I have been reluctant to post this discussion of my dealings with OaA and SCI, but in light of recent events, here goes nothing.

Two years ago, when attending the Utah Chapter / SCI banquet, I purchased an auction hunt from OaA. Yes, I should have done more homework, but this was a bit before their operation had really hit the radar of AR, among others, and yes, I was caught up in the spirit of the auction and supporting SCI.

The trip was supposedly an RSA hunt, for 4 people, 2 hunters and two non-hunters. Value was listed as $11,000. I paid somewhat more than $5K for the hunt. I envisioned this as a family trip for my wife and sons.

Imagine my surprise the next morning when I contacted OaA (Groenwald) and his response was that they had not donated a trip to this chapter, and he did not have availability anyway in RSA. My quick calls to the local chapter officers brought a return call from OaA a few days later saying they had now "remembered the donation", but due to lack of available time slots in RSA they were proposing an alternate in Zimbabwe. We discussed turning the "donation" into a 1 person dangerous game safari, and I was initially quite interested in this option. I was surprised to hear that OaA was making this offer after being threatened by local chapter officials, and a little uncomfortable about whether OaA was really going to be willing to cooperate and offer a quality hunt. As we all know, once you are on the ground in a foreign country, the written contract means very little, and you really need to rely on the operator's integrity and honor. I was willing to listen, however, and see what could be worked out. I should have known....

Over the course of a couple more phone calls, OaA outlined what they were willing to provide in Zim. In short, they would take me on a buff / leopard hunt, at a "discount" of $1,000 off of their posted internet prices. In addition, the trip could only be offered on one specific property that wasn't fully booked, and that property was specifically named on the "red list" banning US citizens from supporting certain listed Zim officials.

Realizing the reluctance(!) of OaA to really honor the hunt donation (coerced by SCI?), and the fact I had no interest in violating US law, I agreed with OaA to turn down the auction hunt, and we agreed to go our separate ways. At this point, and to this day, I have no real axe to gring with OaA. Yes, they weren't offering me any kind of deal. Yes, they tried to get me to book a hunt in violation of US law. At this point I could tell who I was dealing with, and chose to no longer deal with them. I don't exactly wish them well, but if you want to do business with sharks (lions?), don't be surprised if you get bit. I was happier to send my business to reputable operators elsewhere.

The more incredible turn of events came from dealing with SCI, however. I informed them the hunt would not be taking place, and did not expect to pay for the hunt. I did not initially get any response, and actually thought the matter was settled. I canceled the hunt payment through my credit card company, stating the outfitter was unable to provide the purchased trip and that an acceptable alternate could not be arranged.
Four months later I recieved an angry call from SCI demanding payment for the hunt. Regardless of both OaA's and my intention not to go through with this hunt, they have insisted that SCI be paid. When I again refused to pay for a hunt the outfitter would not and could not provide (it was now winter in the US, and the hunt was only good for that year), I was threatened with a lawsuit. I chose to ignore that threat, considering this the misguided attempt of an overzealous chapter officer.

I was further, surprised, however, when I sent my check to attend the following years banquet, to have my check (which included SCI membership dues) returned by certified mail the day before the banquet with a note saying that I would be refused admission to the banquet due to my failure to pay for the hunt last year. That hunt would also be re-auctioned at the banquet the following night, and I would be billed for any difference in the selling price.
After calming down (a little), I realized that their was clearly some hidden agenda, and I frankly don't have the time or inclination to be supporting an organization who doesn't want my support. I will happily continue and increase my support of RMEF, NRA, etc.

To really cap off the issue, however, SCI actually did file a small claims action against me, trying to recover the difference in the selling price of the hunt. (Somehow, with all the negative publicity, OaA's hunts are now selling for less money!) I will defend myself vigorously, and even considered filing a countersuit against them for failing to provide the hunt they auctioned, and trying to substitute a hunt that was clearly illegal. In the end, however, it really isn't worth my time. I'll defend myself in small claims court. If I should somehow lose, SCI will get a few dollars from me for this hunt. Rest assured it will be the last dollar SCI ever sees from me. The funny thing is, I would have already gladly donated far more than the amount of the claim. I would have renewed my memership, I would have attended Reno again this year, and probably bought as much merchandise in the auctions and silent auctions there as I did last year. To really top it all off, I got this nice letter from SCI - national thanking me for my generous support at Reno last year, and encouraging me to continue supporting their mission. They suddenly were less interested when I tried to talk with them about the actions of the local chapter, however, and how they had even returned my membership dues. Go figure.

I write this lengthy tale only so that others may be forewarned about dealings with SCI. I do support the written mission of SCI, but will now lend my support through other like minded, yet better run, organizations. I have read the auction brochure for Reno and the other threads on this forum regarding the OaA donation of a Zim hunt. I do feel sorry for the dumb bastard who buys the hunt this weekend.

By the way, I did manage to book a Zim hunt with a reputable outfitter for that same year, and had a wonderful trip. It is simply a matter a booking with those who you can trust.

Cheers,

Bill

Somehow I completly belive this sad story, the saga continues

Bill,
My condolences for your tribulations. I have been an on-again off-again member of the SCI several times, always getting disgusted by certain events and trends, cancelling membership, then rejoining when the memories fade, or some particularly sweet advertizing about SCI conservation projects perks my ears.

One hand doesn't know what the other is doing in SCI apparently. I am an NRA life member, and proud of it, but I am ashamed to be an SCI member again after reading your story.

There ought to be better communication and linkage from the national to the local chapters.

The lunatics are running the asylum at SCI.

It appears to me that your dispute is with the Utah Chapter of SCI, not SCI itself.

Have you contact SCI in Tucson to discuss this fiasco?

George

George,

You are 100% correct. The actual dispute is with the Utah Chapter. As stated, however, the national office has not been of any assistance. It has been very interesting to learn how little interest the SCI national organization has in the actions of its chapter / affiliates.

Bill

Didn't SCI the national organization return your membership dues? If so, it would seem they are complicit in the whole hunt ripoff.

My membership dues were part of the $250 "package" price of the local banquet. National was not directly responsible. When I brought it to their attention that my national dues were refused by the local chapter, they were not interested in helping. I was told that if I sent a check directly to Tuscon, that they would happily reinstate my membership. Now why would I do that???

Bill

Bill,

Perhaps the Utah Chapter would care to come have a read in Accurate Reloading concerning OoA? Sounds like a "sure lose" situation for them in court.

Something tells me a lot of other past auction buyers were offered the same deal you were.

I've been a on and off member of sci since 1978 and from experiences similar to yours it's back of off. In our mn chapter it seems like the things I join for are no longer. No longer to we have hunting discussions, instead its partys and fund raisers. It seems to me like the ero's of money have taken over the organization. Bill I think that maybe you should be happy to have your dues money back.

Bill- Your story pisses me off and is making me consider whether to renew my membership or not. Makes me think that I'll just keep up with the Dallas Safari Club and forget about SCI.

John

that sucks--I too am ashamed of the SCI's inability to see the light--there seems to be less and less common sense walking the world today--saddening--chris

Bill,
I too am very distressed to hear of your problems with OaA and the SCI chapter.

All you have tried to do is to help an organization that you joined to promote and conserve Big Game Hunting.

I suppose this needs to fall into the
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished category!

I appreciate everyone's comments. I'm really not looking for sympathy, however. I really have put the situation behind me, and as I said, I am happy to send my donation dollars to organizations that seem better managed and more appreciative.

I am not even unhappy to have my dues returned. Instead of Reno, I enjoyed my trip to the Dallas Safari Club show this year. It was great meeting Myles McCallum, Mims Reed, etc. My sole purpose in posting this saga was to hopefully forewarn other AR members. I think it is one of the true services this forum provides, along with singing the praises of the truly good operators. I will stick with the honourable PH's in the future, and if I pay a little more, well, then I have gotten what I paid for.
Good luck and good hunting.
Bill

quote:

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Originally posted by butchloc:
I've been a on and off member of sci since 1978 and from experiences similar to yours it's back of off. In our mn chapter it seems like the things I join for are no longer. No longer to we have hunting discussions, instead its partys and fund raisers. It seems to me like the ero's of money have taken over the organization. Bill I think that maybe you should be happy to have your dues money back.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 30ott6:
Bill- Your story pisses me off and is making me consider whether to renew my membership or not. Makes me think that I'll just keep up with the Dallas Safari Club and forget about SCI.
John

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Although not solely due to the OoA issue, I'm not renewing my membership in SCI (national) this year. I never did join our local SCI chapter. I have been a member of the Houston Safari Club for a few years and I think I will concentrate on that. Those of us in Houston and Dallas are fortunate to have two very viable alternatives to SCI.

-Bob F.

I, like many above have been a member at one time or another. I have not been a local chapter or national member for several years. It is only my opinion, but I just don't agree with most of their policies. To me SCI's trophy books should be made of softer paper! They have created trophy classes, and measurment standards to allow people to get their little trophy and be a "Grand Pooba" (which you have to pay SCI for by the way) or what ever the hell they call it these days. It has nothing to do with trophy hunting anymore, only money. Hell, they should just ask for a copy of your financial statement and send you a bill for your Pooba awards!! They have taken a pure sport that I love dearly, and turned it into a "pecker measuring contest"! Again, only my opinion.

BOWHUNR

I've been following the OoA and SCI saga over the last couple pf months, I must agree with BOWHUNR, they did turned hunting in a measuring sport, it seems to me they only care about the money. I was thinking of joining SCI in RSA, but after this tread they can forget it, I will never in my life support SCI or become a member. They should be ashamed of themselves.
Jaco Human

Guys & gals,
Not trying to hijack the thread here, but I have a couple questions concerning the orginizations. I have never been much of an "organization" type guy, I had been hunting internationally for several years before I finally joined SCI several years ago, truthfully I joined mostly for the magazine & to go to Reno 1 time (a guy darned sure ought to witness it once). I don't have the money that it takes to "keep up with the Jones's" with the organization, I don't participate other than to finally pay my dues when the magazine stops coming!
What is the relationship between these groups - Dallas, Houston & so forth are they all different groups with different dues & agendas? or all just local affiliates of the national SCI?
Mike

The Dallas Safari Club Dallas Safari Club Website

and the Houston Safari Club Houston Safari Club Website

are distinct organizations NOT CONNECTED TO SCI.

Dallas and Houston are not associated with each other.

I don't know all the details, but several years ago Dallas and Houston got tired of SCI taking their money and ignoring them (given the large memberships and amount of money raised for SCI). So Texans, being Texans, raised their own flag and went independant. They have done this before when Mexico got a little too controlling.

You don't have to live in Dallas to be a member of the Dallas Safari Club. Not sure about Houston, but you can check the website.

I urge everyone to join Dallas and/or Houston.

I too joined SCI just to get the magazine, but that magazine has become a private journal for a very few authors and friends of the publisher. There for a while it was the "Kyle Ball, M.D." magazine. I don't find the magazine informative anymore.

I have decided not to renew my membership to SCI. It's become a small click of the very rich playing with our money. I have had enough.

Regards,

Terry

Thanks Terry,

I am at the same point with the magazine, the last years worth my wife has just looked at the pictures & then off to the trashcan they go.
I will have to do some investigating into Dallas & Houston, though I still won't be much of a participator.
Mike

Bob, Terry, I'm with y'all on this matter. I will not renew with SCI. I will concentrate on Dallas and Houston.

I have attended a few Houston Meetings and they are very nice down-to-earth folks.

The Dallas show is a lot of fun and I look forward to going and being with the good members of this forum and my fellow Double Rifle Shooters Society members.

llamapacker,

This is almost a duplicate of the experience I had with the local SCI chapeter once. I bought this hunt from a SA outfit that went belly-up, and I could never get in touch with them.

So I cancelled the credit card payment, and the local SCI chapter went ballistic, expecting me to pay up anyway. It was one of the "donated" hunts that was only partially donated, so the local chapter was out about $2500 that they were given to the outfitter. They screwed up and expected me to cover it! We "settled" in the long run, but I don't hold it against the national SCI organization.

I still belong to SCI, because where else are you going to go, but have passed on the local chapter.

But Gentlemen- What about the comedy value of the magazine? Heroic tales of stalking full mane lions in RSA, etc, etc. I get AT LEAST one full belly laugh per issue. As Terry says, it is an accurate indicator of who is sucking up to who. And that info could be helpful in planning....

Is it just me, or has the African Hunter magazine become a shill for the Craig Boddington conglomerate?

crane & will,
my hunting partner (who still actually reads the magazine) used almost your exact words the last time we were together & the subject came up!!LOL.
mike

I talk to many hunters everyday on the telephone and by email, maybe as many as 25 to 50 a day, and I hear horror tales every week about donated auctioned off hunts at good discounts, they talk of hidden costs and what was not encluded, bad treatment of rushing them in and out, etc. etc....scary stuff. In all fairness some donated auctioned off hunts are good hunts, but how does one seperate the two, even some well known legitamate outfits view donated hunt clients as second class citizens according to some of the conversations with outfitters I have had privy too over drinks...It's a sad situation when you think about it.

The otherside of the question is many of the outfitters feel black mailed into donating hunts, and some shows even require it on top of some very high price booths etc. and this is what creates the situation...two sides to every story..

The result is that if you fall into that trap and buckle under to it, then you are guilty of feeing the monster..whatever happened to a fair days wage for a fair days work..

I prefer to donate hunts to a deserving individual on my own in conjunction with the Safari company..

My approach may alienate some, but its the bases for a relitively successful career in the hunting business.

My advise is to shop and find a good deal, check out references and book that hunt, if its too good to be true then it probably is..A well known PH once told me that for every discount he gave in a hunt, some quality of the hunt had to be removed...I believe that.

Our Chapter here in Jacksonville seems to be a bit like the old SCI. They have lots of meetings and yes they do have a big fundraiser, butfor the most part is quite fun. I've nver participated much. Terry's assessment of "Big SCI" is right on the money. One year my partners and I donated a bear hunt to another local chapter in the Midwest. The two guys that came, on of them was the biggest PRICK we've ever dealt with. We rolled out the red carpet, he got himslef a nice bear, yet all he did was bitch and complain. I too joined SCI to "get close" to the Big Hunters and dream, but now that I've "been there and done that," I don't need them. They nver paid much attention to us little guys anyway. jorge

quote:

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Originally posted by T.Carr:

....<snip>.....

I don't know all the details, but several years ago Dallas and Houston got tired of SCI taking their money and ignoring them (given the large memberships and amount of money raised for SCI). So Texans, being Texans, raised their own flag and went independant. They have done this before when Mexico got a little too controlling.

....<snip>.....

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LMAO!!!

-Bob F.

llamapacker - Thank you very much for the post. I was seriously thinking about joining SCI, but not after the way they treated you. It shouldn't matter if it was a local chapter that did the dirty deed or not. The national organization should have stepped in on your behalf. Sorry about your situation and thanks for warning the rest of us.

llamapacker

Thanks as well for posting your report.

It is good to here some of the behind scenes stories of how OOA continues to operate and the complicity and greed of some of their organisational accomplices.

Hell, if I bought an auction and it couldn't be delivered and I was offered some crap alternative I would be banging on the club's door rather than the other way around.

God Bless Sam Houston,
God Bless the Republic,
God Bless the Fallen Heros of Texas

quote:

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Originally posted by BOWHUNR:
I, like many above have been a member at one time or another. I have not been a local chapter or national member for several years. It is only my opinion, but I just don't agree with most of their policies. To me SCI's trophy books should be made of softer paper! They have created trophy classes, and measurment standards to allow people to get their little trophy and be a "Grand Pooba" (which you have to pay SCI for by the way) or what ever the hell they call it these days. It has nothing to do with trophy hunting anymore, only money. Hell, they should just ask for a copy of your financial statement and send you a bill for your Pooba awards!! They have taken a pure sport that I love dearly, and turned it into a "pecker measuring contest"! Again, only my opinion.

BOWHUNR

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BOWHUNTR:

Their record book would have much more value if it was made of "Soft & Gentle" or some similar brand! I have refused to submit anything from them from day one for a number of reasons. Furthermore, it appeared to me that changes were made in the measurement standards from the old B&C and Rowland Ward's to make some of the trophies from Mac and his croonies look better. The last time around I paid for three years after not being a memeber for years. No more, when it is gone it's gone. we had a nice time at Dallas, it will work for the itch to go somewhere.

I like many here seem to be a "off and on again" member of SCI. Once my current membership lapses I'll not renew...

As some have mentioned I really get tired on the "SCI way" of hunting. Most the guys and outfitters who are heavily involved in SCI that I've talked to are only interested in two things: (1) a guarantee of trophy; and (2) having the trophy enter into a record book. Things like quality of the hunt, challenge of a fair chasse hunt, learning how to hunt a different species by the local methods, the local hunting culture, etc. All the things that matter to me when I travel to hunt, just don't seem to matter that much to the SCI guys I've met. I remember once talking to a "big time SCI booking agent" (no worries no one on this forum) and I had to get off the phone, all the hunts he wanted to push on me involved: guaranteed kill, and guaranteed trophy book. Not my cup of tea.

I have to agree with Bowhunr's assessment of the national SCI. While they have done some admirable things with conservation, the focus now seems to be the "book" with all its little levels and slams. Mostly seems to revolve around enough cash to do the hunts with the big scores. How else do you justify including elk shot in a 1000 acre pen as "fair chase"? The magazine also has become a lot of big dollar hunters stroking themselves in visions of being the next PHC. I hope some of these guys hunt better than they storytell.

I'm a member of SCI, and I fully understand how you feel, I think it's more the chapter that is the problem. A friend of mine bought a hunt at my chapter's fund raiser, he is having some problems getting the hunt squared away, (I won't go into detail because it's in the works, but I will spell it out once it's taken care of).
Anyhow, my chapter is 100% involved in getting the hunt taken care of, when I told then about the problem they where on the phone in a flash! That to me is "great" business!

It seems to me as a Life Member of SCI, Master Measurer and current Board Member that there is a lot of carping about SCI in this forum. Little if any points are made on what SCI is doing for defense of the hunter, conservation and education around the world.

For example who else is in state and federal courts in the US against the anti-hunters?

The Record Books and award programs earn money that goes to SCI programs. The organization is led by volunteers, and supported by paid staff.

Who did President Bush invite to the White House and to his ranch to talk outdoor issues during th election?

And I put my name on what I post.

jim

quote:

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Originally posted by Chasseur:
I like many here seem to be a "off and on again" member of SCI. Once my current membership lapses I'll not renew...

As some have mentioned I really get tired on the "SCI way" of hunting. Most the guys and outfitters who are heavily involved in SCI that I've talked to are only interested in two things: (1) a guarantee of trophy; and (2) having the trophy enter into a record book. Things like quality of the hunt, challenge of a fair chasse hunt, learning how to hunt a different species by the local methods, the local hunting culture, etc. All the things that matter to me when I travel to hunt, just don't seem to matter that much to the SCI guys I've met. I remember once talking to a "big time SCI booking agent" (no worries no one on this forum) and I had to get off the phone, all the hunts he wanted to push on me involved: guaranteed kill, and guaranteed trophy book. Not my cup of tea.

---

A couple of points here that need clearing up. If you have read my posts on SCI you know that I see many, many things wrong with it and the people who run it.

But, less than 5% of SCI members have ever entered anything in the Record Book. Like the evening news, the negative gets all the publicity and spin. I think that just about everybody is proud to take a large animal that would make the Book. Most people never enter it though. As to advertising Book animals, how many of you would go with an outfittter who advertised only small animals?

25% of the members belong to a local Chapter where 70% of the local net revenue raised stays. Unlike RMEF, FNAWS etc where between 90 - 95% goes to the National organization.

Almost half of the members attend the Convention each year.

The Record Book is lure. It barely breaks even in dollars but is used to catch Big Fish. Enough Big Fish, with Big Egos and Big Money, who like to donate large sums to SCI for the other work it does. Big
Egos like to see their nmae in print and get awards. The Record Book and all the myriad of awards associated with it do just that.

Until every member is prepared to pony up a few thousand dollars a year to support the Conservation and Political effort SCI does on behalf of all hunters we are going to have to live with the evils of the Book and the Auction.

Hunter Jim

Are you saying its Okay for the SCI to be hypocritical?

If SCI is going to hold themselves up to the hunting nation as the protector or our rights and leaders in conservation than they should do just that. By not taking a proactive attitude with handling this situation they call in to question their whole organization.

Most SCI members are not high rollers. They are hard working people that believe SCI will stand up for them. So when tales are told of gifts and free hunts and other things that look to be improper they want to know if SCI is spending their money correctly. They want to know if certain people are benefiting on their donated time and efforts.

Be the leaders you claim to be.

John

"There for awhile it was the "Kyle Ball, M.D." magazine."

Terry, I thought I was the only guy who was tired of that guy.

quote:

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Originally posted by HunterJim:
It seems to me as a Life Member of SCI, Master Measurer and current Board Member that there is a lot of carping about SCI in this forum. Little if any points are made on what SCI is _doing_ for defense of the hunter, conservation and education around the world.

For example who else is in state and federal courts in the US against the anti-hunters?

The Record Books and award programs earn money that goes to SCI programs. The organization is led by volunteers, and supported by paid staff.

Who did President Bush invite to the White House and to his ranch to talk outdoor issues during th election?

And I put my name on what I post.

jim

---

Jim,

You neglect to mention that members of several conservation groups met with President Bush simultaneously. I don't have the complete list in fromt of me, but I know that RMEF, SFW, and several others attended the same meeting. I recall the picture of all those attending, and it was a true who's who of sporting organizations. I am even glad that SCI had one seat at the table.

There are numerous other bodies spending significant dollars in court as well. Think NRA and THE U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance, for starters.

I have been expecting someone to come to SCI's defense. You will note that I did not take issue with the stated mission, and in fact state that in general I support that mission. I now choose to provide my support to other organizations, who more fully utilize my contributions for their intended purpose. I have never found bullying to be an effective method for gaining voluntary support.

I have learned a lot about the structure of SCI and its chapters. I now recognize why it is a bad thing for so much of the money to stay with the local chapters. Local Chapters often spend money on fringe issues, and sometimes even contradict each other. There is apparently very little oversight and coordination of chapter spending.(The RMEF model, where most of the money goes to national, is far better and less subject to shenanigans. Individual members or chapters lobby for spending in their area, but it still has to be approved by national as a worthwhile project. Money isn't frittered away on some local chapter officials pet project with no real impact.) National SCI provides very little, if any, oversight of local chapters, as long as they get their 30%.

I do not condemn SCI outright. I believe they were founded to support a good cause. Sometimes, people being people, the mission gets hijacked by personal interests. I am glad to have been forced to learn more about where my contributions were being spent. This has led me to question other organizations as well, and I now feel much better about where my donations dollars are going. And for the record, that is not to SCI.

Bill

I do not and cannot in good conscience make a donation to an organization that holds the safari company hostage for a donation in order to exhibit at a combination boat-sport-travel-hunting show. You get what you pay for in life - there is no free lunch and no "good" or "inside" deal. The safari company is giving away profits to bolster an organization that does not truly represent the safari company's interest.

I am on the board of a conservation organization that raises about $150,000 per year for projects we want to support. We host an art show of 50 or so artists. We charge them a booth fee of about $350 and 20% commission on all art sold at the show. We set them up, we advertise, we get 20,000 people to the show and sell an enormous amount of art. All are happy at the end of the day. We have artists lined up to get into the show.

If you want to hold a good show, do the same with safari companies or brokers - charge a reasonable booth fee and ask for an agents commision on all hunts sold via the show. If the show is as good as everyone claims they are, everyone wins. The hunter gets a tax deduction for the amount of the commission, the safari operator gets hunts booked and the hosting entity gets operating money.

I checked out RMEF, DU, Nature Conservancy and others a few years ago. All are focused on fund raising to support thier mission. DU has "chapters" which in reality are fundraising groups. I suggest that SCI look deep within itself and settle this issue as they will continue to lose members.

I have no intention of joining as I don't agree with the "measuring" of trophies. I think it is wrong and don't do it. I joined Houston Safari Club a few years ago to attend the meetings and learn about new places to hunt. Money well spent by me.

If I were a safari company, I would go to Dallas and Houston and Harrisburg and blow off the Reno event.