Is it a winner or a flash in the Pan ?

good shooting...and thanx........10

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 07-28-2001).]

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

As in "for a lefty or Left eyed" also ?.......thanx.........Rick

About two months ago at a show I saw a like new blued, left hand Model 70 in .375 H&H. It was apparently from 1998, the first year Winchester made leftie Model 70's judging by the stock style (monte carlo)and the littel screw in the bolt shroud. They wanted $750 for it - perhaps overpriced but this store deals in rare and expensive stuff, and we left handers are always over a barrel anyway.

If you want I can call on Monday and see if they still have it. I have a .375 or would have snatched it up. I don't need a Lott but was thinking what a nice .416 Rem. Mag it would make.

OR, you can use a Model 700 Mag action - that can be converted as is.

I will be trying JJ's .458 Lott next June. I have to admit that I havnt heard a bad word about the wildcat and Im developing a real interest in it. As YOU know being a lefty can be a real challenge when looking for an affordable rifle. This is magnified when a big bore is on the menu.

I like the idea of sending a 500 grn bullet at 2300 to 2400 fps, I like it a lott. I bet it really makes an impression when it hits meat. I would also, frankly, be tempted to rechamber to .404 Jeffrey.

Its never to early to plan ahead. Thanx to all for the help and good shooting...............Rick

On the other hand, I can only commend your idea to rebarrel for .404 Jeffery. With it you get pith helmet, large mustache and a pitcher of gin and tonics . I rate the Jeffery as a Class II. Just as deadly on game but a little easier on the hunter. You can't go wrong with either.

Sarge

The salesman told me they do a magnum LH action. They are a quality CRF long extractor rifle. Calibre of your choice and finished to London Best quality. The rifles I saw were priced at �2600 for a regular calibre (243 - 300) and the safari rifles they had on show were �4600 for a plain rifle to �11000 for a fancy engraved piece.
I woked the actions and they were slick.
Here is a link.

http://www.dumoulin-herstal.com/index.html

Regards

Todd E

quote:

---

Originally posted by bobby van der Putten:
Definitely a winner. My question is, did Jack Lott get the idea after a safari in Chad with Joel de Lamballerie as a PH, who was shooting .458 SMK ( k for Krasswsky )350 grains bullets, or did all these including the .458 Norma Special and the .450 Ackley Magnum happen to be developed at the same time by sheer luck ? Just curiosity as only the Lott reached glory.

---

Do you know the case that the 458 Norma special uses? Is it the 458 Norma cylindrical brass that Norma imported in the early 60"s or there about. I have a rifle that is stamped 458 Norma magnum. The camber as close as I could measure is about 2.92" brass length which might be a full length 458 Norma cylindrical brass untrimmed. I have never heard of the Norma special do you know the length of the special case and where I could look for information on the special cartridge?

One of the more significant aspects of the Lott is the straight taper case. When John designed the cartridge its ballistic equivalent already existed in the .450 Ackley. He avoided any shoulder so one could also chamber a .458 Win. in a pinch, and of course, you can. The win. is readily available in Africa should you become separated from your Lott ammo.

Steve

Do you reload? If so, you can get a little more velocity from the 450 Ackly, or you can get the same velocity as the Lott with less pressure.

I thought you might like to see a picture of my rifle. Though its not a 458 Lott, its pretty close � it�s a 450 Ackley. And it�s a leftie.

Fergus

------------------
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/fergus

I'm back "in-country" for a few days before heading back to Moz. I saw your post and thought I had to "say my say" about the Lott.

As you may recall, I had a Lott built as my back up rifle, it's on a BRNO 602 ZKK action, it has a synthetic stock for practical purposes and shoots like a dream (remember the swamp buff pics I sent you)

I have worked up a number of loads using Hornady softs, Swift A frames, Speer AGS solids and Hornady solids - all work just dandy and I can get 3 shots in one hole at 70m from the bench. I use PMP cylindrical brass (375H&H stock) which I get from a contact at Denel for ZAR 5.00 each, they do need a bit of trimming and flash hole de-burring but it still a bargain.

If I had to build my Lott all over again I'd go for heavier stock, mine weighs in a 8,5 lbs and does recoil some - 15 shots from the bench is about all I can manage before the groups gecome un-representative, shooting it in the veldt is no issue when the adrenalin takes over; but then again I carry it more than I shoot it so I'm happy for the weight/ recoil trade off.

------------------

Peter
www.shafa.net
Shafa Safaris

If you are interested, I can e-mail the notes I typed up for the guy I sold the gun to. I used RCBS 458 win mag dies, much less then the custom dies, and I never had a problem with them.

One word of caution on doing the gun inexspensively. Any nimrod can run a 458 lott reamer in a 458 win mag, and put a longer magazene on it. That does not a DGR make, and if you want a single shot 458 lott, then do it on a Ruger #1, at least you won't have any illusions about fast followups. A 458 lott that won't feed well is near useluss.

It was one of the most enjoyable rounds I've ever loaded for, most fun was 350 speers at 2400, quite accurate, and 375 levels of recoil.

500 yes I do reload. I only load a few cartridges because I have no interest in cranking out mass number's of standard cartridges. I dont bother loading 9mm, or 45, 38sp, or other rounds that I can buy cheaply in mass. This also includes stuff like 8X57, 7.62X39, and .223.

The rounds I do load for I create lovingly and one at a time. I load for .454 Casull, .338 Win, 3006, .450 Marlin, and I would dearly love to craft loads for an Africa stopping rifle. To me a "hot evening" is to spend about 6 hour's at my load desk creating "ballistic works of art". Yes, I am a perfectionist. When I go hunting I like knowing every intimate detail about my loads and my rifle. Reloading is the greatest ballistics education a hunter can get ; Also, I think the meat just plain taste's better when you get it with your own handloads.

Peter when I shoot from the bench I put on a "Past" recoil shoulder pad. It helps greatly and allow's me to maximize my quality bench time. I cant get to the range often so its important for me to be able to really shoot some number's when I do get there. Let me know if you want one of these Past pad's. I'll be in country next June and I can bring one over for you.

Paul thanks for the offer. Im at "vidcreate1@aol.com" if you dont mind sending me a copy. Are you still shooting a .450L ? What animals have you used it on and what bullets have you used ?

It would seem that a .458 that could send a 350grn bullet downrange at 2400 fps would be more versatile then many would give credit for. If , say, you had sable and a Buff left on your Tag you wouldnt be to out of line taking JUST the .458L, and leaving the 300 H&H in the tent.

I dont think "The society for the ethical killing of plains game" would file a complaint....:-).......Rick

Have the tracker carry the light while you pack the heavy. Carry the light in the soft case in the safari car while you hold the heavy. Whatever, always have them both with you. The worst of all possible worlds almost happened to me in Mozambique. I had the light and the heavy was back in the tent because were weren't going into the swamp where the buffalo "stayed." No, they don't! If the big, black S.O.B.'s want to come up to the edge, they come up to the edge. Shoot, it they want to come into the camp, I'll bet they come into the camp! Sure enough, while scouting the edge of the reeds for buck, we came across really BIG buffalo tracks. Fortunately, we never caught sight of them in spite of trying really hard. (Feller my age ought to know better!) I'd have felt a lot better with the heavy. So either only take something big enough to take on big game or carry that one but have a light nearby at all times.

Terry Wieland put it best. "Regardless of what game you're going after, when in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle." 'Nuff said.

Sarge

[This message has been edited by Oldsarge (edited 08-08-2001).]

I won't let go of my .470 Capstick until after the buff are on the ground. Then, I'll switch over to my 'light' rifle: the .375.

George
(a fellow lefty)

------------------
Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

Thanks for the feed back. I am pretty happy with the way it turned out. The barrel is 22� with a fairly heavy profile. With a recoil reducer in the butt, it balances excellently. It just hangs where I point it like a rock.

Geoff Slee, a Melbourne based full time stock maker, did the stock work. The rest of the work was done by Peter van Meures, who is in my opinion the best and most versatile gunsmith in Australia. I�m not going to let them know your thoughts though as their heads will swell up for sure and they might want to charge me more!

Fergus

------------------
http://www.angelfire.com/ab/fergus

------------------

I'll send it your way. I sold the 458 lott to finance the 500 Jeffrey, and now have any 458 in the works, but using a 2.5" 404 case.

I never got a chance to take any game with the lott. A buddy up here hunts moose with a 458 win mag, pushing the 350 speers ~2500, and he says the performance is impressive, as well I'd imagine it to be. My goal was to load the 350's to win mag speeds, for enjoyable target loads, and that they were.

As far as one gun and two loads, I personally am not sold on that idea. I think one gun should have one load, as the likelyness of having the wrong bullet at the most inopertune time is likely. I also had drastically different POI with the 350's and 500's, but that was based on that rifle, others might not be as finicky. It had a very slender barrel for a 45. The bullets I shot were 350 speer and hornady, and 500 hornady softs. I put a few 450 gr X's through it, but didn't have enough to dial in a load, nor the correct powder.

Even with a past pad, 500 gr loads off the bench will knock the snot out of you, been there, done that. The 350's are pusycat's, I burned 30 rds during a lunch time shooting session, no problem. I was never able to fire more then 10 rds of the 500's, one session ended after 7 rds.

My hunting loads are loaded with Speer 500 grain AGS soft points and solids at 2200 fps, using IMR 4320. I use the HDS .458 Lott brass for the solid load, and the Bell .458 Cylindrical for the soft point load. This allows me to use identical powder charges, and seat the base of the bullets to the same exact relative position in the cases. Otherwise, since the soft point is longer, you get more powder compression than with the solids. I don't know if this level of effort really matters, but my rifle will lay 3 soft points and 3 solids into one big approximately 1 inch hole at 100 yards. My full power practice loads use the Hornady 500 grain bullets that open the groups up to about 1-1/2 inch. I know that 2200 fps is a "mild" load for this case, but it is what shoots well in my gun, and is incidentally what Kevin "Doctari" Roberts recommends in his book "The Perfect Shot"

My rifle was built by Duane Wiebe and has a 24" barrel, a laminated stock, a Leupold 2.5 fixed power in Talley mounts, weighs just at 10 pounds loaded with five rounds and the scope, and is the best balanced rifle I have ever owned. Even though the gun was not made for me, it might as well have been in that it fits me perfectly. This rifle has convinced me that gun fit and balance has a lot to do with recoil management. While I would not class the recoil as light, the gun is very shootable, and since it balances so well, it carries like a gun that weighs much less.

I found my rifle new on consignment in a local gunshop, because the owner died two months after receiving it, and had never shot it. Since 99.9% of the guys around didn't know what it was, and the other 0.09% didn't know what to do with it, I was the lucky 0.01% that got one of the best deals I will ever get on a gun. Incidentally, I have now put about 500 rounds through the rifle in the seven months I've owned it, and other than having the original 1.75 X 5 Leupold go to pieces on me, the gun has shown no signs of distress.

For North American hunting loads, I load the 400 grain X-bullet at 2450 fps.

For cheap practice and plinking, I shoot the 400 grain Speer flat points at 2000 fps. By seating the Speers to the front canalure (sp?), I end up with slighly more case capacity than a .458 Winchester, and can use .458 Winchester loads for this bullet.

Since I am taking the rifle to Africa in less than a week, I will report back on field performance when I return, and hope to be able to post a picture of the rifle with its first Buffalo.

Sarge

Let there be meat on earth and let it begin with me.

You have had me intrigued for a longtime about the Class I, II, III, & IV. Is this something that you have come up with or is it from somewhere else? Can you list some of the common rounds in the III & IV. Thank you so very much for indulging me.

Class III DGRs start at the .458 Lott, go through the .458 Ackley, Rigby, and Dakota. The .470 Capstick qualifies and at the top are the .505 Gibbs and the .500 Jeffery. In double rifles, add the .500 NE. All these calibers have between 5500 and 6500 ft. lbs. at the muzzle and good frontal area. They are big enough to kill anything that has ever walked on the planet.

Class IV's have either more energy than that or fire a heavy bullet faster than I believe is optimum. 2400 fps ought to be enough for any thing. Higher than that and you risk over penetration with monolithic solids and inadequate penetration with softnose. You might not get either, but the risk is there. Additionally, they kick like Hell, but if you "really care to send the very best" you can start with the .416 Wby and go on up to the .460 Wby, .500 A-Square, .577 NE, .600 NE, .577 T-Rex and the much anticipated 1.008 Vincent.

This system is still evolving in my mind and on this forum and the HuntAmerica. Eventually I will write it up for some gun mag and let the fur fly!

Sarge

Thank you. Your system is quite interesting and seems to be well thought out. So well so, I don't think you could get an argument out of anyone. Although, you could get quite a lively discussion. It would seem to put rounds like the 458 Win. Mag., 470 Nitro Express, and the 416 Rigby in the Class II category. Would the 375 H&H be in the Class I?

Why did I choose the 458 Lott over the Jeffery?

I like to shoot a lot and the 500 components are more difficult to come by and much more expensive. The Bullets and Brass alone are a bigger expense.

The 458 Lott's I have borrowed to use and have seen used on game are quite impressive. They really have a serious effect on anything they hit. The Jeffery is better in my opinion, but when bullets are placed correctly I have not seen anything walk away from the Lott yet! I am not a fast follow up shot using the Lott but I am what I would call SLOW with a follow up using the Jeffery.

The jeffery being more powerful gives you a great first shot but the second and third are gonna take a while.

I would not even come close to passing the PH marksmenship test in the allowed 10 seconds using the 500 Jeffery cartridge. I would be able to with the 458 Lott (I'm pretty sure). I did pass it with the 375HH in 8 seconds. The Lott is slower to get back on target but I think the additional 2 seconds I had would be enough to make it. That is if I could hit the 4" square all three times!jj

------------------
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

What is the PH marksmanship test?

It is much harder then you think it might be especially when you have a crowd watching! The instructor says "GO" with the gun at your hip, the count does not start after the first shot is taken, it starts when he says go.

Once you do this a few dozen times it gets easier but you will find the value in CRF doing this regardless of what the Nay sayers will write here. When your under the time constraint operating a bolt rifle as fast as you can it will not always feed correctly all the time.

Of the people who had a mis feed all with Push feed rifles. There was not a single miss feed by anyone using a CRF rifle. Try shucking out cases and rechambering three times in 10 seconds with time for aiming and shooting in between add a crowd for a bit of "nerves" and your CRF provides another whole level of value!

What is the one thing while your doing this that you want to spend the most on
Your aim!

What is the one thing that takes the most time doing this?
Dropping the gun to cycle the action!

Where do you try to save time?
Cycling the action, and that is where you will screw up almost every time with a push feed!

most guys had a double feed (spent case and new round) at least one time during the testing. ALL of them said "I have never had this happen before" and always thought the push feed was just as good as CRF.

Folks have argued this for ages on Forum chat sites just like this one. I have read and looked over many of them. I'm not going to get in a debate over it. I'm just pointing out my first hand experience watching a few dozen guys with jammed or misfed rifles. That is plenty to convince me!jj

------------------
The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Sarge you speak wisely about the two rifles bit. I would never go that far to hunt and only have one rifle with me. This spring will be an exception as I will be handgun hunting as well as bringing my lever gun.Norbert I am starting to learn that this .458 Lott is a very versatile round. So many accomplished hunters have so much enthusiasm for it, frankly, the enthusiasm is infecting me.

Loud that was plain a good morning to wake up, the morning you found your rifle. Congrats, it sure sounds like a Dandy.

Sarge I have always considered the .416's , and , maybe, a .458 to me my limits with a big rifle. I dont really have a recoil problem but I think that recoil is a concern with any round that big, a DG rifle might as well be a big stick if you dont place the bullet right.

I supposed if I was always hunting DG, or was a PH, I might have a different outlook. I personaly find the .416's to be quite versatile and I think any hunter should give his .416 hunting time on THIS side of the pond as well. There is no practice as good as takeing the rifle out hunting ; Thast the best practice there is.

Thanks for all the info, this has been a very enlightening thread for me. I didnt realize there was this high a level of enthusiasm for the .458L.......good shooting......10

I can't speak for anyone but myself. The classifications you have come up with are most functional. I would love for you to post a complete listing for Class I, II, III, & IV. I know it is a lot of work for you, but what the heck someone else may enjoy it also.

It is interesting how you view Class III as probably the most useful stopping rounds (I agree) where Class IV is somewhat overkill (pun intended). I guess that in extreme situations, Class IV would be handy. Would a 50 BMG be a Class V? I realize that it would be impractical, but I am curious.

Sarge

I guess we are all different.

I hate those real straight stocks like the bottom rifle.

For heavy recoil I much prefer a stock that has the center of the butt well below the axis of the bore.

Mike

They look like great "working rifle's", the kind that fill my rack, I dont have any rifles for "looking at", tho I wish I did. Whats your favorite .404 load ?

good shooting...........10

I hope you are serious because I am looking forward to anything you share.