Folks,

Take a look at the two pics below but please bear in mind that when the animals concerned took the bullets in their respective faces, their bodies and heads would have been in a different position in relation to how you see them in the pics.

I've just been down to Lifeform Taxidermy to check out the bullet paths. The Lion has an entry hole in the "face" but I can't see where it exited... however, there is a hole in the palate. I'm sure the .500 bullet couldn't have turned at right angles in an inch or two. (if that were the case, the shot wouldn't have killed the Lion... and it did.) - so maybe that was some kind of blast/hydrostatic damage etc(?) I did find some small scratch marks that could well have been caused by the bullet, at what I guess would be described as the top back of the nasal passage - so maybe the bullet went onto break the spine - there was no damage to the brain pan itself.......

With the Leopard, it's pretty much exactly the same scenario, - even down to the scratch marks at the back of the nasal passage. (the palate is intact though) except that I can't even find the entry hole! - now how in hell can you look at that picture of the Leopard with that bloody great hole in its face and yet not have a hole in the skull? - My first thought was that I was looking at a different skull - but I'm absolutely sure that this isn't the case..... our Leopard had the front right canine snapped off and so does this one.......... Anyone out there got any ideas? - If I can't find a reasonable explanation, I'll have to put it down to magic I guess.......

Was the lion first hit in the body and then bouncing around while being shot at? They get hit all over at all different angles when that happens. Might have actually died from first hit in body (if there was one) but seemed to have died from hit in head.

The leopard looks like a crease!

VBR,


Ted Gorsline

Steve,

I shot an imapala for camp meat once. 40 yards with a 30.06, right between the eyes. Except for the bullet hole and one eye slightly bulging out, no apparant damage to skull. One would have thought the bullet might have exited or the impact deformed the skull. The skull must be quite strong on these animals.

Regards,

Terry

Ted,

Yup, you're right in that it had been hit with a frontal chest shot that made it jump straight up in the air and my shot hit it at the top of its bounce. (normally, I wouldn't have shot, but had been asked to) - but that doesn't explain where the hell that bullet went........ When I put my finger in the hole after we'd got it to the skinning shed my finger went in it's entire length, straight towards the back of the head... my guess is that it went down the nasal passage and broke the neck - but it just strikes me as odd that the only evidence it left was a few small scratches at the back of the nasal passage....... for two bullets to do the same thing on two seperate animals must be almost impossible - if I have that kind of luck, I'd better go out and buy a lottery ticket!

The Leopard couldn't have been a crease as I looked at the skinned carcass after it had been severed from the head and could see where the bullet had gone right through the length of the body and out of its ass....but I can't work out how the hell it got out of the skull....

Terry,

I see your point, but this was a 510 grain .500 Jeffery bullet, at 6 yards for the Leopard and about 15 yards for the Lion.

Steve,

This only goes to show how border line the .500 Jeffery is ! You obviously need a bigger gun!

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

Bigger is not always better. Maybe a 45-70 would have done better? Some here have far to low an appreciation of this old stalwart in Africa.

All I can contribute to Steve's dilemma is to note that the longer and the more I hunt, the more very difficult to explain things happen.

In good hunting.

Shakari
Was the lepard shot form the side.
I'm sending a PM

Dr B

Dr B

The client shot it too far back and from the side and below. - then the animal ran into the thick stuff and I and another PH who works for us tracked it (at night) - took about an hour and we got a charge which we stopped at 6 yards. As I said, my .500 bullet travelled the length of the body and exited near its ass. The other PH shot it in the face with a 12 gauge which broke both jaw hinges..... interestingly, most of the (AAA)shot failed to penetrate the skull.......

Bullets frequently follow the path of least resistance. In the case of a frontal shot to the face, that path might be via the base of the skull down th spinal cord.

Geronimo

...just speculating - tho consider close range you probably shoot both downwards and I guess they both "swallowed" the bullets - i.e. bullets went down the troath - with lion catching the spinal cord, on leopards scratch marks at the back of the nasal passage may well be coused by remains of the canine - some pics of related skulls - on lion skull one can see how narrow cat skull (brain area) is behind the eye sockets (source: http://www.boneclones.com/skulls.htm) :

lion skull:



leopard skull:



- good luck in finding the truth ...

I've had one instance of a sitka blacktailed deer shot in the nose where the bullet entered the cranium and followed the inner curve of the skull to continue down into the spinal column. No exit, no visible damage on the outside other than a slit on the bridge of the nose. Dead FAST.

But ditto Andrew McLaren - lots of hmmmmms??? out there.

Steve, you should have been useing a 45-70! I understand the 45-70 with Garrette ammo kills without even hitting the animal!

Slightly off topic, but I love the way that lion skull is mounted, even if it is a replic in this case?

Instead of a single visable pillar holding it up, I could also use a "V" shape support so it was effectively hidden behind the jaw bone..

Damn good shooting under less than ideal circumstances. You were really putting the your bullets where they were going to do the most good.

Perry

you know what they say, - the more I practice, the luckier I get! - But thanks for the compliment!

The shotgun's failure (penetration at least) doesn't surprise me. In fact its what I'd expect. I immediately surmised your leopard had deepthroated the .500 bullet, this is further evidenced farther on when you state it exited his ass... hmmm a few more drinks and this could take on a different nature!

Steve this is a little off topic,but you may help me make up my mind on this. I have a 602 brno in 458 win mag, I will either rechamber to the lott, or go to a 510 wells/500 A-frame. Do you think that a .458 dia round would have had a diffent out come, does a .500 dia + round hit that much harder. I was surprise at how far zebra and blue wildebeest ran after .416 rounds through the old engine room. I hope to hunt cape buff in a year or so.

Thanks
JD

JD

The guy you need to ask is really ALF who posts here...... he's forgotten more than I'll EVER know about rifles....... but I would have thought you'd have more flexibility (bearing in mind it'll be a hunting rifle and not just a charge stopper)and less cost if you altered the .458 to a Lott or a .458 - 3 inch Stewart. There might even be an argument for keeping the .458 as it is..... It'd save you a fair bit of money that you could then put towards your hunt and plenty of people do very well with them. Most of the .458 problems seem to have been cured now we have better powders etc...... Hopefully ALF will comment.........

My .500 is a great rifle, but it was designed and built solely as a charge stopper. It's very short barelled and very fast handling - a bit like a shotgun in some respects...... but it's not so good at longer ranges.....

I'll add that you asked if a .500 hits harder than a .458 - I guess I'd have to say, yes it does...... but whether that is particularly important in practise, I'm not so sure..... where you put the bullet and bullet design is probably more important than the extra foot pounds of energy etc.

Shakari
Hve you ever stoped the charge of a Buffalo or ele. with your 500 NE or any other rifle.
Dr B

Yes to both of your questions with other rifles. I've also turned a couple of Elephants with my .500 using a trick Ganyana tipped me off about - shooting 'em in the outside edge of the ear.... and it worked brilliantly.

Also stopped a few Buff at different times with the .500. (Most recently) these two. also shot two or three (previously wounded) Buff through saplings etc. I had a blonde moment just after I shot the one in the first picture. After it fell, I immediatly tried to put in an insurance shot as I always do. The best view I could get was down low....... and stupidly squatted down (instead of kneeling) and whacked it again..... bloody recoil knocked me straight on my ass! - The tracker and my buddy & fellow PH (Colin Kirkham pictured L) who was with me couldn't stand up for laughing! - Oh well, shit happens... The client is a very good friend of mine and I'm just glad he didn't see it as he's a merciless practical joker etc and he'd NEVER let me live it down...... he still doesn't know the story!

I should add, that I probably don't get as many charges as some PHs as my follow up method is probably different to some. I give them more time to stiffen up and bleed out and when we see the animal I ALWAYS approach from behind if at all possible and with caution. I also equip the head tracker with a catapault to shoot the animal in the ass a few times as we approach. If it so much as farts, either I or the client shoot again. (preferably the client). Every PH hunts his own way, but I was taught and still believe that grandstanding is unprofessional and the word Professional is there in the job title and spelt with a capital P for good reason.......

Don,

If you read this, I've tried umpteen times to make those pics smaller - and can't.... please feel free to try if you want to - if not please feel free to remove them if you need to.... sorry.

On the subject of Mr Spots, I think I might have sussed it out. I forgot the animal would almost certainly have been snarling so the mouth would have been in a different position..... looks like the bullet might have gone in and straight through the hole below the eye and from there in a straight line down the nasal passage and into the body...... at least, it's the only solution I can think of..... it must have gotten into the body somehow as it travelled the length of it....

HOORAY!!!!! - done it!!!!!

Ooooops!