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What are the reasons behind wounding (or bad shots in general)? This question is mainly directed to you PHs out there: You have seen many different hunters shooting good and bad shots. Would you say there are any common characteristics between those who kill and between those who fail? We all read about the need to practice shooting all the time and I say nothing against that, but is it really the only remedy for bad shots? Being a psychologist, I am very interested in the motivation to hunt and this question is trigged by that more general interest. So why, in your experience, do hunters shoot bad shots? Now I understand that you might hesitate to post anything negative about clients and customers here, even if they can not be identified from your post. If you feel that you have information you want to share but hesitate to post in public, please send me a PM here or send a mail to: martin@psychology.se. I will of course guarantee your anonymity in that case. Regards, Martin [also cross-posted in Big Game Hunting] ----------------------- A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition. - R. Kipling | ||
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I am not a PH so am a long way from the type of person you want to hear from. However, there is a passage in Ortega y Gasset's "Meditations on Hunting" which you may also want to consider in your analysis. I don't have the book in front of me but there is a passage in which he states that sometimes, at the moment of making the decision to pull the trigger, or release the bow, there is regret, or second thought, about taking life. I believe even a very good, well trained hunter and an accurate shot, may also feel this sometimes unconscious tug. I don't think it has ever affected my shooting (and I certainly wouldn't use it as an excuse for a bad shot) but when thinking about the reasons for bad shots perhaps it should not be ignored. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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I propably do not have the answers you are looking for, but this is my take on it. Sometimes they are just too exited. Sometimes, they know they are not ready for the shot, but after all the effort that has been put into setting them up for a shot, you might feel obliged to sqeeze one off. In circumstances like that, relax, and re-aim from the beginning. Also, unfamiliarity of the rifle do play the biggest role IMO. (Not only the rifle, but the whole experience.) Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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I second the vote for "excitement" being a culprit. After a long stalk on a bull eland, I jerked the trigger so hard that the bbl of my .416 literally jumped off the rest I was using. I have never flinched like that in my life and it was VERY obviously a flinch because (also due to my excitement) I had forgotten to click off the safety.  The PH calmly whispered, "don't flinch, squeeze the trigger!". I did just that, after clicking off the safety of course, and shot that bull straight through the top of the heart. NERVES are the enemy!JMHO, John | |||
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I am not a PH, but I have seen a lot of misses and wounded shots (mine and others). I think the main culprit is lack of mental and physical preparation. This means lack of time spent shooting at the range in various positions and off sticks. The PH we used in RSA suggested that we run in place, do push ups and get winded, then try to shoot to simulate being excited. It worked for us and we (my family of 3 other shooters) have yet to miss or wound any African game - we have taken 40 animals to date. Preparation is the key for us. | |||
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On two ocasions I had hunters with bad shots. The first time the hunter was a good marksman and he took a Impala out of the fist. The next day we found a nice ram, he sat down , took aim and after the shot the Impala jumped away. On close examination he hit a sickle bush branch that deflected the bullet, luckily the animal was not wounded. The second hunter did not take my advise. I always give hunters a briefing before we go out in the bush on shot placement and we work through the perfect shot. I always recomend a heart lung shot. In this hunt the hunter decided to go for neck shots. He wounded 2 Impalas. In both instances we tracked the animals untill they ran into the mountains, never to be seen again. I think some hunters heard or have a specific idea how they want to hunt a animal, you also get what we call bok koors - buck fever. The adrenilin rush 9 bok koors) has also got a lot to do with bad shot placement. In the bush a lot of things can go wrong, just the fact that a ph and a tracker is present can upset a hunter, he wants to prove he is a good shot and then foul it up. I have seen this with many resident hunters. Life is how you spend the time between hunting trips. Through Responsible Sustainable hunting we serve Conservation. Outfitter permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/73984 PH permit no. Limpopo ZA/LP/81197 Jaco Human SA Hunting Experience jacohu@mweb.co.za www.sahuntexp.com | |||
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I am not a PH, but bow-shooting taught me something. When shooting a bow at range, it’s easy to note how inaccurate one can be when tired or upset. One can apply this concept to rifle hunting as well. In my humble experience (rifle+bow) tiredness and nervous exhaustion are evident culprits. Exhaustion may come from jetlag, travelling, excess of booze, lack of sleep, drugs, hot night... and more surely from excessive heat and too long stalking or rough terrain. You overdo the hunt. When time has come to shoot, either your body is not capable or you lack stamina or you lack will to shoot, or the doubt slyly takes You over. Consider 2 sides : the real physical inability or the psychological felt inferiority. MHO. J B de Runz Be careful when blindly following the masses ... generally the "m" is silent | |||
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For me and my missed shots this is the way it usually goes, though I am striving to continually get better;you see the animal, you set up the sticks and by now your heart is racing and the sights are all over the place. If I don't stop regroup and take a deep breath you will likely miss. So I do think it is a bit of that buck fever. Secondly, something I have thought about for some time, is that many US hunters east of the Mississippi hunt almost exclusively from a stand weather on the ground or tree or tripod. And therefore we are accustomed to shooting from a dead rest. When required to shoot from a "field" position we can have troubles. And as much as we practice shooting targets from different field positions, it does not take the place of firing at game animals. Thirdly; we lay down our money for a hunting trip and right away we need a new rifle. We practice with it, but again the confidence in your new weapon is not there until you are able to take some game with it. Thems my thoughts, BigBullet BigBullet "Half the FUN of the travel is the esthetic of LOSTNESS" Ray Bradbury https://www.facebook.com/Natal...443607135825/?ref=hl | |||
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Good question, Martin, I'm with Karl and John. Even if ou are not on DGH, but in any case if you are on your first Safari or on your first hunting trip, the pressure/stress/anxiety/excitement or however you wish to define your personal situation or your sensations, this generally speaking is the problem. I saw friends making sensational errors during roe deer hunting trips, one of them was so excited (anxious/stressed and under pressure) that in a disastrous trip in Hungary shot a roe deer so much times that the truck rang like it had mounted a million of little rings. There were 20 or maybe 30 cases on the floor of the back of the UAZ truck. And he did not stopped in the following days ..... he was like a violin cord. His rifle was perfect, he wasn't. The same, told me that he did not understand the "don't shoot" of his PH in Zimbabwe and put down a very young kudu. While he was saying this to me there were a ligh rebuke in hos voice, because I was not with him in Zimbabwe. Except these kind of facts is pure misfortune, a mix of contrary facts that make you call the medicine man to fight against these ghosts and to exorcize you and your equipment.  .As Italian, even if I'm not superstitious, I have a good number of Formulas against misfortune. Make me know if you need some  bye Stefano Waidmannsheil | |||
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I do the bulk of my hunting by myself and very rarely miss or wound animals. I've had two major misses on guided hunts, one on a bear and one on a coues deer. In both cases the shots were relatively easy, but I had a very excited guide next to me saying "shoot, shoot, shoot!" I think a lot of people get nervous when they have someone, especially a professional, standing next to them trying to get them to hurry a shot. I would guess it's another form of "performance anxiety." | |||
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This is my greatest fear. I do much better when I'm alone as there is no one to think/say I'm taking too long to set up, etc. Also, it is a little like the times I go to the range where, in my area, the .300WM I'm shooting is a little larger calibre than usual. On my own or with a couple of other shooters, no problem, but if there are a bunch of guys there that day, it is a gathering to see the "small girl" shoot the big rifle. Too much of an audience can be a little nerve racking at times. Also, while I appreciate and love being a woman, when it comes to my shooting/hunting, I want to be judged as a shooter/hunter, not on gender. I think I should be required to meet or exceed the standards for any other shooter/hunter, male or female. There is also the pressure of you know your PH, friend, etc. really wants you to get great animals when they are presented and letting them down can make me a little nervous also. JMO | |||
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Nerves are always an issue but also follow through. I have found myself so anxious to see the animals reaction that I lifted my cheek from the stock at the moment of the shot. I have not had serious problems from this but have noticed slight deviations from intended shot placement. | |||
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Too much gun. | |||
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In my experience, wounded animals result from the same causes as misses. Most often, for me, the causes of wounded animals and misses both have been errors in estimating range and bullet deflections caused by intervening brush. One can learn, over time, to gauge distance, and laser rangefinders have made that process easier. But intervening brush sometimes simply can't be seen and is always more or less of a risk, except in wide open country. Another cause of my wounding or missing game animals has been the taking of risky shots. Sometimes it is very tough, in the heat of the moment, to assess how truly risky a shot may be. How bad is the wind? Is it gusting? How far is my self-imposed limit compared to the shot offered? Is there too much brush between me and my quarry? And of course, one must always resist the natural human tendency to want to take the shot. IMO, a hunter needs to carefully review every shot that he fires--especially those taken under less than ideal circumstances--both before shooting and afterwards. This is true whether the shot results in a clean kill, or a wounded animal, or a miss. Deciding when to shoot and when to hold your fire is a learning process and the only teacher is experience. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I am not a PH, but I have been on a few African hunts, both as a hunter and as a non-hunter. My own misses and the misses I've seen others make can be laid to several causes: 1. They (I) shot too quickly without properly aiming. 2. They (I) jerked the trigger in the heat of excitement. 3 They (I) flinched. The only way to learn if you are doing this is to pull a trigger on an empty chamber without knowing it is empty. Those of us who shoot a lot eventually will be guilty of flinching. Anyone who says he hasn't flinched hasn't shot enough. The only way I've found to cure flinching is to switch to smaller calibers and lighter bullets. Shooting a big boomer more does not work. A wounded animal, given an appropriate bullet, velocity and distance, is only an unlucky victim of someone's miss. BillQ | |||
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Animal moves while in your last stage of trigger pull,or you rush off the shot before he enters the bush. | |||
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How about another perfesser/P-sykolujist's view point? I think we have some good ideas here: -Nervousness due to new situations, first shot of the season, too many onlookers. -Unfamiliarity with equipment/game/area. -Buck fever, as differentiated from nervousness. -Fear...of not getting game and the subconsciouse thought of "what will my friends say?" My own big problem was a long career with the .308 over long distances, then using flat shooting cartridges for hunting, with the resultant "over the back" shots. Haven't shot my .308 now in years, but the habits ingrained over three decades still sometimes come out.  Now, Marterius, how about I'll show you one of mine if you'll show me one of yours? Patients that is. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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I think misses fall into two categories. Physical and mental. Physical like being out of shape, not familiar with the gun, not having practiced, not having the skill to pull it off. The tree limb in the way, the animal moving at the time of the shot. The wind gusting. Too tired from an extended physical hunt, too much alcohol, sick. Mental being the adrenaline rush, that tells your body to hurry, hurry, hurry. Tells your finger to jerk/flinch. Maybe as mentioned above tells yourself that you really don't want to kill the critter. I have seen it quite a bit in archery where an archer can drill the crap out of targets, but they do not have the mental edge to kill an animal. What I have found that works extremely well for me is to take that mental pause. It is probably only a split second, but that is enough to have been pretty consistent. I know when guiding/coaching someone through a shot. It is beneficial to talk them through it. Be patient, Safety off? Everything's OK, squeeze the trigger, sqeeze the trigger. Are your ready? Do you have a good shot? Go ahead and squeeze the trigger. This has worked wonders with friends and family when the actual moment of truth arrives. It works much better than SHOOT, HURRY UP, HE'S GETTING AWAY. | |||
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I am a PH and my advise to any hunter is to get into position quickly (into shooting position looking over your scope at the animal) and then pick your target look through your scope and take your time with the shot. To many hunters are woried about whether the animal is 100 or 110 yard away. They take out their range finder or bino and by the time they decide to take the animal, it is moving off and they make a hasty shot. A bino is to scan the bush and for the PH to assess trophy quality, the hunter can assess the trophy through his scope and be ready for the shot if the trophy is good. This way he saves time and unnessisary moovement and he will feel better and calmer when making the shot.. Wimpie Africa is the place to be. | |||
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MR really summed up the reasons I have missed or made less than a stellar shot. One of my worst misses was caused by changing my zero distance after arriving in Africa. My ph commented after our misadventure that changing that distance had been a poor idea. Kudude | |||
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I'm a little surprised by the answers above. We hunt with 100 to 200 clients per year and at least in our business there is absolutely no question that the primary cause of missing/wounding is LACK OF PRACTICE!!!!! To lead into a hunt we'll often make conversation by asking if the clients have been hunting or shooting much since we last saw them. All too commonly the answer is that they haven't shot since their last hunt... 6 months or a year ago. Of the more serious shooters we see; all too many of them practice EXCLUSIVELY from the bench rest... essentially ONLY testing the equipment and not helping their field skills in the least. I just guided a group of three hunters with all custom guns and tons of gadgets who shoot a lot but admitted rarely if ever shooting away from the benchrest. I've also had clients that until the hunt had NEVER fired a rifle that wasn't on sand bags. The world is a very different place away from the bench. Our hunts are much cheaper than most big game hunts and infinitely less expensive than most safaris so I'm sure we don't get the average hunter. Many of our clients do a wild boar hunt on a lark with their friends so many of them aren't what you could call serious or even regular hunters. Quite often clients are so unfamiliar with their rifles that they need help loading and unloading them. Nervousness, excitement, impatient guides, being tired, moving game, low light, etc., etc. all play a part in missing or wounding but the more someone has practiced the less those variables will effect a given shot. Kyler | |||
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It was interesting to watch the Biathlon. A number of times a shooter would pause in the middle of their 5 shot string ,calm down, take a breath , then continue. Better that than lose a shot but the commentators didn't seem to understand. ...As for guided hunts I see on TV all to often I see the guide engaged in continuous chatter, all uneccessary and to me very distracting and irritating ! | |||
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Sometimes it's the PH's fault. I observed a couple of times PHs forcing the client (even me) to shoot through grass or branches. I observed too a PH estimating the game at 200 yards when at 300. Wind gusting is a reality as well. I wounded stag twice in Scotland ; not the case in Africa, not enough wind?????? J B de Runz Be careful when blindly following the masses ... generally the "m" is silent | |||
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Looking over two safaris and a slew of other hunts, these things stick out in my mind... 1. Humility is the name of the game... 2. Practice and stay focused...know your rifle... 3. Don't make excuses...Shoot when comfortable.. 4. Only shoot at distances you can handle.. Mike | |||
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Kyler is the fault of all my misses  Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Reasons for wounding = bad shooting. No need to write a thesis on it. | |||
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I agree with most that has been posted before and yes Nitrox... Bad shooting is to blame but I think the reasons for bad shooting while hunting are the lack of; 1. Practice(hunting positions, know your weapon, etc.) 2. Nerves (Take a second to calm down) 3. Fitness 4. The desire to KILL the animal in the scope/sights(OK, sounds stupid and might not be a problem for more experienced hunters but definitely for some beginners. Your purpose needs to be to kill the animal. If that isn't your goal bad shots are inevitable.) 5. Appropriate equipment. | |||
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Mike, I don't recall you missing when you've hunted with me. But I'm sure if you do it WILL be completely my fault. Bulldog, You make a great point with #4. I've even seen a few more seasoned hunters that haven't dealt with the killing part of hunting. Kyler | |||
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There are lots of guys who are good shots from a bench rest but are not so good from shooting positions, especially after a few hours of rapid walking. Probably more practice from field positions is necessary, together with improved physical fitness. | |||
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Bulldog is right on the money. | |||
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Wink: One of the reasons that I "haunt' this forum is because I can read posts like yours. I had not been aware of Ortega y Gasset's writing on this. I intend to read him now. All my life as a hunter (and I'm 75) I always experienced momentary regret on looking at my "kill". It is interesting to read that a thoughtful writer is suggesting that somehow and subconsciously, I was already regretting ths shot, even before I made it. | |||
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Thanks a lot for your inputs! I am sorry I have not been commenting more in this thread but I have been a bit tight on time. I have printed it now. Wink, I am a great fan of Ortega y Gasset and I have also been writing about his thoughts. I am at the moment fascinated by his statement "we do not really know what an animal is". That is one of the points where his existentialism really is shown in the book and there are lot of implications; not only philosophical but practical. Regards, Martin ----------------------- A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition. - R. Kipling | |||
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MONEY Receiving rifle before and after the hunts I hear many stories. The worse stories are those of hunters buying more rifle then they can handle. The other is the lack of practice posted. Building 450 and 500 Nitro rifle and many others, I can tell the one that will not hit and those who will kill the trophy of a life time. It all goes back to the emails before the hunt. The person that orders the rifle and custom ammo; and then practice shooting and needs more ammo is the one that will succeed. The guy who asks how much each case cost and orders 5 for practice and 20 to hunt is in trouble. Have learned the adding of a muzzle break to some of the rifles allows the shooter to practice more and learn the rifle. There is the lucky shooter that buys a rifle and ammo to make a perfect shot and has never fired the rifle until the time of hunt. Most of the hunters I see before the hunt are the serious hunters and want the best set up possible for the hunt taken. The ones who call after the hunt have missed and wonder why the guide gave them my card. SO “Money†Being too tight to spend money on ammo and practice time. The inability to take time off work to practice shooting. We all know it is practice, I just figured a new turn. Building Dreams, What's yours? | |||
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+1 on that. | |||
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It is funny that I am actually planning my first "guided" hunt this year and actually had a dream where I told the faceless PH to "shut the *#@% up so I can think" and then being mortified. Only time will tell! | |||
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Show my .30-06 an impala and the bullet WILL find a branch/twig to deflect. Show my .30-06 a black backed jackal and the bullet will miss one inch high. Other than that realistically there are a plethora of reasons. In my experience, trying to shoot after running, not using a proper rest, crosswind or high hold misestimation on a real long shot, the animal bolting just as you squeeze the round off, jerking the trigger instead of squeezing, too high a scope power setting in low light condition and when I used iron sights, rushing the sight picture for lack of a better description. The one thing that won't cause a miss is that I am all but totally deaf to a PH saying, "you must shoot now!". | |||
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Kyler, Regarding lack of practice as a reason for missing, that might be a often observed cause as seen by ph's; however, on this forum many of the posters are gun-nuts, who shoot a great deal. Some of them may not log enough time shooting from "hunting" positions, but many of us practice from the many positions that you must use afield, and off sticks. I personally like to log at least a box or two of 22LR at steel silhouetes at the end of every visit to the range in the work up to a hunt. This is all off-hand from 100yds to 50yds, and after shooting my heavy hunting rifles. When I finally let myself use sticks or a rest, it is like shooting fish in a barrel! I find that the more I have hunted, the issues of "killing" have faded from my thoughts as I get on a target in the field. I am focused on the issues related to the shot, range, wind, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger control. When I don't hit well, I am surprised. If I miss, I am shocked. Post-shot analysis is immeidate. If I sense the bullet, I make the appropriate adjustment and fire again. I have found that range estimateion failures are the primary cause for misses and poor hits, followed by intervening objects deflecting the bullet, failing to read the wind, and taking high risk shots are at the top of the reasons of my misses/poor shots. There was a thread on binoculars on this forum recently in which a number of posters said that they leave the binoc in the truck on stalk and once in position do their observations through their scope. I think there is merit to this because the hunter needs to be setting up while his/her ph is glassing in order to be ready if/when the ph points out the right animal. As soon as the ph and hunter are clear on the identification of the animal, the hunter should confirm the range to the target with the ph (it is hard to judge distance in a scope), ask for wind dope, and shoot. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a hunter delay and the animal move further away or turn and make the shot more difficult or impossible. Kudude | |||
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Aspect. Taking a frontal chest shot is often asking for a problem. You need to puncture the heart or BOTH lungs. From the front, you often puncture just one lung. Bullet can also be deflected by breast bone. Moving/Running Game. 99% of riflemen can't make this shot reliably. Poor bullet/caliber combination. High velocity calibers at short range are bad news unless the bullet is very tough ...they don't penetrate. And the opposite....tough bullets in a rifle with modest velocity esp at longer ranges, don't expand at all. Trigger pull. A hard or creepy pull makes flinching or pulling the shot much more likely. Your trigger is more important than your barrel or your scope, in field situations. Shooting offhand. Not advisable unless very close. Sticks better. Sitting best. (I don't like kneeling personally because I find it's not nearly as steady as sitting unless you also use your guides shoulder or a tree). Shooting at the whole animal. Pick a minute spot and shoot for that. If your sight picture is traversing large amounts of the animal's body, you are not going to kill it. And of course all the posts about practice, not letting someone else pressure you into shooting when you aren't comfortable, going with someone else's range estimate rather than your own... Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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