The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Donated hunts and those that exploit them!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Donated hunts and those that exploit them! | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
AR has many post about bad operators and PH's but I thought it only fair to share my experience with a donated cull Ele hunt sold by Anchorage SCI this last February and the HUNTER that purchased it. I am doing this so some readers here may gain an inkling of what it takes to deal with the public and provide good african hunts. We gave Anchorage SCI a cull bull ele hunt for 2018, the donation was for 5 full days of hunting for one "cull", "own use" or "ration animal". We gave the daily rate and the hunter was to pay a kill fee of $8500 on success. It was a hell of a deal and sold for a decent price in the auction, it was still after all an ele hunt where you would be close enough to smell the peanuts when the shot was taken given the terrain at Sij and Chete. The purchaser contacted me and at that time expressed his desire to take the big five with his bow. I responded by stating that sure the hunt could be done with archery gear (see my web site we have taken some excellent archery bulls) but that we follow All ZPWMA rules and that all hunts are done in the company of a ZPWMA Game Warden and ALL hunts are filmed to verify legality of gear and that a cull is taken NOT a trophy bull. The purchaser seemed delighted so I continued and told him that if he was serious that he should add 5 additional days of hunting, after all Sijarira and Chete are thick and to think a bull could be found with a bow in 5 days was not realistic. Now we started to go south when told it might cost extra $$ and I asked him if prior to buying the hunt he had googled the ZPWMA rules concerning elephant hunting with a bow?? The answer was of course NO so now were headed down hill at a rapid rate with this guy. I told him first about the ZPWMA bow fee of $1500 which he seemed to think I was making up, then I told him about the energy requirements for the bow itself which he again seemed to disbelieve. He then went back to the hunting days needed and flat out stated he had been hunting in the RSA and didn't understand why he would need any extra days to be successful, according to him elephants were just standing around where he hunted and he saw no reason for any extra days and felt 1 or 2 days should do the job if a decent PH was used. I about S**T myself at this point and did everything in my power to explain and show him the reality of these hunts and showed him how to see the area on Google Earth. We spoke for a little concerning other game and he told me he would get back to me, it never happened. Instead he waited until 2 weeks ago and asked his CC company to refund the money stating to them that he had traveled to Zim with his bow and that he was turned away despite being told he could do the hunt prior to traveling to Zimbabwe. ALL FRAUD and keep in mind the reason these hunts exist is to help replace the lost meat NOT being given to ZPWMA rangers and locals through trophy hunts now a thing of the past in most part. When I first started many donated hunts brought more than retail which is what should happen these are after all fund raisers for a group we supposedly support but to me it seems in many cases a way for unscrupulous individuals to string cheap hunts together. Sure I have seen many PH scams concerning donations where an inflated price list is provided for a donated hunt but I don't do that and felt this was worth sharing. This is a tough business and it is a dying sport so individuals like this guy should be exposed and banned from events like these in my opinion. IN closing I have informed Anchorage SCI I was reselling it and if ANY AR reader wants the hunt and would like to help out the locals from Binga and Chete proper by feeding them for a month I will sell the hunt for $8500 with no additional fees or charges guaranteed. You will need to get to the Sijarira Camp either by road or charter your choice but once there the hunt is all in. SafariSean -TheSafariConnection.com SAFARISEAN | ||
|
| One of Us |
Buyer's remorse is pretty prevalent at a lot of the banquets. Have another drink and impress the crowd with how much you can afford to spend. Guns and hunting | |||
|
| One of Us |
The SCI donated hunts have always been a little controversial. Some PHs use donated hunts to "buy" credibility. Some even use it to "buy" special recognition within SCI. On the flip side, I know quite a few experienced hunters who troll for SCI hunting deals. Can't blame them at all. And there are certainly those clients who couldn't afford to go otherwise and every penny counts. Unfortunately, many of these hunters are clueless of the true and hidden costs of hunts. Not their fault, and I am sure it's quite frustrating for the PH/Outfitter. But you get what you pay for AND you get what you sell for... ___________________ Just Remember, We ALL Told You So. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well, if you had a copy of emails or some solid documentation I would give it to the CC company and tell them it obviously wasn’t fraud. If you did it on the phone without some sort of acknowledgement from him, yeah your probably SOL. Personally, I dislike how the auctioning body absolutely takes no responsibility either way in these things. If the group (SCI Anchorage) had to make good the real if it wasn’t as agreed or received, there would be more concerns for the ethics of the situation. | |||
|
| One of Us |
$8500 total cost? Plus transfer? 5 Days? White Mountains Arizona | |||
|
| Administrator |
I understand this is the amount the client would pay IF he kills an elephant. Daily rates were included in the donated hunt. And frankly, this is another silly point of those "donated" hunts. I bet the daily rates for 5 days was lower than the "trophy" fee the client is required to pay. And if this was a cull hunt, why is there a kill fee? | |||
|
One of Us |
My first two safaris were donated hunts that included daily rates and some animals. Each one, I added other animals and added my father to the one that only included daily rates for one Hunter. I must say I probably came out ahead in the end, but also made sure the outfitter was able to pocket some cash in the end. I ate the cost of a third that was daily rates for 4 hunters, but no trophy fees. It was a silent auction hunt and I didn’t check the website for trophy fees prior to bidding. Well, after I had “won” I checked and the trophy fees were nearly double the market rate. Oh well, I appreciate the Outfitters who donate the hunts. We donate a number of Argentina birds hunts that are all inclusive but the shells. The shells are not marked up from “paid” hunters. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
|
| One of Us |
Actually our posted rates for hunting Lion and Elephant are $2000.00 a day so the daily rate is of higher value. The price charged for bull Elephant quota by ZPWMA is $12,500.00. This $8500.00 trophy fee is a REDUCED price cull bull permit with the SOLE goal of raising some money for Zim parks to off set the loss of American $$$ that once came into ZIM from the sale of trophy exportable Bull elephants and to provide some protein for the ZPWMA staff and locals which again they are not getting due to the ban. We as a company are making ZERO $$ from these 3 hunts ( 2 sold and booked) and we are as a MATTER OF FACT doing these hunts at a LOSS period. We are using either a charter by ground or air for transport to camp and we receive no commission from those service providers. I feel these hunts were a heck of a deal for anyone wanting to shoot an elephant and that would be happy with a set of repos or none at all. I did not donate these hunts expecting or requiring any $$ return and would be fully satisfied with a hunter coming in and not spending a single nickel beyond the tfee to parks. Would it be nice to have the hunter add a few hunting days YES of course!! And did other hunters add days and trophies to these hunts yes of they did. I also allowed every winner of these hunts to take any other game on the 5 days of credited daily rates once the deed was done on the communal ele with the exception of a lion. If you shoot a cull bull first day and we have a buffalo, croc, hippo, leopard or any plains game quota available please hunt away!!! NO extra days required, this is and was a good faith donation and I offer no other kind!! I would be glad to have a happy client and good reference!! CALL me SafariSean anytime 816-697-3281 about our Chete, Sijarira and Gwiaa Forrest Hunts.. SAFARISEAN | |||
|
| One of Us |
It's a shame someone couldn't get their head straight on what would have been a very GOOD deal on a Management Bull (Ration..whatever) Elephant Hunt Out of curiosity now...what did the donation part of it go for Sean? Most of us would be very happy to pick up an elephant hunt like that. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I thought he was offering this for $8500 kill fee. Am I wrong? Thats why I asked if there was ANY other fees. Take the place of the already donated hunt that hunter backed out of. Is this correct? White Mountains Arizona | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have bought several hunts at benefit auctions, and had a great time on all of them. Unfortunately I'm getting too old to do the really physical hunts. I guess I'll have to find something else to spend my money on.  Most of my money I spent on hunting and fishing. The rest I just wasted | |||
|
One of Us |
Hi Safari Sean. You are absolutely correct in stating that a dangerous game bow hunting permit does cost $1500. But FYI they haven’t been issuing permits to hunt buff, elephant and lion with a bow this yr. Guys have been getting for leopard though. Also FYI it’s illegal to hunt with a bow in a Nat Parks “Safari Area” like Chete and that’s always been the case. Perhaps you got special permission or rules have changed that I may not be aware of. Cheers for now | |||
|
| One of Us |
Well that's interesting White Mountains Arizona | |||
|
| One of Us |
Thierry- I was wondering he same thing? | |||
|
| Administrator |
Would be interesting to get an answer regarding this after what Theiry and Buzz have posted. It could be totally out of the company's hands to conduct bow hunts there as requested. | |||
|
One of Us |
I am confused. The operator does not know the law? Sounds like he is then selling an expensive walk. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
|
| One of Us |
This is typical of outfitters moaning how hard done by they are. In any arrangement for a hunt whether donation or purchased the client should be advised of all costs that are involved initially and not after some provisional agreement has been made. This is a widespread practice in business, get a potential customer on the hook first and then say ''did'nt I tell you about the additional surcharges and fees involved''. African outfitters have been steadily increasing prices for hunts over the years which are not justified and will eventually result in the demise of the sport. | |||
|
One of Us |
Personally speaking, and YMMV, but I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about this outfitter based on his recent posts. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have a hard time understanding why an Outfitter would “donate” a hunt. Wouldn’t it be easier to just send SCI a check and avoid the hassle. There is usually an “objective” to these donations and they do not always turn out as expected (for the outfitter and hunter). My first trip to Africa was “donated”. It turned out great but I ended up spending a lot of extra $$$. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The dollars that SCI gets through a hunt donation don't cost the outfitter the same amount. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yup. Silence would have been better. | |||
|
| One of Us |
A friend of mine bought a donated, 5-day plains game hunt at a Ducks Unlimited auction. The hunt was for 4 people. The hunters only had to pay for transportation costs and trophy fees for any animals they shot. I think he paid about $2000.00. Unfortunately his hunting buddies backed out and he wound up not going. I guess like anything, read the fine print and ask questions and LISTEN TO THE ANSWERS. BH63 Hunting buff is better than sex! | |||
|
| Administrator |
Can some tell me wha YMMV means! | |||
|
| Moderator |
Your mileage may vary - meaning your results may be different than the speaker/poster. George  | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don’t think it’s fair to say the $1,500 bow hunting fee should have been disclosed up front as that was never part of the deal as offered. The buyer made it part of the deal after... Now...upon his insistence on using his bow (which was stupid and the hunter should have done way more research too) it’s certainly fair to wonder about what Thierry and Buzz brought up about the issuance of permits (or lack therof) and knowing that was unrealistic But no one ever said he got there with his bow and was denied the ability to hunt either here did they? | |||
|
| One of Us |
After talking with a friend of mine in the business, I guess I have even more questions than before about the source of the complaint here... It sounds like the OP is more of a booking agent than anything else, and really doesn't know the rules of what is going on in Zim. Sounds like Buzz and Thierry have some questions about how this is going on- Its my understanding that bow hunting for Lion and Elephant in Zim was a bit of an experiment for a time, and it sounds like the government has decided against it (maybe due to the bad PR from the Palmer incident, maybe due to other reasons, I don't know for sure, but it seems like this is a case of someone thinking he knows what is going on not being in on the facts at the time. He made kind of a pot shot at a good friend of mine (and respected PH) in the hunts offered area. While he may have a deal with some folks over there, according to Brian Van Blerk, he never talked to him at all before putting his name in an advertisement. We are only hearing one side of the story. | |||
|
| One of Us |
They don't come better than Brian in my opinion, and after looking at that thread, I agree it was a shot that was uncalled for. Brian is as honest, and professional as the day is long.Ive been on several safaris within Brian,stayed with him and his family, and always had fantastic trips,and results.He's been a very good friend for many years now. Butch | |||
|
| Administrator |
Interesting! Especially as it is stated that the client has expressed his desire to use a bow right from the beginning, and the operator makes no mention of the legality of the hunt in that area with a bow. Someone should break it out and make it simple. It seems we have two complaints, one from each side. One from the client who did wish to pay the extra fee for a bow hunt. And the operator for not knowing the laws regarding a bow hunt on his area. Did I get that right?? | |||
|
| Administrator |
No answer from SafariSean?? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not sure about this one and what the deal is but my "donated" hunt that I paid $2K for at AZ Antelope fundraiser cost us 4 a shit ton of money. It was worth it for my 13 year old to go and harvest many fine animals including what will be a top 20 or higher bush duiker. (SCI ans RW) Will be the last time I fall for that (no trophy fees). But we all had a great time and supporting SA farmers is a good deal and they were good people. I got all the PG I need anyway now so on to the big stuff again.... White Mountains Arizona | |||
|
One of Us |
Having run the live auction for the Anchorage SCI chapter for a couple years (years ago/not the year in question) I can say the bow hunting issue is irrelevant to the transaction. Unless the hunt was marketed at the banquet as a possible bow hunt, it is entirely the responsibility of the buyer to do homework before bidding on a hunt. Any suggestions or promises made after the purchase are irrelevant to the purchase. Likely the credit card purchase will be disputed and reversed if the story is as told. It wouldn't be the first time either that someone tried to get out of it be disputing a charge and then finally did have the charge reinstated on their credit card. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
|
| Administrator |
I think both the client and the company giving the donated hunts did not do their homework properly. Not a problem of the chapter that was given the donation. | |||
|
| one of us |
My comments: Assuming that the auction was not offered as a bow hunt, restrictions on using a bow are not a valid reason for backing out of an auction bid. The hunter has the option of a rifle hunt. If he declines, he should be barred from future bidding. But there are some 'extenuating circumstances'. 1. Nobody pays $2000 per day for a non-exportable elephant hunt in Zim. The going rate is about $750 per day in a good area. And the "trophy fee" is a little on the high side for a non-exportable elephant, $7500 is normal but in the case of "ration" hunts there is no norm. So the "value" of this donation is at most $2750 based on a $7500 trophy fee. It is about zero based on a $5000 kill fee. 2. There is no such thing as an "own use" hunt in Zim for foreign hunters. This is a term that has come into use in Namibia. The legality of foreign hunters participating in PAC and "Rations" hunts in Zim is rather murky. PAC hunts are supposed to be conducted by Parks or the operator on an as-needed basis with no fixed annual quota. There was a time when clients were doing these hunts but that was tightened up about 8 years ago due to widespread abuse. Rations hunts are subject to an internal Parks quota and are supposed to be conducted by Parks themselves although it is common practice to ask the operator to take the animal and to turn a blind eye to a client's participation. The fee, if any, is an under-the-table affair negotiated at a local level that could be as little as $1000. To be safe, a "tuskless" hunt is the best choice for someone wanting an affordable elephant hunt in Zim. It is not very smart to buy a trophy elephant hunt in Zim at the present time as USFW may block the import. 3. As others have stated, bow hunting is strictly controlled and illegal in Parks concessions. Bowhunting for elephant is not something to take lightly and the reality is the PH inevitably follows immediately with rifle. An elephant's lungs do not collapse when punctured, as is the case with other species. 4. The camp in this case is not located in the concession, it is in an adjacent area. For whatever reason, the operator has not completed the reconstruction of the camp in Chete. So a client would need to travel each day by boat from the camp to the concession, with limited access to the bulk of the concession. 5. This is an extremely rugged area that is known for "tough" hunts, even in the more bountiful times past. 5 days is a very short hunt in Chete. Now Lhook can come out of his cave and make as many nasty comments as he likes. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
|
| Administrator |
SafariSean is back on on the forums, I hope he has the time to answer some of the questions raised by his post here. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Hunt was donated for 2 areas Chete and Sijarira. One is a Safari Area the other a forest area where bow hunting is 100% legal. I made the donation as "any legal weapon" and would gladly have taken the hunter in question on a hunt. I have the entire email chain and he flatly states he cant draw a bow of legal weight as the reason for not being able to do the hunt. Anyone that thinks $8500 is cutting a fat hog on a hunt like this is ridiculous ALL of those funds were to be paid to the area people, ZPWMA and or Forestry depending on the area. Russ mentioned it was usually $7500 which is correct but I added on a grand to give to the scouts who are not being paid regularly. NOT FOR WAYNE OR I. IF you want to o the hunt I will set it up and not require any deposit. ONLY if the client is 100% satisfied with the hunt will the $8500 be assessed. These hunts no mater the nomenclature (why split hairs over what to call them) are designed to feed scouts and area locals that are not getting the meat they once did when there were exportable trophy Ele hunts now few and far betwen. If you want to have a great time, get close enough to a bull ele to smell the peanuts and whack him plus feed about 100 VERY poor folks for a month or more come hunt with us!! Other questions YES we have a EXREMELY nice camp at Sijarira and we have vehicles staged at Chete Landing so we just take a short boat ride down the lake and presto away we go into Chete. Yes Chete is HUGE and to be honest there is no way to cover it from CHETE CAMP let alone from Sij so in the future will establish 2 fly camps so we can utilize the entire area. Rebuilding is expensive and we are on it but it is ALL being done out of pocket so it will take us time but the hunting is way better than I expected and so far results are good. I will be at Chete on the 10th and will send picture of what we have accomplished. If I missed anything let me know and I will gladly address the question. OFF now to see about a big Kudu!! SAFARISEAN | |||
|
| Administrator |
Thank you for your reply. Certainly clears a few things up. Best of luck. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Donated hunts and those that exploit them!
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia