Just wondering what everyone here thinks of the 404 Jeffery cartridge. I have a chance to pick up a brand new CZ Safari Classic (nice wood and barrel band) at a really good price,(less than $1900.00). Retail on this one is $2,350.00.
Any comments would be appreciated on the cartridge and the rifle. Thanks.

Larry Sellers

I have a rebarelled M70 in 404 Jeffery and I think it's the cat's meow. I love shooting it, even though it hasn't yet made it to Africa. I think it's going to be my favorite African cartridge for bushveld conditions. The .423 bullet diameter, the 380 (with NorthForks) to 400 grain bullet weight (I like the Barnes Banded Solids which make one big hole for three shots from my rifle) which I load from 2250 to 2400 fps, what's not to like? Mine happens to feed flawlessly and I guess that is the one thing I would verify if I were to buy a CZ in this caliber. But a good smith can fix that right up for you.

Check the feeding before you buy. fill the mag, check that rounds don't try to pop out while you are loading it, tap the muzzel gently on a mat to get all the rounds right to the front of the mag as they would be in recoil and then cycle the action as fast as you can.

I strongly recomend this as the brits had endless trouble with .404's and feeding and never did produce a decent "mass production" version that was perfect. My Cogswell and Harrison feeds fine but the rounds try and pop out of the mag as you load - so you cannot do an "eyes off" reload. The H&H worked like it should untill the magazine box broke.

CZ can probably build a better "production" rifle than the brits ever could, but having seen many here that didn't work- especially ones built on an action that was too long. Have seen some recent South African built custom rifles that made the Grade 111 government issue cogswells look wonderfull ( Truvello has got the chambering wrong and they will not fire RWS factory ammo!)

Larry,
Grab it. It is the best thing CZ ever made. I have one. I also have a RUM boxed M70 rebarrel. Either of these are great. Strong and functional.

There is one sour grapes dude here who claims to have gotten a CZ lemon in .404 Jeffery. I guess crap happens, and so does the UPS delivery person.

The M70 holds 3 + 1.

The CZ holds 5 + 1.

The CZ box width is Mauser cosine perfect for the .404 Jeffery head diameter. Mine feeds slicker than greased owl crap right out of the box.

CZ doesn't mess up all of their rifles.

Their .505 Gibbs is, however, a cruel joke indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


Their .505 Gibbs is, however, a cruel joke indeed.

Yeah, I shot one and the muzzle rose so much that the cocking piece scratched the lens of my sunglasses. That one shot cost me $10 for the ammo plus $20 for new sunglasses.

500grains,
I am truly amazed that a man of your experience would let a CZ shop mule have its way with you like that. Were you hitting the bottle that day? Plinking or sipping?

Larry,
The 9.5 pound CZ .404 Jeffery is a gentle rifle. It has the 10" twist McGowen .423 caliber barrel, so you have ready reloading data if you search on the .404 Jeffery African Sheep Rifle by RIP. Let her rip.

$20.00 for sunglasses?

Dave

Thanks RIP and everyone else who posted. I'll be picking up the Jeffery on Saturday!! Where did you say reloading info was located, tried the full line you posted, but didn't get anything to come up. I have a buddy who is a true "custom reloading nut" but would like to have a proven load for him to start with. Thanks again for all the help. Any other info on this subject is still welcomed.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
500grains,
I am truly amazed that a man of your experience would let a CZ shop mule have its way with you like that. Were you hitting the bottle that day? Plinking or sipping?

Larry,
The 9.5 pound CZ .404 Jeffery is a gentle rifle. It has the 10" twist McGowen .423 caliber barrel, so you have ready reloading data if you search on the .404 Jeffery African Sheep Rifle by RIP. Let her rip.

I own that same rifle and as RIP stated it feeds damm slick straight from the box. I will also add that it is stocked in what CZ calls it's fancy wood. It is the single most beautiful piece of wood I have on any of my guns (that includes a $15,000 28 ga I had built a few years ago).
The price tag of $1900 is a decent price as I paid $2150 all in earlier this year at a show.

Larry,
You would need to do an advanced search back about three years and you will get 3 pages of listings, mostly on Big Bores Forum, some on this forum, search to match any terms by subject and body of post, to include:

.404 Jeffery African Sheep Rifle RIP

Cross bolts, pillars, and glass bed and your fancy walnut CZ stock can handle anything you might want to load.

If you want, shoot a gentle load before all the reinforcements arrive:

GM215M primer
Norma brass
H4831SC Extreme 88.0 grains
Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP .423cal/400gr: 2200 fps

African Sheep Rifle Loads:

Same brass and primer
Charge weights of Varget Extreme

81.0 grains
Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP 400gr > 2400fps

83.0 grains
North Fork SP 380 gr > 2525 fps

87.6 grains
North Fork SP 340 gr > 2700 fps

Above are for 10" twist McGowen barrels, like comes on the CZ 550 Magnum Safari Classic. Of course, if the reamer was worn down by the time your rifle was made, the chamber might be tighter and you might get higher pressures and velocities, so start about 5 grains below above loads and work up.

It is mechanically sound and a "best" start for a fine rifle.

Mine has pretty wood too.

quote:

Originally posted by jorgie:
I own that same rifle and as RIP stated it feeds damm slick straight from the box. I will also add that it is stocked in what CZ calls it's fancy wood. It is the single most beautiful piece of wood I have on any of my guns (that includes a $15,000 28 ga I had built a few years ago).
The price tag of $1900 is a decent price as I paid $2150 all in earlier this year at a show.

I would like to see a picture of your 404. I looked at and handeled the big guns in Reno this past January. I think that they could corner the market on big bores now that some of the competition is gone. They will have to do a much better job of finishing out the guns and get rid of that butt ugly rear sight package and do better on bottom metal and safety if they want to get premium money for their rifles. Every one I cycled felt gritty. Not smooth at all. I put that down to getting some rifles ASAP for the show. They should have done much better as my first impression was that they had a very ameturish offering. I think they could take a lesson from Ruger in their barrel making. To me the Barrels are way to heavy for caliber and often too long.

Larry,

I've just found this string today after a long day yesterday flying from Cape Town-Johannesburg-Dulles-Tampa.

I hope your luck is better than mine.

I am only one of the "sour grapes" guys here that "claims" to have gotten a bad one from CZ.

If you search here you'll find my story as well as the others, may even find photos of the pitiful wood work they provide on these rifles.

But as they are all "made by a computer, they must be correct" they have no way or willingness to provide a solution.

The wood fit in the bottom metal area was laughable, it was inlet so poorly the the bolt could not be removed, the safety did not function, and the floor plate release did not function.

Yes the action felt gritty too but that seemed to smooth out a bit when it was cycled a few hundred times. I had no quarrel with the CZ built metal work or barrel - though I was never able to fire it, I'm sure it would have worked. But the Missouri built stock was a joke!

As I did not contemplate the purchase as a $2000 rifle "kit" I asked CZ to fix it. Which they graciously attempted to do but they were unable to make the wood fit the bottom metal and they offered to return my money - which I accepted.

[A year or so after this experience the samples they had at the SHOT Show looked exactly the same.]

"Sour Grapes", well I think not. I guess it all depends on what you think you should expect in a $2000 CZ rifle. I expected more than they provided.

Les

Larry,

I would add an American Hunting Rifles (AHR) model 70 style safety and trigger to any CZ 550 I owned. I had one installed on mine and am very happy w both after some 600 rounds and one trip to Africa. (rebarreled to 450 Dakota).

I solved stock problems by having ROBAR install action in a BRNO 602 McMillan stock. Nice fit and very acurate.



Ron's 404 loads will handle anything on earth. I would happily hunt with such a rifle for rest of my life.

PS I had ROBAR do blueing and plating on my rifle also. Very smooth action now.

Probably a $3,000 rifle now but looks like $8,000.

Les has a valid point. The wood to metal fit on box magazine on most CZ's is horrible. My PH's 375 was fully 1/8 inch off each side and may be responsible for what Ganyana refered to as the rounds popping up and out of box magazine. I do not have this problem on the BRNO stock.

Andy

I can only say what my rifle is like. It is the only CZ long gun I own but I have 2 pistols that are flawless as well.
I like my 404 J so much I've toyed with the idea of having CZ build me a 416 Taylor. Their quoted price to me was approx. $2400 for what I wanted done. I may well have had it built but just about that time I decided to do a buffalo hunt with a friend next year. I guess it came down to the 416 Taylor or a second buffalo trophy fee so suffice to say my second bull must be better than the first

From African Hunter magazine:

Reloading the .404 Jeffery
by Keith Luckhurst

The aritcle lists Somchem (South African) powders but the article is still interesting and informative.

From the article:
-----------------------
Addendum on Somchem powders:
Since the article was written S355 has been released, and this is now proving the powder of choice for both the .404 and the 9,3x62. Somchem powders S335, S355, and S365 are extruded powders. Burning rates are approximately equivalent to IMR 3031, IMR 4064, and IMR 4350. S341 is a double based, very high energy ball powder, equivalent in burning rate to IMR 4895 or BLC-2.
- Dr. Don Heath
-----------------------

Of course, direct charge-for-charge subsitutions of powder based just upon similar burning rates should not be done. The article does provides some useful info about what the .404 is capable of when loaded with modern powders.

-Bob F.

Larry,
If you are not able to remove the bolt from that rifle, send it back! It is the demon rifle that was LHowell's!

I agree that the American style stocks are too fat, too short, and the front of the bottom metal is not flush with the bottom of the stock.

This is a CZ American fashion statement, that could be refashioned and refinished. Some have very pretty wood worth salvaging.

At least the rifle has a primary recoil lug on the action and a secondary on the barrel, unlike the Ruger 77RSM which has only a recoil plate in the forearm, no lug at all on the action, and a faux crossbolt.

Andy has the best plan there, of course.

A competent rifleman will recognize the value of the CZ .404 Jeffery, and make good use of it, as long as it is not the demon-rifle of LHowell.

I think that Thad Scott has a jefferie 404 for sale. it looks interesting.

Hello Rip,
You do not care for the Ruger for the reasons you stated and understand that, but got to say, those CZ's that I have seen are about the crudest offerings I have ever seen offered to the sporting rifle public. Yes, some of the wood is striking in figure, not always a good thing, but the fit and finish is just like I noticed on a whole host of products coming out of eastern Europe some years ago and usually did not work. CZ's remind me of "the Yugo's" of rifles and to pay thier price and then have them "rebuilt" I believe would only make your local friendly gunsmith happy.

As to the "faux" cross bolt on the Rugers and no action lug, recoil plate features of the Ruger, I will do some research on just why and what the design is supposed to accomplish and let you know what engineering has to say about it for I am curious why they would build a rifle in that manner and not believing it would accomplish some desired goal?? Believe Ruger is about as big as they get these days and they did not get that way making very many major mistakes, but will check it out.

Driver,
Good! Keep us posted.

There are undesirable features and aspects with both the Ruger RSM and CZ 550 Magnum. One must pick his poison, what he feels is easiest to correct or live with. I own one RSM and a dozen 550 Magnums.

The .404 Jeffery I bought for about $1700, and the .505 Gibbs for about $1800. Since I have 10 other CZ 550 Magnums that cost me from $350 to $750 max, I can grudgingly accept the ripoff by CZ on the Safari Classic models, due to their low quantity of production, and startup costs.

I once bought two "gunsmith special" or "parts" guns from my dealer for $350 each. He moves a lot of CZ's and gets offered some rejects now and then. These two, a .458 WinMag and a .416 Rigby, had no defects except the sights did not line up in time to the receiver, very slightly canted. They were rebarreled to Lapua wildcats.

The .404 Jeffery could be made very reasonably by rebarreling a .375 H&H or a .458 WinMag, and get other features sorted out while you are at it.

The RSM has the cosmetic quarter rib and a good safety going for it. I guess they couldn't afford a recoil lug on the action and the barrel and keep it under $2000. So they settled for the "innovative" recoil plate anchored in the forearm and extending back to slip over a tiny round bolster on the bottom of the action where the usual recoil lug should be.

Tightening the 45 degree action screw on the Ruger RSM pulls the tiny round bolster tight against the back side of the hole in the recoil plate with which it mates. All the recoil of every shot bears on this investment cast bolster little bigger than a worn down pencil eraser. Says good things about investment casting.

The RSM is the pencil-necked geek of rifle bedding. The standard Ruger M77 MkII is much better.

Why I prefer the CZ 550 Magnum gunsmithed into something as good as it gets, for cartridges no bigger than the .416 Rigby head and rim size.

You might be a redneck if ... you own a dozen CZ 550 Magnums.

You might be Cindy Garrison if ... you hunt with a first generation Ruger M77 RSM in .375 H&H. Very cosmetic.

Ruger is on their third generation version of tweeking the RSM design. Maybe the 4th generation will have a recoil lug on the action and on the barrel? All they have to do is add a Remington-style washer lug between the receiver and quarter rib, and a recoil lug to the barrel, remove the pencil eraser bolster, and discard the recoil plate, and add a crossbolt behind the magazine box to match the one in front, and hide a crossbolt in the forearm, and pillar and glass bed. Maybe generation 5 will have a recoil lug made integral to the action like the standard M77 MkII?

I won't hold my breath. Best done on your own, like with a CZ, or any true custom rifle tricked out.

Ruger/CZ, custom guns etc...I ask whom really gives a hoot?
Yes fine firearms fall right in the same mode as fine brandy,cigars,vehicles etc. But no one I know spends $1500-$2000 on a firearm and really expects it to be a custom hand produced weapon.
For my tastes I spend my money on fine shotguns, my brother buys Remington 870s off the shelf. None of my clay birds powder any finer than his do. Usually he out shoots me at every stint on the range.
Do you really think a buffalo or elephant cares what the wood to metal fit of the rifle that just launched a projectile into it's side is? I for one don't .
Think about that next time the sundowners are poured.

I too was one of the "sour grapes" guys, and I did post about it before, rather vehemently.

I stated my case so strongly because I have many other, smaller caliber CZs that exceded my expectaions for fit and finish, performance and that unexplainable appeal a rifle has when you throw it to your shoulder and it feels like a shooter, all compared to the price.

I also lusted after and waited a long time for mine- many months finding a dealer who even said they could get one, then 2-3 months, if memory serves, to receive it after ordering.

Yes, I was disappointed- I have spent about twice the price for some 404s that are everything one could ask for, so, yes, I was looking for a great rifle at a low price, and the CZ I received did not fit the bill.

FYI I compared it to an original WJ Jeffery 404, a custom 404J on an FN action, a custom Montana Rifle action 404J that I own, all at about twice the price of the CZ.

But even for the price of the CZ, I thought it was a rifle I did not want to work with/tweek to get right. That is me- you may be happy to do this, as others are.

Anyway, it may work for you.

Good luck!

This might be a good compromise between a Darcy E'chols 416 remington and a CZ550 off the shelf parts kit that needs alot of gunsmithing.

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/S550DGR.htm

For under $4,000 this has most of what a fellow needs including a mod 70 trigger and safety.

Andy