i am going on a 2 buff hunt, using my 505. i was thinking of taking along a 45-70 to test penetration in buff (after they are down, of course)
Plan would be to fire 5 rounds at the shoulder from 25 yards, 5 rounds at the rear end , aiming for the chest (to mimic going away shot) in each. This should give 10 shots in each presentation, a statistically appropriate number, I think
For the 45-70 experts, hers the question; what 45-70 ammo should i use? garrett? or use hard cast or steel jacketed handloads (at sane pressures and velocities? Any recommendations on loads?
From previous experience on elephant, I know I will get full pass through with 505 solids in both sideways and going away shots, so this should not interfere with the 45-70 test (much).(i use 540 gr GS custom solids over 111 gr RL 15, which gives me about 2300 fps) it certainly shouldnt interfere with the going away shot, and i will try not to smash the onside shoulder with the 505 side on shot. Cant say about the offside shoulder, of course, but that shouldnt affect the 45-70 test too much, as I doubt it will peentrate enough to get thruogh the offside shoulder)
Please,friends, this is not an attempt to re-ignite an old controversy, i merely want to get some objective data. So please try to stay on topic. thanks

I think it's an interesting idea. My suggestion would be to get Garrett ammo, try the 540 grain super hard cast and the 500 grain Exiter.

The reason I say get the Garrett is for a couple of reasons. I know Randy Garrett quite well, and have used his product. I've chronographed several of his different rounds and they test quite consistent. His ammo is readily available to everyone.

Yes, good handloads are great, but not everyone rolls their own....

I am sure it would be interesting but would destroy an awful lot of great buff meat that would wasted, unfortunately.

kayaker

Exactly what I was thinking.

Landrum

Is there a possibility that you could shoot a LIVE cow buff or two with the 45/70?

A second for the Garrett ammo as that is the brand that the 45/70 totes as the do all end all brand. If it takes a dump in testing perhaps we can bring them into the 21st century?

Why bother? We know the answer to the question.

Why don't you just shoot the buff with the 45-70 to start with? I have a 43" Buff on my wall that I took at an honest 100 yards with a Marlin GG using Garrett 540s. I hit the shoulder a little too far forward, but he was a three legged buffalo after that. Some members of this forum accused me of pulling a "stunt", and using an illegal underpowered rifle, but thankfully I shot him before I ever joined AR.

The easy answer is, because i know better.(have shot a lot of buff with different calibers,and have a lot of respect for them)
But truly, my intention is not to stir up a row.
I want to do a scientific test of penetration. this safari lets me do it. I want to give the 45-70 the best possible chance. Compared to the 505, of course. may not be a fair comparison, but maybe not. I just want some objective evidence.
So how about some recommended loads?
with regard to wasted meat, I dont believe the buff meat is utilized by humans where i am going.

Emron: I am a believer in first-hand science. Go for it. Just don't expect a reasonable reaction here, based on whatever facts you find.

For more than two decades Ed Ashby, an American who retired to Australia, has been testing arrow penetration and performance on African game, and for the past ten years or so, only on Asian Gaur (that are present in large numbers in Australia). You might want to visit tradgang.com to find out more about his test protocol. You'll also be able to reach him via E-mail or PM through the web site.

According to Mr. Ashby, Gaur are somewhat larger, with heavier bone structure than Cape Buffalo.

His research is archived on the web site and available for download.

Hope this helps.

I tried 45/70 level hard cast and softer cast hand loads out of my 458wm on an elephant head for a 45/70 afficianado.

The softer bullets disintegrated, the harder bullets broke up, and while I would never hunt an elephant with a 45/70, I think you'll find penetration of a hrad cast bullet on buff to be sufficient on the broadside tests. Looking forward to hearing how it works out.

JPK

I understand that penetration is an important facet of bullet performance, but permanent wound cavity is what kills animals. Will you be able to evaluate the amount of actual damage done inside the animal? There would be a world of difference in killing power in the following illustrations with similar penetration.





Source of ballistic gelatin drawings-
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

With a .458" bullet, penetration is all that is required, imo. Especially if the bullet is a large meplat flat nose.

I've killed four buff with .458" solids, three with round noses, one with a flat nose, Buff die quickly when hit well with a non expanding bullet which has adequate or more penetration.

One buff in particular is a good example, I was using 500gr round nose Woodleigh solids and shot it front on at 20yds and it spun 90* and ran. I put a second into its shoulder and it went down within 25yds. An insurance shot into the spine at the request of the PH and we approached. There was a 45 cal stream of blood squirting from the entrance hole from the first shot. The buff would have run but a few more yards without the second shot.

JPK

86thecat, you are absolutely correct about the permenant wound channel being very important IN SOFT SKINNED, LIGHTLY BONED (I.E HUMAN TYPE) animals. Death occurs due to blood loss, and the bigger the cavity the greater the blood loss.
In massively boned, thick skinned animals shot with a (relatively) smaller bullet compared to body mass, penetration becomes more important than permenant wound cavity. you HAVE to reach the vitals to cause enough damage to kill the animal relatively quickly. massive damage is a bonus, but you have to reach the vitals.
I dont think i can assess the degree of damage done by the lower velocity 45-70 bullets,in this proposed study, but i would be amazed if they did as much damage as a 505. Perhaps that will be the subject of a future safari!
In the present case, i just want to see if they really can penetrate through the skin, muscle and bone reliably, in a straight line, without breaking up or flattening.
Others with more experience (eg Ganyana) tell about how double lung hit buff with marginal calibers survive for hours; And I am talking about marginal rifle calibers eg 9.3x62 and such, not lower velocity rounds like the 45-70.

Emron and JPK, I understand what you're saying about penetration but a low velocity bullet destroys tissue along its path about equal to the diameter of its frontal area. A high velocity bullet, especially softpoint, will destroy a path of tissue many times wider than its frontal diameter. The wider path gives a much greater probability of destroying arteries and large sections of the lungs, heart, etc. I'm not saying high velocity makes up for bad shooting, but the larger wound channel destroying more tissue should kill quicker all other things being roughly equal.
I believe that's why impact velocity above 2000fps is important in most big game hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by 86thecat:
Emron and JPK, I understand what you're saying about penetration but a low velocity bullet destroys tissue along its path about equal to the diameter of its frontal area. A high velocity bullet, especially softpoint, will destroy a path of tissue many times wider than its frontal diameter. The wider path gives a much greater probability of destroying arteries and large sections of the lungs, heart, etc. I'm not saying high velocity makes up for bad shooting, but the larger wound channel destroying more tissue should kill quicker all other things being roughly equal.
I believe that's why impact velocity above 2000fps is important in most big game hunting.

What you write is true about expanding bullets leaving a wider wound channel, but it is rrelevant if the bullet does not reach the heart/lungs or maybe instead the liver. A 45/70 needs all of the penetration it can get. The formula for penetration is relatively heavy, flat nose, non expanding bullets as fast as you can push them without destroying them. The recipe for disaster is light bullets that expand, and so produce a shallower but wider wound channel, with insufficient penetration to at least reach the heart. (single lunged buff do not die quickly and may not die at all.)

A .458" hole through the heart and lungs will produce quick death (or even if the bullet produces only a slightly sub calibre hole, as some will argue is the case.) BTW, flat nose solids produce wider than calibre holes in my experience.

Just to give you an idea of how important penetration is on buff, and how marginal the 45/70 is, I've had .458" Woodleigh 500gr solids at 2050fps fail to exit on broadside shots with some high to low aspect.

JPK