Driving around Matetsi we seemed to notice that some heards gave us no mind, while others were very skittish. These heards included antelope, buffalo and giraffe.

This brings a few questions to the table:

1. Has a PH ever recommended you to take a shot from the car?
2. Have you ever shot game from a car wilst on safari?
3. Do you feel that this is or isnt ethical hunting?

I'm not judgeing anyone here but I would like to see some honest answere's from some of you out there. And describe the circumstances if you will.

LV ERIC

I was given the opportunity to decide on shooting
from a truck the first day. In no way was I pressured.

The area that I was hunting was very open and
short shots were rare. I shot a Oryx at 320 yds.
We couldn't get any closer and I felt that I needed the stability for a shot at that distance.

Later on I stalked a Kudu and shot from cross-sticks. The distance was 170 yds.I enjoyed the stalk,but in no way did it reduce the thrill
of the truck shot.

I have now arthritis in the feet and will only
be able to shoot from the truck or a blind. It is the only way I can hunt now and I don't feel it is less sporting.

I understand the other view and admire the hunter that can walk miles and miles and shoot offhand.
Life has trade-offs.

marshall

Hi,
I asked this same question a while back, as I was often asked to shoot from the truck when in South Africa. I met several South Africans who honestly believed that in flat areas with thick bush, the only way to guarantee a client 5-6 animals in a week was to cover much ground with a truck...
Personally, I feel there is a difference between stalking an animal and giving it every chance to hear or smell you and looking for a rest etc....and slowing down a truck and shooting. On the other hand, it is an accepted tactic in many areas and once the animals are aware of the danger, I suspect they become as wary of vehicles as men on foot.

I have done it, in occasions where it was clear that no other shot was going to present itself.

2 occasions come to mind, one was a long shot across a valley at a kudu. We were actually on our way to check a lepoard bait when one of the trackers spotted this thing some 300m or so away.

The other was a gemsbok, there was really no need to shoot from the truck, nor was there to go stalk, it was just a "gimmie"

It has also happened that we spotted game we were after form the truck, slowed to walking pace, jumped out and had the truck drive on.

Once the sound of the engine dissapeared we would commence the stalk.

So, is this "cheating" in some way too? I mean you aren't putting in the km on foot, but nor are you shooting from the jeep.

As if to get me back for the shot at the gemsbok, on another hunt we had to follow one up for 3 consecutive days, just myself and a tracker walking 12hours staight.

On the 3rd day we got "bushed"...not enough water with us, the radio was out of range, it got bad.
I started to get light headed and a bit delirous from the dehydration.
By now it was dark and at least the air had cooled.
We could recieve but not transmit with the radio so after some time the PH on the other end said "fire three shots into the air if you can hear me"
They were already out looking for us and heard the shots.
I remember drinking so much water I vomited it back up, then drank some more, a little lower this time.
It all worked out, but the tracker got a very hard talking to about not carrying enough water etc.
In all honesty it wasn't expected that I we would have gone so far, and as you do sometimes, we adopted the "she'll be right" attitude.
The tracker, John, would find tiny bits of bone, specs of blood, bits of hair every so often enough to lead us further and further.

We called the search off after that, and the gemsbok was found by helicopter by chance on the last day.

It's actually illegal in many parts of Africa to shoot from a truck. Personally I believe that if a hunter is fit and without physical handicap he or she should hunt on foot and not from a truck........ otherwise it would be called shooting and not hunting.

However if the client is wheelchair bound or unable to walk then I would rather see him shoot from the truck than not shoot at all.

Assuming a reasonably good hunting area an average hunter should have no problem in taking at least one animal per day. I took a client hunting in Zululand a few weeks ago and he shot 16 animals in 7 days hunting. (far better than most) All on foot and all after fairly long stalks. He was 65 years old and no fitter than average. However he was comfortable with his rifle and his marksmanship was excellent. Anyone who would like to see the quality of his trophies can go the www.imagestation.com and look at the Kuduland Safaris album........... Look at the photos titled
JW.

I think anything can be unethical, depending on the crecumstances! Those who shoot for trophy animals,from a car, when no disability exists,seem a little on the "SHOOTIST" side of things!

There are times when the shooting of game, from the car, is completely justified, like culling,for the pot,problem animals, or for baits, but not for trophy animals,IMO.

The use of the car to cover a lot of country is not unethical, IMO, especially on Safaris of short duration. I'm old, but in fairly fit condition, outside a lot of weight gain, since I haven't hunted Africa in four years. Even when in very fit condition, I like to use the car to crouse the tracks, spot game at a distance, then drive on for a mile or two, dismount, then stalk back, for a shot! I don't consider this to be unethical. The shooting on water holes, can be either ethical, or unethical, depending on how it is done, and whether there is water in many pans or not. What I mean by this is, if there is only one source of water in a large area, then the animals are locked into this particular water hole, and it would be unethical to ambush any animal at that water source. It is my opinion, all hunting, in Africa, is tied to water, in one way or another. This fact is why the nay-sayers, tend to book their hunts in the very hot dry season, because it naturally consentrates the game, into a much smaller area. This same guy will, will take a wholier than thou, attitude to the guy who may have walked for miles, but happens to find what he is looking for at, or near water! I think that is a little self searving!

Now just rideing around in the hunting car, and shooting everything from the seat of that car, is not hunting, but as someone already said, SHOOTING! Just one man's opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All interesting thoughts and opinions. Go to Mew Mexico and see how much hunting (all kinds Rifle Pistol Bow etc.) is done over water holes. I have shot alot of game from the Bakkie and I have stalked some, I have a knee with out cartalige in one side. I have a hard time walking down the street let alone rocky ground. Last year I climbed Koppies to glass for Kilpspringers man it hurt. Also last year I hunted Namibia both in the south (wide open) and the north Mts.. They young PH (I knew this before hand) wanted everything shot from the Bakkie. He and I discussed this and he made some points about ethics. You talk about fair chase but yet you have the most powerful flatest shooting rifle, the best binos etc, and then say shooting from good solid rest is un fair. Maybe the hunt should be only with spears eh, or if one is to use a gun it would be and open sighted 30-30. With the for mentioned equipment man you will stalk and get within 50 yds.. I know the toughtest hunt I have done was the darting of the Rino bull having to get within 30 yds for the dart to work. When I was growing up we pot hunted that is find a good whitetail path or crossing and spend the day waiting for one to come by, try that in Africa where the game has so much area to travel.

Hi,
I agree that nearly all African hunting has something to do with the rains and the availabililty of water. I noticed that some guides take clients from one water hole to the next to find tracks and stalk animals, this seems more sporting/interesting than sitting over a water trough during a drought as a friend of mine shot his kudu!
Ethics are really nebulous and change from one hunt/hunter to the next. Some people believe a rangefinder/super-magnum caliber is an unfair advantage whilst others don't mind sitting over a feeding station to shoot their eland (as I saw on a website).

Shooting over water is also illegal in many parts of Africa, and I personally feel it's a tricky one. Although I don't like it and try to avoid it, When I'm hunting Buffalo & elephant etc (for example) it's customary to check out the waterholes in the mornings for fresh spoor. So if you see a monster bull at the water, do you let the client shoot or not?...............

Fortunately I've never been faced with that problem, but I guess that sooner or later I will be. I guess it will depend upon many other factors such as is it the first or last day of the hunt and is the client fit and able to walk or getting on in years with buggered knees.

As with most things in Africa, one should never say never and never say always.

Ach Zoh! Ze question of ze mobile hochsitz once more.

/

Interesting. A year ago I would have had the "holier than thou" attitude but now that I�ve been to Africa I have mixed feelings: It�s easy to have an opinion before you�ve experienced something (I used to know everything about raising kids -that is until I became a father). If you just sit in the bakkie and drive around for trophies I can�t see it as ethical (that is if your physically fit) but if you�ve done the tracking, maybe passed up on a non-trophy animal and get the chance on your last hour of the hunt then that�s a different story: You paid your dues, tried and that�s what counts in my book. I shot my last pig on the last fifteen minutes of the hunt from the bakkie. I spotted it myself, shot offhand and I�m happy with the shot. But a year ago I would have said "Never". Things change, we change.

Hunting in Tanzania we noticed that the Impala were very skitish around the truck. I suspect they had been shot at from a vehicle. All of our hunting was done in the walk and stalk method.

We had the opportunity to cull some Wildebeast, this was done from the truck.

I booked a hunt in SA for 2004 with a PH who advertises "Whenever possible, hunts are conducted in the traditional walk and stalk fashiion. As the terrain varies greatly, clients who enjoy this type of hunting should try to be in good condition, and be prepared to walk several miles each day to give themselves the best opportunity at good trophies".

In my current physical condition, this is what I look for. If the situation changes, I will be forced to modify the method, as I will continue to hunt until I assume room tempurature

Having one artificial leg and one real one causes me to consider shooting from the truck okay. I have shot a zebra, impala and duiker from the truck. I try to get out and walk whenever possible but if a good opportunity presents itself from the truck I take it.

BigB

It seems to me that it is too easy to judge another hunter's tactics without knowing the circumstances, and declare them unsporting.

We fly on the big silver bird in sky to the far parts of the world where game is most abundant. Is that fair? We use high powered rifles and telscopic sights to shoot the animals. Is that fair? We travel by truck to the area where the game is most concentrated. Is that fair? Are the rules the same for a trophy hunter as for a hunter who needs the meat for his family? This can go on and on.

In the final analysis, each hunter must make the judgement for himself, based on his own circumstances.

In my mind, if I can go out and be assured of an easy shot within a short period of time, it has gotten too easy. If I have to work for a shot and may not get one at all, I generally feel comfortable with the circumstances.

But I don't presume to judge another hunter's ethics, and do not think anyone else should either, except for the professional hunter or guide on the scene at the time.

Do you shoot deer from a deer blind? Do you shoot them at the water tank? Do you shoot them off your 4 wheeler, the Jeep, your pickup?
Being raised a ranchers kid in west Texas I have seen it done all ways.
I have walked the draws and hills, rode up in a pickup to the same ones, sat in a deer blind (boring as hell but sometimes necessary in bad weather).
In Africa I have shot from the safari car, off cross sticks or tripod while walking, at the waterhole....I did mostley what ever in hell the PH I was with told me to do. When in Rome.....
I don't think I will get my panties in a wad over it either way. I was there using a jet airplane, a scoped rifle, and on and on.
I guess if I walked up on some game and cut it throat with a sharp knive that would still not be sporting or ethical to some.
I am going to do whatever seems to work and you loose sleep over it if you need to.
I am doing the hunting for me and not you and I sleep real good every night so far.

I think KLN put it very eloquently..........don't cast judgement on how your fellow hunters choose to hunt their game in Africa or elsewhere. As long as they are conducting themselves within the game laws of the area they hunt and they feel good about how they hunted their trophies, no one else needs to castigate them or belittle them for not using the same methods the accuser does. Anything else is elitist and hurts the collective hunting fraternity by dividing us into factions. We need to remain united and support all hunters and forms of hunting.

So many of us now days live in such a frantic world that forces us to spend 50 weeks a year putting food on the table.One week of our meager vacation is spent at the in-laws and if we are fortunate we get to reward ourselves with a week in Africa to cleanse our soul and reconnect with our ancestral hunting spirit. Now if the only way we can morally hunt is to deliberately avoid water holes , hunt from foot, and never take a shot from a vehicle; then at the end of our pitiful existence there will be precious few trophies in the trophy room.
The other side of the coin is represented by the fortunate sportsman who is through financial independence or otherwise is able to spend quite a bit more time afield. After taking several specimens of the more common game he may choose to up the ante, so to speak by either limiting himself to only very rare species, or only exceptional trophies. Or he may elect to take them only from the ground after a long stalk. How the game is taken becomes more important than the taking of the game itself. Sometimes we see this same evolution among fisherman.Cane pole with live bait:artificaials only:fly fishing: and finally only with flies tied oneself.
In my book one sportsman is not superior to another simply because of his metho

So many of us now days live in such a frantic world that forces us to spend 50 weeks a year putting food on the table.One week of our meager vacation is spent at the in-laws and if we are fortunate we get to reward ourselves with a week in Africa to cleanse our soul and reconnect with our ancestral hunting spirit. Now if the only way we can morally hunt is to deliberately avoid water holes , hunt from foot, and never take a shot from a vehicle; then at the end of our pitiful existence there will be precious few trophies in the trophy room.
The other side of the coin is represented by the fortunate sportsman who is through financial independence or otherwise is able to spend quite a bit more time afield. After taking several specimens of the more common game he may choose to up the ante, so to speak by either limiting himself to only very rare species, or only exceptional trophies. Or he may elect to take them only from the ground after a long stalk. How the game is taken becomes more important than the taking of the game itself. Sometimes we see this same evolution among fisherman.Cane pole with live bait:artificaials only:fly fishing: and finally only with flies tied oneself.
In my book one sportsman is not superior to another simply because of his methods. The same guy who shoots from the bakke with a high powered flat shooting rifle and a range finder may limit himself to trout only with hand tied dry flies.Is he a purist because of his attitude at the streamside or is he a wanton killer because of his hunting style? I contend he is neither. The difference is more a reflection of his opportunities and time and the time he can devote at the different pursuits...eyedoc

I have shot two animals from a bakkie, one from each safari - a warthog and an impala.

In both cases the PH urged me to take the shot quickly. With the warthog it was the only good warthog we saw for the entire trip. I also did not get much pleasure in "shooting" it from the vehicle, as I do not consider "shooting" from a vehicle hunting in any sense of the word. The impala I really didn't care and when urged just fired as I really wanted to stop stuffing around with all the small stuff and get on with the buffalo hunt which was all I cared about. The rest was just icing.

It doesn't worry me though as I also put in some very hard hunts especially on the first safari.

Even though I have done it still don't consider firing from the back of a bakkie hunting though and unless one's wheelchair doesn't run too well through the scrub think hunting should be done on foot.

[ 06-16-2003, 10:42: Message edited by: NitroX ]

1. Yes. In South Africa.

2. Yes. I was told "it's now or never" because of very open land. It was on a Zebra, and it was the last day of the hunt.

3. I don't feel that it is ethnical nor unethnical, I don't judge either. In Sweden we hunt with dogs, some think that is unfair. They don't realize that our dogs has 8 inches long legs and our deer laughs at the dogs while slowly jogging away from them.
I just don't feel that it's my type of hunt shooting from the car. I want to feel that I'm a bit away from civilization, some sense of wilderness, and I wouldn't like to miss the excitement in the stalking, crawling, sneaking....

As long as you don't wound the animals, or give them unneccessary anxiety, or breaks the law, do it the way you feel most sure about and the way that makes your hunt a memory for life.

I've done it and I did not feel slighted... nor did I feel that I "dishonored" the critter. It just worked out that way. It is not my practice but I believe I'd do it again in similar circumstances.

It depends.

1- If you have a restraining handicap, I do not see it as "lesser" to hunt from a 4x4. Actually this would probably encourage me: seeing a 85 year old senior in the woods, probably with his son and his grand-son... cool!

2- If in the end of your 2 weeks of hunting you have netted nothing, and happen to see something close to the road while going to your defined hunting destination... dagnabit! go for it!!!

3- If you intentionally ride in a 4x4 all day, to cover more terrain, with the intent of shooting from the 4x4, and are physically fit to do the walk, then I find this cheap.

I am guilty of the 3rd, hunting Moose last autumn in Quebec, after a week of seeing nothing. It was my buddy's idea, and I (stupidly) tought it made sens, on our last two days. I am 24 and in perfect condition... I should have known better.

Results: we did not see anything more on those darn dirt tracks... and we've probably missed-out on wonderful sights, deep in the woods.

I'll never do this again...

this is a very good topic....
When I was seventeen I had a crash with a bus while I was on my moto.
I'm not a phisician and excuse my non technical language, but the finale result as been a fracture near the femure head. Running is hard for me and painfull, a long range walk, moreover if it is done with fast steps, is near impossible for me, even if apparently I show only a little limp.
Someone told me that I can do something else rather than hunting, and I thanked wishing the same for them.
For sure I would like to be able to walk or run for hours, but I can't. But I can hunt from blind or, if it is possible, I can do a not too long walk hunt, having done an approach by car. Or using a horses sledge. And if necessary I used cars as bench.
In the described ways I hunted several deers,
and wild boars... Where or what is the problem?
These are my hunting possibilities, and I hunt as I can.

With a little envy for the people that can enjoy a long elephant chase...................

bye

What I think about hunting from a vehicle I can only apply to my own hunting. A lot of people wouldn't see the point of killing an animal even if I chased it down and used my bare hands.

Speaking for myself (and not anybody else), I think it would be unsportsmanlike to shoot an animal from a vehicle. When I am too old or infirm to walk, I will stop hunting.

Speaking for myself, I think hunting is a sport only to the extent there are some rules involved. The guys in wheelchairs don't win the Boston marathon no matter how close you start them to the finish line. Even if it was legal, I would not consider it hunting to stop along the interstate and shoot a deer out of someone's cow pasture. Maybe that same deer would stand there for me if I had stalked it on foot during legal hunting season. I don't think it would, but if I wanted to prove that it would, that's how I would have to approach the deer. If somebody pulls up behind me, sticks a rifle out the window, and kills the deer from his car; I don't care if he's in a hurry because it's the last day of hunting season or he did it because he's 99 years old and has bad knees. It's his deer. It's his rules he's hunting by. I wouldn't do it.

That's just speaking for myself.

H. C.

No offence HC but how old are you? I would like to hear your opinion when the time comes when you won't be able to go as you do now, been there and done that. I like the Boss's statement re hunting Africa the PH hunts and I follow along and shoot when he says. I would be willing to bet that is the case with 90+% of the posters here if the truth be told. So the only difference is where the shot is taken.

Lets take this a step further. You are riding with your PH along a ranch road and come to an area with an overlook which is about 50 yds off the road and you stop and get out walk over to the overlook set up with your bi-pod or some other rest and you and your PH glass the area for about an hr and then you see a nice Kudu bull (58") at about 250 yds and you take the bull. Second set of cirsumstances you drive about 50 yds down the same road and find you can glass from the back of the Bakkie the story plays out the same as above - which is the better or more ehtical hunter?

[ 06-16-2003, 23:56: Message edited by: Die Ou Jagter ]

My hunting buddy is 63 and in excellent shape (I accuse him of having 7 League boots). I, on the other hand, am 55 and legally 20% disabled. He hunts the long distances and I walk as I can (bad knees, compressed disk in back, and separated shoulders). I prefer hunting as much on my own two feet as possible. However, in Colorado, that may not always be possible. Do we drive? Of course. Do we shoot out of the truck? Never(its illegal anyway)! Would I condemn our compadre who hurt himself on the moto and is in his twenties? Never. IMHO, it comes down to a person's condition, circumstances, and as KLN said, your own ethics at the time.

DOJ,

I'm old enough I have aches and pains and days I don't want to walk a mile over rough ground. When the time comes, I'll probably do what most old men do. Fish, punch paper at the range, and hang out at the gun store all day.

H. C.

From one who's been there...

Never say never... and never say always....

You'll eat them words...

[ 06-17-2003, 02:41: Message edited by: Crosshairs ]

Being raised on a big Texas ranch, not far from Harry I kinda adopted his attitude....

Now if you want to stir up the troops just ask this question over on Big Game Hunting of this forum....you have some real holier than thou hunters over there, some of them have even shot something.

Hunt the way YOU want, as long as it's legal. At the end of the day, if you're happy with yourself and your hunt, what's the problem. No one else is paying for your hunt, do it your way.

Now, if you want to pay for the hunt, I'll hunt it the way you want!

The problem with shooting from trucks at heard animals is that it screws it up for the next hunter. It is very difficult to approach a heard of bullalo when they see a truck and run like hell over the next 3 ridges. I feel that it is just lazyness on the part of the PH, not so much the client. If there is only a 500 yard shot on a trophy animal it is the responsibility of the PH to figure an approach, that is hunting by definition is'nt it?

Have I shot anything from a car? Yes, lots of jack rabbits and the occasional fox.

I feel that on safari that shooting from a vehical shouldnt be done. I have jumped out of a truck and shot lots of bait animals but never while in a truck or useing one as a rest.

How about this as an idea?

The game laws are the boundries around what most of the world considers to be ethical hunting. They fence out the things most of the world considers to be UNethical, and form a window for the hunter to form HIS own ethics. What you consider unethical, may be ethical to the next man. If both are within the law, both men are "ETHICAL"!

I'm always very interested in these discussions - it must be the former political philosophy grad student in me.

The two main arguments that people always put forward in defense of shooting from vehicles are physical disability, and legality.

I don't think physical disability was what the original question was about. So I don't think the anti-roadhunting group hates handicapped hunters. Game laws all over the US make exceptions for different vehicles or devices that a hunter may have to use if it's the only way he can hunt; that's a good thing for the handicapped folks and for hunting generally in a political sense. We are all OK with that!

The second argument that comes up is legality. Problem with relying on that is that not everything that is legal is ethical, and not everything unethical is legal. There may be plenty of behavior that is unethical as all get out but that the government just hasn't gotten around to yet. If your wife asks you what you did all day and you tell her you were at a charity fundraiser, but in reality the only donations you made were stuck inside Misti's G-string down at the Good Guys Club, you haven't broken the law but ...

I'm not judging anyone here, but I do know I personally don't care for shooting from vehicles or even jumping out to shoot (which I've done, but fortunately missed since it gave me the chance for a much more interesting stalk the next day). As I said in my "Looking for a Hunt" thread, I spend enough time here in town sitting in the damn truck. On my vacation I want to go stretch my legs as long as I can!

John

I have taken a couple of shots from the bakkie. I cant say I liked it much. Was it still hunting? Yes. Was it as fullfilling as a shot after a good stalk? No. You can take the lead from your PH most of the time in these things. You just have to decide what you want to do or not. Ultimately you will be the one to make the choice. The evening after I took a shot from the bakkie I said
something to my PH. I told him I didnt really like to shoot from the truck and had a hard time with it. The next day we split off from the rest of the group and spent the whole day stalking in the really thick stuff on foot. The bakkie was left miles behind. It was most enjoyable. Nothing more was said about it after that but all further stalks were like that. It is a matter to be decided by each person. It isnt a right or wrong answer. Every situation is unique and there is no absolute answer for every situation you will encounter.

[ 06-18-2003, 22:22: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]

Allowing the PH to decide whether or not you shoot from a vehicle is sort of like allowing your contractor to design your house. He doesn't have to live with it, you do. Both should be told what you expect and work towards that goal.

A PH makes his living guiding hunters. The more animals that you shoot, the more he makes in commission and in tips. If you are happy to shoot 16 animals 'good' animals from a truck than he makes more money than if you shoot 8 'average' animals by foot. He may not like shooting from a vehicle and he surely will not think much of you for doing it but it is how he makes his living.

A smile, a pat on the back for your great hunting skills, cash in the bank and a new job next week.

Remember the two rules of being a PH. Always tell the client how great he is and always keep your opinions to yourself.

[ 06-18-2003, 20:20: Message edited by: Mickey1 ]

Mickey, I think you missed my point.

quote:

---

You can take the lead from your PH most of the time in these things. You just have to decide what you want to do or not. Ultimately you will be the one to make the choice.

---

I agree that it is in the Ph's interest to get you to shoot as much as possible. You will notice I said most of the time. The point was it is still untimately up to the individual to decide. Once I made my feelings known, it never came up again. The ph will go with what we as the clients want. We just have to make clear what that is.

[ 06-18-2003, 22:18: Message edited by: Mike Smith ]