hi all ,
i have been thinking long and hard about the import ban - and the unintended consequences to large hunting blocks on the ground in a state of collapse because of this

i have also been thinking long and hard how for the last few years we as a community have been telling the world we don't just hunt for trophies but for the experience the camaraderie etc etc etc

so i ask - what is the problem -

if we truly hunt for the experience and the thrill of the chase and the camaraderie and the campfire etc etc then why are we allowing an import ban collapse the industry -

to be clear the import ban does NOT mean you can't hunt lion or elephant in Tanzania or Zimbabwe or any other place where they are open- it simply means all we can get out of it is all the things we have been saying drive us to hunt

the import ban has , sadly proved that beyond doubt for most hunters it is in fact all about the trophy and getting it home because if it wasn't about that people would still be hunting and the industry would not be collapsing in Tanzania !

its a very serious thing that CANNOT BE REVERSED when former game reserves set aside for hunting get redistributed to communities for settlement -

we all dig our heels in and say "we will not let the antis dictate to us" well then get out there , take a great cameraman , book yourself a lion or elephant hunt and lets revive this industry !

Whilst there has been a lull the American sportsmen are still hunting Lion in Zambia. To not take the trophy is totally the decision of an individual and no other.

My observations are that the prices for such species are in recession and these hunts are becoming more affordable.

The antis are under the impression that the ban is to have stopped hunting in Africa and this is far from the truth.

Ivan,

There are people who do hunt for trophies, and would like to have them back home for memories sake, at least.

And those of us who could not care less about trophies, will continue to hunt, come rain or high water.

The sad part is many people were hoping the new American government would be more friendly than the previous one.

That has not turned out as the case at all.

I 100% agree. I have done more elephant hunting since the ban for the very reasons you mention.

I do agree with your post and hope and do hope people continue to hunt these countries. But isn`t Tanzania also doing a lot to deter hunters with increasing costs and other difficulties for both operators and hunters alike. I do really fear for Tanzania as a hunting country if they don`t start making some good plans!!

Always appreciate your input Ivan!

I have to agree. A hunt is not about a trophy, and this may just be the tip of the iceberg, with regard to what will be allowed to be imported in the future.

I also agree that for some, the trophy is paramount. I don't see a solution for them. Perhaps taking up butterfly collecting.

I don't know to what what extent the import band is responsible for the slump in the industry.What may be turning people off too is the decline in a wild areas and wild game numbers.These two things are what I am seeking out with my funds.Unless you can provide wild areas full of game you not only will lose hunters but photo tourists as well.You can't take peoples money and give them nothing in return.You may be famous hunters and have cool english accents but that is not enough.I like to shoot too.I will travel across a country to be able to fire a few rounds in the open air with my rifle.I would like to do likewise in Africa.I can imagine not being able to do so there on safari without upsetting a game scout or some villagers nearby.

Since the ban I have hunted 3 ele and the 4th is booked. Hunting is totally about the experience for me...like Saeed...will hunt until I die.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Since the ban I have hunted 3 ele and the 4th is booked. Hunting is totally about the experience for me...like Saeed...will hunt until I die.

We don`t see eye to eye on everything, but we are in sync here

quote:

Originally posted by Svinejakt:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Since the ban I have hunted 3 ele and the 4th is booked. Hunting is totally about the experience for me...like Saeed...will hunt until I die.

We don`t see eye to eye on everything, but we are in sync here

In day to day life and thought processes...we are likely much more alike than dissimilar my friend.

Ivan, it isn't going to deter me at all. The only thing slowing me down is money!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Svinejakt:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Since the ban I have hunted 3 ele and the 4th is booked. Hunting is totally about the experience for me...like Saeed...will hunt until I die.

We don`t see eye to eye on everything, but we are in sync here

In day to day life and thought processes...we are likely much more alike than dissimilar my friend.

True

I am going Ele Hunting in a few day's. I postponed it because of the ban but why wait? It is exportable but if I can't bring it back it doesn't matter to me. That is not why I hunt.

I think the answer is actually very clear. If you are hunting for the experience and not the trophy why not just hunt a tuskless cow instead? They are aggressive, hard to find, it removes them from the breeding pool, and cost a small fraction of the price of an exportable trophy bull hunt.

A non trophy elephant is a non trophy elephant and until the price is the same, paying a premium for ivory you can't have doesn't make sense.

Just a comment nothing more.

I can understand and agree with everyones feelings concerning hunting.

With the attitude and desires of those wanting hunting stopped, how long will it be before they take notice and direct their attention at hunters going just to shoot something so they can say that shot it and have the pictures.

I hope everyone keeps going to Africa and hunting as long as they can, just ciurious as to how long it will be before anti's shift their focus.

While Ivan’s point is very true and well taken in the Macro sense, there are other simple realities.
1) Tanzania’s decline I believe is far more about them simply pricing themselves out of the market. Period.
One can hunt in zambia or Zimbabwe or the Caprivi etc for FAR less. Would I like to hunt the specialty plains game etc..absolutely..just not at their outrageously high prices of the last decade.
2)I think more operators should pivot to marketing “non trophy” elephant hunts (where you get the wonderful experience of the hunt and don’t take the ivory (at a correspondingly lower price). Obviously we al here see many of these great offers by many great outfitters.

3) psychology....most hunters do place high value on the experience itself, the camaraderie, etc BUT...there is certainly still high perceived value in the trophy itself. Especially and particularly on extreme high value species (high value both in real cost and perceived value) such as Elephant and Lion.
Thus...is very hard for most to “unbundle” the two. If the real cost were to go back down to a point where it doesn’t “sting so much”. This is OBVIOUSLY particularly true in Tanzania... there’s a direct correlation for the VAST majority of people

THe people who don’t care are three fold...
1) mostly people who already have numerous “trophies” thus having a second or third or fifth or twentyfifth trophy becomes less and less relevant
2) people’s whos disposable means are so great that the psychological unbundling effect between high price and psychological real and perceived value mean less (ie you get what you pay for) Particularly, for example on a trophy vs non trophy elephant hunt
3)people who indeed value the experience but are booking hunts such as Management or Non Trophy hunts that have a price that more closely correlates to the experience and value. Or..on Lion even like Andrew has done...sell a far more palatable daily rate and hunt and if you see a great Lion and want to pay a higher trophy fee...then you make that decision (far better perceived value)


So...simple suggestion (realizing the outfitters want and need revenue and have unfortunately locked in concession prices and bids reflecting a different market)
. Outfitters need to adjust their model more accordingly with the market (or pray for the few Russian and Spanish clients etc)
Tanzanian government needs to pivot in a macro level or face collapse..
Lion hunting either needs to come down to earth a bit on pricing or at th very least vastly restructure the daily rates to reflect the market where the emphasis is NOT on the trophy.
Even in Zim..a 21 day safari has roughly doubled or more over 10-15 years.

I am more than willing (and do) to hunt in Tanzania without shipping trophies home. I love the spirit of the chase and camaraderie developed with PH, trackers and staff. The opportunity to spend all day on a track of a cagey dugga boy. Being chased by an ele when in the truck, or a mock charge by a lion. All are fuel for the fire. I do wish the Tanzania Government would look at real economics and realize by lowering fees they would increase revenue by attracting more hunters. That would be good all around for the tourism industry.

Left the last set of ivory in Zim, and headed back in a week to do it again with expectations of leaving the ivory if successful. Good, framed photos and a video costs less, take up less wall space, and as Ruark said, allows you to "always recapture the day".

Having said that, its easier to feel that way when you have specimens of most the DG already imported. When the USFW first let it be known they were making a positive enhancement finding for Zim, bookings skyrocketed for elephant. The desire to physically possess some part of the trophy is very strong.

Very nice replicas can be had for elephant, rhino and hippo. Somebody probably does this already - but crack the nut on faux leopard and lion hides. Ones that could be customized to match the actual one taken, such as the mane, then mounted, and you'd have a life size representation without the hassle of dip and pack, imports, tanning, etc ....

Like many others, I agree 100% as well! I hunt for the adventure and experience. As time has progressed (in other words as I have aged), trophies and taxidermy are of less importance.

The import ban has only increased my hunting trips! The pursuit of the biggest trophy, the records books, etc. only exacerbate the problems we face as a hunting community! We MUST continue to hunt and patronize our African outfitters is they are to survive and their survival drives the survival of hunting in Africa!

quote:

Originally posted by nhoro:
Left the last set of ivory in Zim, and headed back in a week to do it again with expectations of leaving the ivory if successful. Good, framed photos and a video costs less, take up less wall space, and as Ruark said, allows you to "always recapture the day".

Having said that, its easier to feel that way when you have specimens of most the DG already imported. When the USFW first let it be known they were making a positive enhancement finding for Zim, bookings skyrocketed for elephant. The desire to physically possess some part of the trophy is very strong.

Very nice replicas can be had for elephant, rhino and hippo. Somebody probably does this already - but crack the nut on faux leopard and lion hides. Ones that could be customized to match the actual one taken, such as the mane, then mounted, and you'd have a life size representation without the hassle of dip and pack, imports, tanning, etc ....

Exactly!!! If they can 3D print a gun, any tusk or skull or horn should be easy!!

My last safari to Tanzania was in 2007. I have been on 10 safaris to other countries since them. I have been on who knows how many other hunts out of the country since then. Things like doves & ducks in Argentina, sheep in several places, ibex in Spain, New Zealand and on and on. This year we have doves & ducks in Argentina, buff and banteng in Australia, pronghorn in Colorado and Marco Polo in Tajikistan.

I am hunting a lot. Why won’t I go back to TZ ? It is not the ban. It is the sheer stupidity of the government there. The lion closure in 2006. The fee debacle in 2007. At some point, one has to say enough is enough.

Maybe they will wake up one day.

I've managed to do three elephant hunts. All were non trophy bull hunts. I'd like to do another but the ever increasing price of all elephant hunts have kept me on the sideline. I doubt I'll ever do another elephant hunt. My last such hunt was in 2013 will a well known outfitter/PH. The cost of that hunt was $12K. The last time I checked the price was $18K. I thought prices would come down when the import ban was announced but I haven't seen any reductions in either importable or non importable hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
My last safari to Tanzania was in 2007. I have been on 10 safaris to other countries since them. I have been on who knows how many other hunts out of the country since then. Things like doves & ducks in Argentina, sheep in several places, ibex in Spain, New Zealand and on and on. This year we have doves & ducks in Argentina, buff and banteng in Australia, pronghorn in Colorado and Marco Polo in Tajikistan.

I am hunting a lot. Why won’t I go back to TZ ? It is not the ban. It is the sheer stupidity of the government there. The lion closure in 2006. The fee debacle in 2007. At some point, one has to say enough is enough.

Maybe they will wake up one day.

The Tz government has repeatedly shown they are too stupid and greedy to EVER wake up. They HAVE gotten tired of shooting themselves in the foot, so now they just blow their whole leg off

Ivan,

In my experience and particularly when we talk lion and elephant which can be a one time only hunt for many the hunters want the trophy. There is something special about having that set of tusks or lion mount to touch and be whisked directly back to the hunt.
As has already been stated if you've hunted a lot, have many trophies and financial means it's much easier to return empty handed.
Personally I could leave trophies in Africa but my S.O. Sadie who is always involved in our financial decisions would not dream of it. The trophies and the taxidermy are extremely important to her.

Mark

Thanks for all the comments and perspective gents - all completely understandable -

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
My last safari to Tanzania was in 2007. I have been on 10 safaris to other countries since them. I have been on who knows how many other hunts out of the country since then. Things like doves & ducks in Argentina, sheep in several places, ibex in Spain, New Zealand and on and on. This year we have doves & ducks in Argentina, buff and banteng in Australia, pronghorn in Colorado and Marco Polo in Tajikistan.

I am hunting a lot. Why won’t I go back to TZ ? It is not the ban. It is the sheer stupidity of the government there. The lion closure in 2006. The fee debacle in 2007. At some point, one has to say enough is enough.

Maybe they will wake up one day.

The Tz government has repeatedly shown they are too stupid and greedy to EVER wake up. They HAVE gotten tired of shooting themselves in the foot, so now they just blow their whole leg off

Sort of agree with you

I'm fine, for the most part, with just bringing back photos and great memories, BUT with lion trophy fees in the stratosphere, I'm pretty sure the memories of my two previous lion hunts will suffice. For me it is less about the trophy ban, than the very high cost of many DG safaris.

I'm gonna bite the bullet (once) and take my son on a 10-day 2x1 safari to Tanzania. After that, I expect most safaris to be plains game and Buffalo, and to hunt in some of the less expensive countries I haven't visited where the experience is a great value at a much lower cost. I also want to enjoy another elephant hunt or two but where value can be found. I don't need another set of tusks, though I'd probably have a replica set made to the dimensions if I'm fortunate enough to take a nice bull. I don't need another elephant or lion to the point where I'd pay some of the ridiculously high prices some of these hunts are advertised at these days.

Upside is that prices stay down.
Also I have a pair of reproduction tusks and nobody can tell the difference. Repro tusks are cheap ($ 500) and look great.

I've got lots of trophies on the wall. I love looking at them and can remember each hunt. I love watching video of each hunt. You get the sounds and atmosphere of the hunt. So that is enough now; and I'm so sorry it puts the taxidermy business in jeopardy. The true artists.I no longer care if I bring trophies home, but if it were early on in my African hunting (actually anywhere)I would definitely want my taxidermy.

I hunt for the experience. I was prepared to leave 2 lions in Zambia, if I were a successful hunter. I'm in my element on the hunt. I'll hunt until I can't.

The options are becoming more limited and beauracracy more complicated and difficult to comply to.

Don't put off this amazing hunting experience. With or without trophies!

Best regards, D. Nelson of

Is it serious?
Yes and no.
I killed my first bull in 2011, and booked another bull in 2014. The ban was announced less than a week before my hunt. After agonizing a few days, I decided that the ivory wasn't the reason for the hunt, and shot a fine bull. I got very lucky, and got the ivory last year as I fell in the 30 day window the courts gave us.
I have hunted tuskless several times since, and will do so again in August.
Will I shoot another bull if I can't import it? Probably not. I don't do it for the ivory, but it's still part of the equation. I can hunt three tuskless for what a trophy bull costs.
I'd much rather hunt elephant than cats.

Of course I do it for the experience, so perhaps I am being inconsistent, but to quote Emerson, "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of the little mind."

Trophies dragging back into my cave is in my DNA
African hunts prices are big deterrent as well at times but I’m not done yet
Zim is still on radar soon and I’d love to do Mozambique combo with fishing in Indian Ocean
I do see anti coming after us and hen they figure we just shoot and leave trophies behind
After all they don’t care what we do, they just wanna ban it all, them silly bastards
So advice for all of us, don’t make any excuses and hunt and enjoy as Antis are coming after us no matter what...

I am headed back to Tanzania on a full bag in 19. I will shoot a mature lion if I have the opportunity. Dark Continent will be videoing my Safari so I will have good pics and videos for memories.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanajay:
I am headed back to Tanzania on a full bag in 19. I will shoot a mature lion if I have the opportunity. Dark Continent will be videoing my Safari so I will have good pics and videos for memories.

Good attitude

I want to bring my ivory back. Took one bull ele and one tuskless in 2012 in Zim and received the ivory. So, in April I'll hunt Zim and, if the ban is lifted, will bring back ivory, if not, then reproductions. It is the hunt and being successful on frontal brain shots. I don't want an animal to suffer needlessly. I do want my hippo ivory though and leopard as well.