The thread on .416 Rigby got me going AGAIN on the subject of a .404 Jeffery. My Win 70 .375 appears to feed a .404 case easily, so getting it to feed properly shouldn't be a problem. A simple rebarrel is easy enough. And YES I know all the old saws about losing your ammo and having to buy a box at a tuck shop in the African bush. Sorry.... don't buy that one, I have always been able to have ammo and old Frank arrive at the same time. so rare ammo isn't a concern to me.

Does the idea of a .404 either a factory rifle or a rebarrel appeal to anyone other than ME?

Does a .423" 400 grain slug kill THAT much better than a .416" ?? assume both are at 2400 fps. (very interested in this reply)

Has anyone taken a current M70 and converted to .404 Jeffery??

RAY ??? Your opinion Please... Thanks FN

Frank,

I find it very appealing, especially if a Model 70 can bea switch barrel between 404 and 375. That is, I don't have "lose" the 375 to have the 404.

Did you only feed one cartridge or also try the second cartridge for the left side.

Mike

Mike375,

I have only two rounds, one a Kynoch soft and an RWS solid. It does appear to feed either/or from the magazine. Doesn't matter which one is first it will feed 1st then 2nd with no problems.
FN

[This message has been edited by Frank Nowakowski (edited 04-22-2001).]

Frank,

Ray can probaly straighten this out, but there seems to be some confusionor variation on dimensions for the 404.

It is supposed to be .423 bullets but Pac-Nor list their barrels as .425 (maybe a misprint?) and cartridges of the world says .421.

Woodleigh bullets are .423.

There are quite a few 404s in Australia, both originals and custom made on M98s.

Next to the 300 and 375 H&Hs, I think the 404 packs more tradition, history and practicality in one package than any other caliber.

One of our ciustom gunsmiths (who is a 404 fan) has chronographed RWS ammo at 2440 f/s in his rifle.

Mike

ME! My next rifle will be a 404, for all the reasons stated above. It just has a bunch of panache, it was designed for the 98 action, and is within my recoil tolerance zone. Ku-dude

Frank,
the Jefferys is .423

I believe the 404 kills a little better than the 416's but I'm sure I'll be taken to task on that one...I have used both.

I built a couple of 404's on the Obendrof actions and a couple on the M-47 action..I had to have the rails ground a bit in the m-70 and the M-98's but thats no biggie...

I have shot a lot of dangerous game with this caliber and it never let me down.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Okay, the 404 is a great old round. Is it any better, by even a little bit, than a 416? No, no way, no how. 400grs at 2400 is still 400grs at 2400 and 7/1000" is worse than splitting hairs!
Both good rounds and I would be happy to own either one but I've decided the 416 is my choice. Just recently I attempted to have a prominent gunsmith make me a 404 and he flatly refused, giving a multitude of reasons, all valid. With no standardization of ammo, how do you get a proper reamer dimension? With those troubles maybe Brand X ammo or cases will work and not Brand Z. I could see this as a major problem and so did Ruger so I will stay with the SAAMI standard 416 Remington or Rigby.

What does everyone think about taking 375 ultra mag brass and necking it to 404 dimensions? Brass would be plentiful. This would also be a good deal for the 416.
Bolt

If I had the funds & just wanted to be traditional, then the .404. would get my nod. I think JOhn S. has a point though, getting a reamer & dies to match would be important. Then, if you have someone making a rifle for you, they can probably have the dies made as well.
I like my .458Lott, but the .416/.404 would make better sence as an all-round rifle. Then again, the .375h&h seems to fill that bill well. Maybe a .375 & a .458Lott!

I have a .404 Jeffery based on a 98 action and have no problem with it feeding any type of ammo. RWS, Mast, Bell and Norma. It has a .423 barrel. It shoots Barnes solids and X-bullets to the same point of aim. Of course, with 400 grain bullets, the sectional density of the .404 is less than the .416, but only a bit. The TKO factor is greater at the same fps for the .404, but again only marginally. I have my own dies ordered, but buy loaded ammo for serious business from Safari Arms. My favorite load is about 2250 fps, a little slower than a .416, but no sticking problems and sure extraction. That is the velocity at which the solids and softs print in the same cluster. I know of several African animals (including the largest buff ever taken in the concession)who didn't seem to notice the missing 150 fps.
One thing about showing up with a .404. The P.H. knows that you have at least studied the history of the sport.

Just my thoughts.
Ernest

[This message has been edited by judgeg (edited 04-22-2001).]

Frank, I was in the same predicament as you not to long ago. I wanted to build a 416 caliber weapon or the 404 Jeff. It came down to the 416 Rigby, 404 Jeff, and the 425 Express. Well I decided on the 404 Jeff then trying to get one built was more difficult(many smith's I talked to either advised me against it or did not even want the job) same thing John S was told for the same reasons ec't. The 404 and the 416 Rigby just say Africa. So in the end after more research I decided on a 425 Express. Uses 300 Win mag brass and the .423 bullets just like the jeffery. And it fits in a standard long action, and brass does not cost as much as the Rigby or Jeffery.

I have never had any of the so called problems that John S and his gunsmith have come up with....Bullets and brass are readily available...I use RWS and Norma brass. Clymer makes reamers to specs...I think Ruger created a problem through lack of study before they built 404's. they got thier wires crossed...

Just out of curiosty have you shot any Buffalo with the 404 Jefferys John??? Not all on paper tells the whole story. I think the 404 kills better, is it in my mind?? perhaps, but I'll be satisfied with that until someone proves to me otherwise......

I also use the 416 Rem. and that is my present rifle, but I'd trade it for a 404 if anyone would like...I have used it the last couple of years and it is a good accruate rifle on a M-70 CF action....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
Matter of fact I have and it did about the same as my Rigby. I borrowed one from my PH who kept it as a spare. I also borrowed another PH's 500 double and killed a couple with it. I like the 500 better. Trying to make one out as better over the other is splitting hairs, sorry but it doesn't wash regardless of how much game is taken with one or the other and that's how I see it. Often times the particular rifle makes one fall in love with a cartridge, or that cartridge fits into a particular action that the owner prefers, or the hunter pulls off an impressive shot with said combo. All of a sudden that cartridge or rifle is "old death and destruction" and let no man call it otherwise!
Whether or not Ruger got their wires crossed is open to question. But that's not the isuue, whose spec's does one use? If you have had no problems with Norma or RWS brass that proves little or nothing because you most likely handload your ammo. There are discrepancies out there and someone will likely have a problem, maybe not the original owner but maybe a second or third owner that doesn't handload.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 04-23-2001).]

I hate to sound like a broken record, 'cause I have posted this before, but I have a 416/404. The rifle is a custom made on a 98 action. It is OK, but there are significant problems when you go to this cartridge.

The first problem is there is not basis for establish load development.

The second problem we had was the discovery that Hornady's 416 400 grain soft point and solid have a different length forward of the cannelure. Seating to the case neck resulted in pressure spikes. (The 98 action is one strong SOB!)

The third problem is that we used a 416 pilot for the case trimming. This was just large enough that a bullet would spin in the case neck. Only by going to a 410 pilot for my S&W40, could I get the bullets to seat properly.

I am still working up loads for this rifle which is a rediculously light 9.75#. I am trying to find a load at about 2350fps for a 400 grain bullet that doesn't cause pressure problems. So far, I have not found a load that I am satisfied with. (If anyone has any suggestions, please jump right in.)

The case is a standard 404 case. The neck is shortened to arrive at an OACL of 2.7". This was done to prevent any Hornady's being loaded to the cannelure raising the pressure. Case capacity is 404.

After this experience, I think the 404 is a better choice, because bullets for a 404 are now readily available. It just makes better sense.

If anyone really want a 416/404, let me know. I'll share all my information, and if you make me a really sweet offer, I would part with mine. Believe me, it is getting to be really sweet. This is a rifle you can carry all day and stop an APC. And unbelieveably accurate. Ku-dude

KD-
I'm curious as to why you wanted to make a 416/404 when there are so many choices of existing cartridges in this class? I know you're already deep into this gun but maybe having it rechambered to the 416 Dakota would solve most of your troubles? Or, why not run a throater into the chamber and lengthen out the throat so those Hornadys won't cause the pressure spikes? When you mentioned "seated to the case neck" do you mean the bullet is seated so that the cannelure is even with the mouth of the case?

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 04-23-2001).]

John,
No doubt your right on the killing issue, I just felt like ruffling your fur, been to congenial lately and felt I have been spoiling you....Hate it that you have used the 404, really ruined my plans to rip into you..shame on you.

On the serious side and As to reamer standardization, I have gone with Clymer and had no problems with any factory ammo that I've tried....Problem with the old guns is they used a straight reamer and ran it in until they decided to stop, could get a bit touchy with that kind of quality control...Ruger, by the way, was told they were using short reamers, but the bean counters didn't want to trash the ones they had, and produced a bad rifle. It backfired!! There was no excuse for that, they surely had access to all production ammo. I have a sample of every round ever produced and I test them..Takes 10 minutes. Strange, I have never encountered this problem with my 404's...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Quite a 404s have been made in Australia and there appears to be no problems.

Perhaps it is similar to the 35 Whelen and its headspace issue, more "talk" than "reality"

I seem to remember reading several years ago about problems with the 416 Rigby and that Federal and Ruger virtually set the dimensions.

In Phil Sharpe's old handloading book, sections that were written around 1939 refer to problems with the 300 and 375 H&H that would be fixed with the introduction of the Model 70 in these two calibers.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 04-23-2001).]

I ran into this myself with my own Rigby, it was built in the late 70s or early 80s and was chambered just a bit short for the Federal ammo. I had it lengthened a bit and now it works with everything. Probably the same thing for the 404, but some of these damned gunbuilders are so scared of product liability that unless it has a SAAMI seal of approval they won't touch it!!

John,

I think a couple of other things also enter the picture.

Back in the 1970s we were getting Hirtenberger ammo in Australia. That ammo would would not chamber in sako 270s. But since the 270 was such a "standard" the fault was simplt place on the rifle or ammo or both rather than the 270.

I also suspect that Ruger had discoved that the 404 was not going to be a seller and so just backed off anyway.

I think there would be very few people who would buy a rifle chambered in 404 when the same rifle and for the same price is available in 416 Rigby.

Mike

So how big an action would it take to do a 404? Would it take a mauser magnum action? Could it be chambered in a regular 98 action? I have a couple of rifles that could be rechambered provided the dimensions would fit. How about a 300 win mag action? Hmm. Thanks "D"

"D"

Basically any action that can be used for the 375 can be used the 404 Jeffrey and that of course includes a Mauser 98.

In fact I think the overall length a loaded round is a bit shorter than a 375.

I would think the easiest rifle to do that was not currently a 375 would be a Rem 700 in 7mm Rem or 300 Win. (of course the thought of a 404 in a Rem 700 could be painful)

A 300 Winchester in a Model 70 would take some work as compared to the Rem 700.

Mike

The one I am thinking of is a Ruger in 300 winmag. It is stainless and that makes me cringe too. I also have a 98 action. The 98 action fits the 6.5x55 swede round at this point. It won't quite fit a 375 round as is. Is a 98 action a 98 action? In other words were they made in magnum and non magnum sizes? Thanks for my edification. "D"

"D"

Mr Atkinson are far higher qualifies than me on Mausers but we will havea go.

Tere is a Magnum Mauser action which is about .4" (I think?) longer than the Mauser 98.

The Mauser 98 is lengthened by cutting some of the bottom recoil lug recess away for the 375. Same deal for the 404.

This also use to be done for the pre 64 Model 70 in 375 as they were about .3" shorter than the post 64 receiver.

Mike

I'm no expert either but I suspect a .404
will fit a standard 98 action with little or no tweaking. I base this on the fact that historically many of the game depts issued the .404 as their standard "working" DG rifle, and this was at a time when the magnum 98 action was not as readily as availible as the standard action and more expensive ino the bargin.

Mike,
I have built 404 on both magnum and std. Mausers and of course on the m-70 pre 64..

the 404 being shorter than the 375 makes it easier to convert on the std. action..

Always open an action as much as you can in back and as little as you can in front when doing such conversions..

Very little releaving is necessary up front on the M-98 std. with the 404..actually only enough to make it feed. Open it up all you can in back..

In 1910 the 404 was designed to be the largest cartridge that the M-98 Mauser could accept with reasonable modification...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

.404 Jeffery will it work in a rifle that started out as a mod 70 .338 win mag.i don't want to have a 404 built but a .338 ultra mag.remington says that the .338 ultra mag came from the 404 jeffery case,thanks,keith

Frank, knowing your penchant for "classic" cartridges, I'd say "to hell with the problems" and do it... sounds to me like its really what you want. That, after all, is reason enough!

BTW, a factory original Ruger #1 in 404 Jeff was for sale at the Bozeman show in June... I know who the owner is and believe he didn't sell it... not sure the asking price as it wasn't marked... you know, "if you have to ask" kind of thing!

Brad

Well booger me Ruger! Don't anybody ever send a Ruger 404 Jeffery back to the Ruger factory for any reason, as one of the employees will find an excuse to say it is boogered, keep it, declare it unfixable, and stash it in his own collection. I know a dealer that had this happen to him, and he had to threaten legal action to get his 404 back.

Just what is the going price for this rarity and what year was it made? Sumbuddy who know?