I have used Mod 70 Winchesters since 1962. I normally carry them with the safety in the most rearward position, except when expecting a shot at any minute such as stalking in timber or approaching dangerous game in africa. Then I carry the safety in the middle position where a gentle push forward takes the safety off as the rifle comes to my shoulder. Last year in Zim on an ele hunt my PH asked me to carry my rifle with the safety all the way to the rear as it wasn't safe to carry it in the middle position and he and the trackers didn't want me carrying an rifle that in their opinion was unsafe.

What do you think? Is carrying a Mod 70 with the safety in the middle position unsafe?

465H&H

465,

On my Dakota (M70 clone), you could lift the bolt handle up indipendantly of the bolt and remove the firing pin from the middle safety position.

So I would be reluctant to use it w a Dakota.

I personally was very nervous about the use of the over-the-shoulder muzzle forward "Africa carry," since the muzzle so often crossed over one of your hunting partners X zone.

Fortunately everyone in my party (three rifles) did have a Mauser action, w the exception of the game guards FNLAR which he carried cocked and locked even in the Toyota!

Andy

465 H&H

It would seem the only unsafe part of carrying it with the safety in middle position would be that the safety could be pushed into the fire position by accident more easily.

I do think that often PH's who are not neccessarily gun gurus by any stretch of the imagination form general opinions on a case studdy of one. Maybe he had a problem one time with a guy having an accidental discharge with the safety in the middle position.

I've had PH's tell me some interesting gun related "facts". I've been told Weatherby's were no good because they go off when the bolt is closed. Well the problem was sear engagement not the brand of rifle. Of course the one that you run into pretty often is that soft points are no good for big game and you must use solids only. That gem came from some failures of old softS in the past and is passed on from and to people who have never tried modern soft points.

Your next PH may not even notice your safety position. Some actually don't even use their own.

Mark

I've always kept mine all the way to the rear, except when unloading the magazine when I put it to the middle position. I have never had any problem putting it forward to the fire position when bringing the rifle to the sticks or to my shoulder.

I would carry it with the safety all the way to the rear. Because I borrowed a friend 's Mod 70 in 375 to hunt lion with this past year and carried on half safe and it caused problems. Mainly, it was a right handed gun and I shoot left handed and as I was carrying the rifle on my left shoulder the bolt caught on my vest and lifted the bolt very slightly. If I needed to make a quick shot, I would not have been able to since the rifle will not fire if the bolt is not all the way down.

I own a half dozen mdl 70s both pre and post '64. My question to you 465 is just exactly how much time are you going to loose by keeping your rifle safe (all the way to the rear) ?
I can hardly imagine any instance where that fraction of a second would be the difference in a quick shot or not...hell I'd think the odds are much more in favor of an accident than a life threatening charge.

Let me clarify. I would never carry it in the middle position when over my shoulder or any way except with both hands. The reason I carry it in the middle position is that I have missed pushing the safety off when in a hurry and my thumb slips off the safety. The only problem I see in carrying it in the middle position is that the bolt could open and on later Mod 7-s that would mean you can't get the safety off. Not a problem with Pre-64s though. Also I never take the safety off until I lift the rifle to my shoulder. No off safety carry for me even when following up wounded DG.

465H&H

465,

I use my M70 safety the same way you do, it is also quieter that way.

Having said that, I found you hear all sorts of crazy things from people in the world and if it does not make much difference I just do it. That is one way you also learn how to do certain things in new ways as well.

IMHO, if it doesn't cause a safety issue you might as well do what the PH recommends.

Mark!

I agree and I did carry it as requested but I couldn't agree with the PH that it was dangerous to carry in the middle position. Even Pondoro Taylor recommended carrying the flag safety on Mauser in the middle position.

465H&H

465H&H,

I have three position, Model 70 style safeties on many of my bolt rifles. When getting close, I often will move the safety forward into the middle position. I absolutely agree with you that there is nothing unsafe about that practice. The safety is still "on."

I also keep my trigger finger out of the trigger guard until I am ready to shoot, and never cover anything with the rifle's muzzle that I am unwilling to shoot.

Those practices permit me to feel very comfortable hunting with my safety off when circumstances warrant, as when tracking a wounded dangerous animal.

Does no one else carry their bolt guns with the firing ping "let down" on a chambered round?

To carry a Model 70 in the "half-safe" position is very dangerous because the bolt can come up just enough to not allow the safety to be pushed to the "off-safe" position. This is what I invisioned when I read the report of the women that got gored by the buffalo a year or two back. I think that the husband had a model 70 and I suspect that he was going after the wounded buffalo with the gun on the "half safe" position. With this the bolt can be easily raised, and it doesn't have to be raised very much to put the safety in a bind thus making the gun useless. The safety won't go off or on when this happens. The purpose of the three position safety is for unloading the gun while still on safe. It is a lawyers safety. You guys with Model 70's should try this with an unloaded weapon and verify. Could save your life. In the heat of going in after a wounded beast that will hit back I can understand how the bolt could be slightly raised with the hunter concentrating on the stalk and not the gun. We take our guns for granted in situations like those.

I have hunted with three different PHs using model 70s. I don't know where it comes from but all three carried there gun with the safety on fire but with the bolt slightly lifted. When they need their rifle they simply tap the bolt handle into the fire position. One had even trained his tracker to carry a spare 375 in that fashion when following up buffalo. Made me nervous to say the least!!!

Pegleg, that particular safety was in the most rear position when the incident occured.

Chuck

Chuck=How do you know this? I don't have the article but I seem to remember that the gentleman said he had trouble with the safety. What other trouble could he have had? The memory is one of the first things to go. I think.

I believe one of the reasons for the M98 in the "flag up" position is so that in the heat of battle, up goes the rifle, but all you see is the flag...so you need to put the safety off...with the M70, I like the rear, safe version, since I like to know that the bolt is locked down...my version of the above...Arthur Olds

Pegleg, I know the story. It was discussed here with Keith Atcheson at length. I also know the issue and on some Model 70's with the safety in the rearmost position and the bolt hnadle lifted slightly, the safety won't disengage.

Chuck

This story probably eminates from PH Brent Hein when I about dropped him a couple years ago (not really but it scared the hell out of both of us), when we approaching an elephant, after which I complained here on AR about the Mod. 70 safety.

I was touching the trigger, but not putting any perceptable force on it, as I pushed the safety from "SAFE" forward. When you do that with a Mod. 70 type safety and the safety is in the middle postion, the thing will fire (releases the firing pin) with just the slightest pressure on the trigger. The effect was "news" to me. The release of the firing pin when pushing the safety through the middle position can be retarded only by increasing the trigger pull.

Besides all the wasted motion, it is another reason I do like like Mod. 70 type safeties and why I prefer a 2-position safety. Admittedly it was my own fault but in the heat of the moment I do not want a Mod. 70 type safety, period.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

What do you think? Is carrying a Mod 70 with the safety in the middle position unsafe?

465H&H

Certainly unwise.

Isn't that Keith Acheson's gun fouled up, delaying him getting a bullet into the buffalo that gored his wife? Something about the bolt handle having gotten pushed up so the gun would not fire.

The same thing happens with a Rem 700 with a safety that does not lock the bolt handle down. The bolt handle gets pushed up a little, then when the safety is pushed and the trigger pulled the gun will go "click" but the firing pin will not hit the primer.

Will

Now I understand better why Brent was so adamant on the safety issue. The bolt lift/safety problem only applys to post 64 Mod 70s and not too pre 64s at least not to any of the 5 that I have. I can't get any to do it. I also tried to replecate Will's AD but none of my pre 64s will do that either. I even tried it with more then 4 lbs on the trigger (all have about 4 lb triggers give or take a little). They will not fire until the safety goes all the way off. Another reason that the pre 64 Mod 70 can't be beat. I now know why Brent has that strange part in his hair.

465H&H

Will- The Model 70 trigger is a very simple trigger. That being said, it is easy for just about anyone to adjust it. The problem with the trigger when used for dangerous game is the sear and disconnect ride on a very fine surface when adjusted down to a lighter trigger pull. It CAN be rectified by tuning by a very compentant smith that works on the model 70 style triggers. The surfaces that meet must be carefully honed to match up perfectly. This is something that the normal guy just can't do. (Like me) When I see my smith work on a Model 70 trigger he uses a high power magnifying glass to observe his work. He says that is the only way to see if the surfaces match up correctly. He has angle guages and straight edges and what not that he works with. This way the trigger is glass smooth but also has a complete surface bearing area (very important)which makes the trigger safe even in the cases you described. He knows the trigger and he tries every possible way to try and make it fail. I guess this is another reason 500 Grains says that every dangerous game rifle should be GONE OVER by a COMPETENT gun smith who works on dangerous game rifles. Maybe I'm wrong. I have had the same failure as you have had and I decided that to put myself in danger or even a hunting partner in danger from a faulty trigger just wasn't worth it. Maybe this is what happened in your case and maybe not, but I know that the Model 70 safety and trigger can be really dangerous if not adjusted and tuned correctly. Just my .02 worth.