane in Argentina coming home from
A dove hunt. Some AR members were there as were some people that have hunted Africa many times. Several have been in some of the TV shows. None took a lion in TZ. Not a one. More than one asked me where I would go.

In addition, TZ has that insane 6 year old rule which as a practical matter means that PH's are not going to take chances. One operator in a prime area was 1 for 17 in 2011.

You are taking a big gamble in TZ. Go to Zim. Save a lot of money . Get your lion. Forget TZ.

Larry,

In all fairness the Lions that Adam Clements took and posted recently were the best I have seen.

However I have always stated that if you install ridged policy then be fair on the hunter and compensate failures.

17 Lion hunts @ $60,000 is over a million bucks in daily rates alone. That is not a bad little earner for taking out one Lion.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

In all fairness the Lions that Adam Clements took and posted recently were the best I have seen.

From a block held one year by ACST managed the 10 preceding years by TGTS using a hard-and-fast 6 year old rule self-imposed to manage for those type of lion...and that is the simple truth.

TGTS deserve the credit for producing those lion...and its a testimony for age-based off-take.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:

However as mentioned that stupid "6 year rule- or else" will very much work against you. We have had quite a few lion enquires from fellows that have "failed" in TZ despite seeing what to them where definate takers but the PH did not want to take the risk.

If your wish is to shoot an immature trophy...I agree 100%.

This mature/immature nonsense will go on forever.
You know it and others know that a lion is mature between 4-5 years - that it may be in its prime is a different issue so for those who are shooting what you claim to be immature animals is incorrect.

If the quota permits it and the numbers are safe, where lies the problem in taking out several specimen between the age 0f 4-6 and leaving perhaps those few 6-8 year old genetically qualified lion to sow their seed ?

As has been said before, the 6+ yr 'hard and fast rule' which has been applied to TZ has done FA to help the lion as most of the hunting of the species will now be diverted south of the border as it has been amply evidenced.

And the further south you go the better the 'trophy' gets

quote:

TGTS deserve the credit for producing those lion...and its a testimony for age-based off-take.

+ 1

+2

Gentlemen:

I am not at all disputing the quality of those lions . The 6 year rule has most if not all ph's terrified to make a mistake. The penalties are severe. I hear from what i consider to be a reliable source that a particular big name company in big name areas is being given a bunch of grief over 2 lions they shot. Other ph's are shocked. These lions were lions they would have taken first day without question. They are now all terrified to make a mistake .

Yes Andrew. It is a lot of money. However , it is enormously expensive to operate in these areas .

Not every area in TZ has the lions that Adam has. If I could take back my last 63 days in TZ and get my immense amount paid I would do it. I would go to Zim get my lion and put the rest in the bank .

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
You know it and others know that a lion is mature between 4-5 years - that it may be in its prime is a different issue so for those who are shooting what you claim to be immature animals is incorrect.

Fujo, You are correct in your semantics above. Here lies the rub: Once the lion becomes mature...there is a 2 year cub-to-cub interval for lioness. So...for a lion to be non-impact off-take...using your numbers above...the lion would need to be 6 or 7.

If the quota permits it and the numbers are safe, where lies the problem in taking out several specimen between the age 0f 4-6 and leaving perhaps those few 6-8 year old genetically qualified lion to sow their seed ?

In a perfect world...where the hunting industry was NOT ruled by the dollar...and all outfitters were on the same page with conservation...it would be fine.


As has been said before, the 6+ yr 'hard and fast rule' which has been applied to TZ has done FA to help the lion as most of the hunting of the species will now be diverted south of the border as it has been amply evidenced.

And the further south you go the better the 'trophy' gets

Fujo,
FA you say...how in the F is it supposed to help in one year...esp when it has not even been applied fully. With 70+/-% of the remaining wild lion...I don't think TZ has to worry too much.

Well, if were really disputing the #1 place to hunt for a big maned lion - we've left out the best place of all, Zambia's northern Kafue Blocks!

So "Cool Dude" you don't really want the steak or chicken, you actually want the Lobster, or maybe the Salmon (Lion in the Niassa - Mozambique) Something to consider, that's all.

In a perfect world...where the hunting industry was NOT ruled by the dollar...and all outfitters were on the same page with conservation...it would be fine.

And there you have it Lane !

Its what is going to take place come 2013 which is the worrisome part.

I am late to this thread but would say that while Old Lemko/Bubye is a great place to hunt it is high fenced and your trophy will be labeled as such just like a fenced cat from the RSA would be. TZ offers truly wild hunting and there are other options no one has mentioned including Namibia which has some huge cats. A little online research would produce photos of a huge cat taken by Mr. Boddington near Etosha to prove my point. We have 120 square miles of game farm in Namibia and I still prefer to go to the cattle farms to hunt for myself, no judgement on those who chose to hunt high fence just personal preference.

quote:

Originally posted by SafariSean:
I am late to this thread but would say that while Old Lemko/Bubye is a great place to hunt it is high fenced and your trophy will be labeled as such just like a fenced cat from the RSA would be.

quote:

Originally posted by SafariSean:
I am late to this thread but would say that while Old Lemko/Bubye is a great place to hunt it is high fenced and your trophy will be labeled as such just like a fenced cat from the RSA would be.

Nope.