What are the primary differences between the 458 Lott, and the 458 Winchester when it comes to putting big nasties on the ground?

The Lott is simply more powerfull by a good deal and the 458 Win. is prone to failure with factory ammo, however the 458 Win. with a proper handload is a workable 45 cal IMO....but it operates at higher pressure and has in the past and lately with the enhanced ammo caused some problems.

I guess my take on this is why mess with it, where there's smoke there's fire.

I can't compare the two from actual personal experience. I've shot one zebra, one hippo, and one cape buffalo with the .458 Winchester and I've never owned a .458 Lott. I do plan to have a Lott built in the near future. Jim Carmichel, who has a lot of experience with the .458 Winchester, has an article out on that cartridge in the current issue of "Outdoor Life", which is very interesting reading indeed.

My .458 was loaded with 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solids loaded to just under 2100 fps. when I hunted with it, and it gave plenty of penetration, but I wasn't exactly overwhelmed with the way animals reacted when hit.

Most of the guys I know with significate experience with the big .45s echo Ray's comments, and most feel as though killing power jumps to the next level when 500 gr. bullets get pushed to 2200 to 2300 fps., and I'm not about to argue with them. This is just the level of performance that the Lott was created for.

Here's a paradox when it comes to the .458 Winchester: Lots of experienced guys, including a lot of professional hunters, feel as though the .458 Winchester doesn't have the case capacity to achieve the sort of velocities necessary within reasonable pressure limits in order to achieve reliable penetration and killing power with 500 gr. bullets. On the other hand, you have these people who seem to think that the old .45-70 is just the berries for the same sort of use!

Go figure...........

AD

I toiled with this decision when I started building my DGR. I like the fact that the Lott can get the higher velocity with 500g bullets, and that in a pinch, one could shoot regular .458 rounds from a gun chambered for the Lott.

What I don't like, are the rumors of feeding problems with it. I'm not sure how true this is, but, in the two cases where people told me about it, they were shooting Mod 70's rechambered from .458 to Lott. It may be limited to this firearm, or it may be the gunsmith only reamed the barrel and did not do anything else to the gun, I don't know.

I decided to go with the .458, but used a 26" barrel to help squeek out a little more velocity. I think I should be able to get close to Lott type performance with this configuration.

Gentlemen:
This issue over the .458 Win. has raged for many years. I have had first hand conversations with cropping officers in South Africa, as well as Professional Hunters. I have set and pulled bullets from factory loads that had been around for some time and had to use a small screw driver to remove the caked powder from the case. This is what has been the culperit from the outset.
When the primer goes off only partial burning of the powder has time to burn before the bullet is started down the barrel. This leaves unburned powder to blow out the muzzle with sub velocities.
I have never have had these problems, as I always handloaded with stick powders and they do not clump as the ball powders do. I think Jim Carmicael has always used handloads and has never had seen the problems others complain about. he may even doubt that they ever existed. The longer case of the Lott, elevates this problem for the most part and lets us use some more reasonable powders. The extra length/space dosn't hurt anything either. If I were to use a .458 to day, I would use the Speer Tungston solid with a flat nose and shorter length. This will let you get 2200 fps according to the speer manuel and should work fine.
George

This is the age old debate between the .458Lott and the .458WinMag. It seems like some folks want to make the divide between the two cartridges a huge rift. I am not so sure the difference can be a make-or-break issue.

To narrow the debate down, does 100fps to 150fps make a HUGE difference in the field? After all, we are talking about a difference of 300ft/lbs to 700 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. There is no question that extra energy is a great thing - more IS better. But, I would not feel completely naked with a gun which generates 4700ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

Controversy has surrounded the .458WinMag for the reasons that Mr. Hoffman pointed out. However, the WinMag kills a lot of game animals each year with little difficulty. Good bullets and good shot placement make more of a difference than 150fps any day.

However, the Lott/WinMag debate will rage forever. That�s why I shoot a .450 Dakota! I deplore controversy.

The .45-70 crowd says the success of that cartridge is due to using very heavy, hard-cast bullets with wide, flat meplats. All we have to do is shoot them out of the .458 Winchester, and bingo another wonder caliber. <---humor

jim dodd

I consider the 458 win mag "just right" with good handloads and proper shot placement. I consider the 458 Lott "just in case" when the above is not the case!

I think the 458 Win/470/etc at 2100-2150 fps have marginal energy and penetration for the big stuff. I will be trying the Lott for the first time this year but from experienced reports it should be a significant improvement over the 458 Win.

For whatever reason...caking powder, etc....several knowledgable hunters (Sanchez and others) do not want to deal with the uncertainties.

And it is not just ball powders that cake and give widely varying velocities. Some 10 year old .375 H&H's I had loaded were giving velocities 500 to 600 fps in spread. I pulled all the bullets and found a significant number of them had caked powder (4350).

This probably points out, again, some of the problems with the 458 Win, i.e., using old cartridges, handloads or otherwise.

The plan is not to load any ammunition that is not going to be used within a couple years.

Will

Will,

What velocity with a 500 grain bullet do you intend to load the LOTT to? Also, what bullets do you plan on using?

Tim

Tim:

They're about 2310 to 2320 fps, with the AGS's, with a 22" barrel. What they will be in the hot African sun is anybody's guess.

Will

Will, Have you actually chrono'd the 500's over 2300fps? with a 22" barrel that is really fast! I have managed that with the 450X bullet with no problem but the 500's going over 2300 with room to spare in the hot sunny climate was not a reality for me. I did get 2350 with 500 grain bullets but the pressure, poor accuracy and the significantly increased recoil was not worth it especially when only at 40 deg F. When going to 90 or 100deg F I'm sure there would have been problems.

I know quite a lot of guys shooting the Lott in Africa and not too many get 2300 using a 24" barrel, darn few( actually none I know) have been loading to 2300 plus with a 22" barrel. You should count yourself as very lucky to have a 22" barrel that fast! I did find that my John Ricks built 458 Lott with the 450 X bullets at 2300 to be very comfortable to shoot with endless penetration and magnificent accuracy. There is also room to spare in the case with RL-7 powder so nothing is compressed. Good luck with your hunt.

I happen to be a firm believer in the use of 500 gr plus bullet weight at approx. 2400fps. With that said, I like 900 grs at 2400 fps even more! The power of a rifle is no substitute for proper shot placement as we all know, but I like to see the animal visably and decisively react to the shot. I dont have a Lott, but I do have a 450 Ackley and I have shot Buff with it. In my limited experience, I believe the Ackley is just that much more decisive than a .458 Win or a .416 Rigby for that matter. I have a M-70 that I built in 450 Ackley that is simply the most reliable and shootable gun that I can imagine ( Jhack will like it as it doesn't have a brake on it). With that said, I would not feel undergunned at all with a 458 win mag with good handloads. I've never really had much faith in factory loads in any caliber period and if I'm hunting dangerous game I like the comfort I feel using my own loads.-Rob

Allen, I think the .45/70 people just think that old cartridge will do the job and there's no real reason why it shouldn't with proper loading.