Although the 375 UM, Weatherby, 378 etc get more press all the time, Dr Robertson, author of "Nyati" and "The Perfect Shot" recomends SLOWING DOWN the 375 H&H.(for buffalo) Has anyone done that? How has it worked? Ray, it sounds like you have done that with North Forks, any others? Thanks "D"

I "slowed down" my 375 H&H with 270-grain FailSafes and the result was a much more manageable load that killed as effectively as hotter recipes.

Last summer in Zim it accounted for several one-shot kills on plains game.

I understand the basics of velocity and expansion; however, a bullet I can place where it needs to go at minimum-plus velocity beats a hot load that misses the mark--at least, for me.

I don't know what he would be talking about, my 375 H+H shoots 300gr Noslers and Solids at 2500 fps or so and the 270 gr bullets to around 2700 fps. I have never had a problem shooting those loads or killing just about anything I fired a shot at. But he may have a point as the modern powers produce maybe 150 fps faster loads than when the cartridge was first introduced. I don't know in what contex he made that comment.

I took Robertson's advise the last time I went to RSA and as very pleases with the results. I used 300 GR Woodleighs at about 2400 fps. Everything went down fast and stayed down. Took 8 animals from Impala to Eland.

But then, the same rifle has done well with the same bullets aroung 2600 fps too. Call it a crap shoot. Placement remains the key. Modern bullets are pretty forgiving.

Mac

I used Woodleigh 300-grain Protected Point soft points out of my .376 Steyr at 2300 fps, and they killed very effectively from 12 yards to 150 yards on bushbuck, nyala, waterbuck, and eland.

[ 02-18-2003, 18:09: Message edited by: Slingster ]

D Hunter

I shot my .375 H&H with 300 gr Woodleighs (FMJs & RNSPs) at 2400 fps and they performed very well on all game shot when I did my part (2 Zebras, 2 Bushbuck, 2 Impala and a Waterbuck plus a Buff).

The 300 gr FMJ shot through the shoulders of a buff with this speed without problems, so why does one need to push the bullet up to 500 fps faster with increased chances of deflection in brush?

[ 02-16-2003, 07:28: Message edited by: NitroX ]

Only with el-cheapo-frag bullets, would you be safer at 2400 fps in a .375 caliber 300 grainer.

Kevin Robertson just doesn't trust your possible choices of fragmentation bullets and some slightly pointy or round nosed solids.

Most factory 300 grain ammo shoots at 2450 fps anyway, in most rifles.

Robertson's point is pretty moot for such a light bullet of borderline sectional density (.305) as the 300 grain .375.

"I cannot show you the science to prove it, but you cannot show me the science either," I say to Doctari Robertson.

So what is the point of 2700 fps with a 300 grain .375 bullet?

The point is: trajectory with a good BC expanding bullet for long range plains game shooting.

And the point is: straight line penetration with a good bullet such as the GSC FN, that will hit harder and penetrate deeper, the faster it goes from the muzzle.

There is a new set of rules with these bullets.

I am waiting on some 300 grain FN and HV .375 bullets from GSC. Gerard do you hear me? Gina do you hear me?

2700 fps and low pressures are the cat's meow.

Velocities much higher start to foul the barrel significantly more heavily with all bullets, of any make, IMHO.

Obi Wan Saeed has done pretty well with his fast stepping .375/404. I'll bet he does closer to 2700 fps with his 300 grain X-Bullets, and they do just great. He just says the 2600 to 2700 fps comment to make others feel better about their beloved .375 H&H's.

Yep, the old gal gets red in the face at 2550 fps. This might be the only good reason to slow her down to 2400 to 2450 fps, assuming a good bullet is being used.

Also, any bullet at any velocity is susceptible to brush deflection.

Just thought I would stir the pot a bit.

[ 02-16-2003, 09:36: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

I have on many ocassions slowed my 375 and 416 down to 2350-2400 FPS with perfect results everytime....I can't tell any difference and in fact I have shot many Buffalo with a 404 at 2150 FPS with the same results as the Buffalo that I have shot at 2600 FPS with the same 404....

I don't think it makes any difference one way or the other, at least that is my experience. The big bulls just need penitration, good bullet performance and correct bullet placement..They sure don't cave in to hi-velocity very well...

The context of Robertson's statement pertained to buffalo.....(1) he felt most client's shot better with the bullet slowed down as recoil is much less; (2) frontal shots---the hide along the front chest is thicker so slower bullets will penetrate better than faster ones; and (3) you won't get over-penetration on side shots.

DaggaRon...with respect to "science" I think any thoughful approach would include lots of observations and collection of data and I think that Robertson has done that...both as a vet and as a PH.

I think an experienced observer with a scientific background is a more than credible source.

The truth was stated by Ray. There is no big difference.

The difference is in poor shooting by a flincher.

The difference is in a more versatile rifle that can handle spitting distance shots on the big stuff and quarter mile shots on the small stuff, easily with one rifle, maybe with two different bullets, and that is all.

Now, tell me how it is that with a bullet like the GSC FN solid (that cuts a cookie-cutter, bullet diameter hole in the hide of a buffalo going in) will fail to penetrate the buffalo at least as well at 2700 fps as it will at 2400 fps?

It is all in the bullet construction and the bullet placement.

The difference in 2400 fps versus 2700 fps is trivial in regards to close range buffalo shooting. A good shot with a good bullet will deal more death and destruction at 2700 fps.

Slow it down to soothe the flinchers, or to soothe the frag bullets.

How about those hard cast 540 grain .458 caliber bullets at handgun velocities? Oops, let's not start a bib overall convention!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DaggaRon:
The truth was stated by Ray. There is no big difference.
I tend to agree, that 'magnum' speeds are not always needed.

The difference is in a more versatile rifle that can handle spitting distance shots on the big stuff and quarter mile shots on the small stuff, easily with one rifle, maybe with two different bullets, and that is all.
The trajectory of a rifle has a lot to do with bullet speed, so once the shooter learns of it, then he most certainly will shoot well. Extra bullet speed has it's own trajectory vs a slower bullet, but once the shooter learns it, then speed is a lesser of a factor when it comes to longer shots. Sure, a slower bullet may have less power at the target, but with proper shot placement it becomes almost moot. A flater traj doesn't always mean more success. Shot placement, regardless of speed, is what matters.

The difference in 2400 fps versus 2700 fps is trivial in regards to close range buffalo shooting. A good shot with a good bullet will deal more death and destruction at 2700 fps.
I'm not too sure how much more death can be put upon an animal just because the bullet is going a little faster, but dead is dead, last time I checked.

Slow it down to soothe the flinchers...
It does indeed help in this manner, to obtain proper shot placement. That the bullet still kills at this slower speed is a bonus I'm sure we all can live with. Why fight it? ~~~Suluuq

As long as you use well made bullets,there is no reason to up the speed of the origenal 375H&H, with a 300 gr weight! 2550 fps has worked for almost 100 yrs on buffalo that are no better built today than they were in 1912. I have reduced the speed on occasion when all I could get was standard 300 gr soft points, like the 300 gr Hornady RNSP. This reduction in speed, let this very soft bullet work better, without comeing apart! I have two of those bullets in my bullet case that were mushroomed perfectly, after being shot through the shoulders of an Eland and ended up against the skin on the off side. Tell me what would have been gained by 200 fps more speed, above the 2400 fps they were traveling, outside bullet distruction?

I see absolutely no need for any of the hopped up 375s, I say if the old 1912 guy doesn't get it done, then what you need is a bigger rifle, not more speed! The flatter shooting of the 3oo gr bullet out at 500 yds, has little to do with African hunting anyway. The average shot on game in Africa is no more that 200 yds, and would be closer to 100 yds. Anyone who can't hit an impala at 200 yds with a 375 H&H with factory 300 gr ammo, has not learned to shoot his rifle! The buffalo and such are not shot at those ranges so what is the point? Hopped up rifles are designed for the same thing most fishing lures are designed for, to catch more shooters/fishermen than game/fish!

[ 02-16-2003, 19:19: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

O.K.
Now, how about this one:
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Dagga,
Again it makes no difference as Angels don't normally dance, it ruffles their feathers...but to answer your question, 2400 angels could conceivably dance on a pin head at 2300 FPS...

Thats about it, as I don't know where to go with this one...

Ray,
The devil made me do it.

DaggaRon,
Sometimes a bullet does indeed penetrate better at lower velocity, I remember reading about the army discovering this many years ago. A 30 cal FMJ would penentrate more sand bags at 500 yards than at 50. I'm sure there is something to this but I Cannot explain it. Sometimes just because something is counterintuitive it is not wrong, just like investing. And thats a big sometimes.

Kevin I think the hi/velocity low penetration issue has to do with an increase in the likelihood of tumbling. I am not sure this has anything to do with Dr Robertsons rec. I think it has, as previously stated, to do with trampoline effect on an end on shot and overpenetration on a side on lung shot. The concept of intentionally slowing the load down flies in the face of most of what we all tend to do with our handloading. We usually try to wring all the FPS we can get out of our cases. His recomending loading it down seemed to me a novel approach. Interesting to see so many have used it. And had apparent success. Thanks for the replies. "D"

For maximum penetration with any of the DG calibers, ie. 375 to 500; can it be said that maximum penetration occurs at 50-100 yds at 2150 to 2400 fps for both solids and softs. I imagine the bullet type of the solid, round vs. flat makes a big difference in penetration, also.

pmm

A soft point bullet as low velocity penitrates better because high velocity makes a bullet meat with higher impact, causing expansion, giveing the bullet a wider cross section thus more resistence to penitration is set up....the same with a solid except no expansion occurs, just resistence by the hi vel bullet...simple phyics...

But all this is only applicable up to a point, if you up the velocity dramatically with a solid it will penitrate more, but develops a tendency to go off course, tumble and/or do weird things...

Yeah, yeah, guys, I know, we have all heard such reports as the sand bag and pointy FMJ at 50 yards and 500 yards .

I am talking about the difference between 2400 fps and 2700 fps at the muzzle, and a live target. It is not a magic barrier to good bullet performance, this 2400 fps mark. The greatest factor is bullet construction and shooter ability in not flinching.

I think excellent performance can be had with good bullets such as the GSC FN solid at 2400 to 2700 fps. It makes very little difference.

I also have had various Barnes X-Bullets perform splendidly at 2700 fps MV. From 50 yards to 342 yards, buffalo to deer, nothing goofy happened.

My fascination with speed and big bullets ends at 2700 fps. I find 2100 fps to 2700 fps useful with the right bullet.

The all around capabilities of the 300 grain .375 bullet are best served by velocities closer to 2700 fps than 2400 fps.

There is nothing magical about 2400 fps, assuming you don't have fragmentation bullets, and assuming you can handle the heat in the kitchen.

It is just like 2400 angels versus 2700 angels, providing the devil is not picking your bullets or placing them for you.

No big difference, no big deal.

So don't bash the 9.5x70 Tornado in able hands.

here we go again..yada yada yada.

A high velocity 375 completely destroys the heart of an american bison. A std 375 makes a 2-3 inch hole. A flat nose 375 or 458 FMJ makes something less than this.

Ive lost elk in woods with a hole in the heart but never one without a heart to pump o2 to the brain.

I like velocity and have never had a premium 375 fail me at 3000 fps.

Andy

I respect what Kevin Robertson has to say - he has probably shot more buffs than all of us put together! Good reason to use the 9.3x62 with Woodleigh 320 grainers!

P.S. Ray,

You would agree with the 320 grain Woodleighs above would`nt you?

It is today and always has been, the combination of velocity and bullet weight that separates the .375 from the others and I'll not settle for less. It seems Africa's "PH's" and apparently it's authors, are often more concerned with ensuring good hits from assumed borderline marksmen, than conveyance of the time tested benefits of full power loadings in this caliber.

Doesn't seem like a lot to fuss about to me.

300gr at 2500 fps --- 4160 ftlbs of ME
300gr at 2400 fps --- 3840 ftlbs of ME

If we go back to the original post I think we at least started talking about dropping the velocity to 2400fps....per Robertson. As I stated before this doesn't seem like much of a drop to me for several reasons...(1) except for the premium loads from Fed/Rem etc almost all the "normal" .375 H&H factory ammo I've fired in rifles with 22" to 24" barrels typically showed velocities between 2450fps and 2475fps...not the figures advertised but these loads have been killing buffalo for years...maybe not smacking them to the ground with fire coming out of the entry wounds but killing them none the less.

With respect to the validity of Robertson's opinion/suggestion.......I'm not a PH and I certainly don't have the experience of many that post here but I have more than a passing acquaintance with with end of the barrel a bullet comes out....and the fact is most shooters think they can handle recoil but can't....now I know most of the people who post here can hit a teacup at 200 yards from the back of a running horse, in the dark, with both shots using a 500 Nitro...but that ain't the typical safari client.

If I were a PH I would much rather have a client who could hit a silver dollar at 50 yards using a 300gr bullet at 2400 fps than one who had trouble staying on a pie-plate at the same distance with the same bullet going 2500 fps.

Last comment about the recoil of a 300gr bullet. For me anything less than 2500 fps is no problem and I shoot virtually all day and still maintain the accuracy my rifle is capable of....at 2400 fps it is a real pussycat....as velocity approaches 2550 fps I can notice a drop-off in my performance some time into the 2nd box. My rifle will do 2600 fps but I won't practice with it.

Others results and limits may vary but I don't know of anyone who doesn't shoot better with rifles that recoil less......and let's face it, Robertson didn't write his book for the experts that post on this forum...did he?

Andy,
You have lost elk shot through the heart??? Isn't that a little unusual? I don't recall losing any heart shot animals in my lifetime nor seeing such a thing...I suggest that if you lost them, they may not have been heart shot but lung shot.

Yes I like the 320 gr. Woodleigh in the 9.3x62, it is my choice of a soft for that caliber...

Andy if you lost it how do you know it had a hole in its heart?

Fair question!

My good freind and the respected naval aviator Bill Myering shot a large 4 x 5 elk in the heart with a 220 gr Remington RN from a 30-06 in 1987 or 1988 at a range of less than 50 yards. It did not react to the shot and was lost for over 24 hours in heavy timber. It did die and was recovered but most of the meat was damaged. That is how we determined it had been shot in the heart.

If you look in Daktaris book on the perfect shot you will see a picture of a buffalos heart that has been shot with a 458 FMJ at 2400 fps mv. that is about how the elk looked with the 220 gr RNSP. Similar velocity, so interesting.

I think all of us should remember that Daktari is or was trying to slow down the 375 FMJ so it would not exit on a broad side shot. Dont think he was slowing it down with soft points. Its been awhile since I read his book but thats what I recall.

He does not trust the 300 gr nosler either as he is convinced it actually bounced back from a front on neck shot and the bull was never recovered or showed signs of being hit which is even more weird than me saying I shot an elk in the heart and "lost it."

I dont think Dr. Robertson has alot of experience with premium soft points until comming to the US, and despite his vast experience many of the folks who post here have more experience with premiums than he does. Afterall, he is using a reduced load in a 375 with FMJ's so it wont exit on a broad side shot! All or most premium 375s would do this at normal to high velocity.

He's an intelligent man and Im sure that when he has access to better bullets he will see you dont have to load them down.

Andy

I made a frontal shot on a buff at about 45-50 yards with the 300gr Nosler hitting at the spot the neck joins the body (a visible crease)...bullet performed perfectly by penetrating enough to break the neck where it dropped down from the spine and continuing on into the body...recovered weight was about 200gr which I find to be typical of Noslers...about 2/3s. Initial velocity of the Nosler was close to 2550 fps....buff dropped straight down.

Nitro Express I find that the Win Supreme 270 failsafes are already slowed down in my rifle. They were only doing just under 2500fps in my 24 inch barrelled Sako & 2450 fps in my friends Ruger Magnum with 23 inch barrel.

A long way below 2700 fps which is what they should be doing. Sorry "supposed" to be doing.

I was wondering why they seemed more pleasant to shoot than my handloaded 230gn Speer loads!!

Anybody else chrono these loads & find the same thing?

/

If nothing else the world of the monolithic and half monolithic and soldered cores has changed the theme of things....

I doubt that today it makes much difference what velocity you shoot one of these babies at, they are going to perform....I doubt that with a solid bullet it makes little difference what the velocity is these days, it is still a solid and has only one performance and that being penitration..The GS FN and the Brider FN being the exception to the new rules, FN solids seem to kill like a tough SP IMO.....

I have used my 375 and 416 at somewhat reduced speeds over the years, even with these new bullets...about 2300 to 2350 in both cases and had excellent results 100%......I have seen them sizzle out of clients guns at very high velocity indeed with about the same effect...

If I were using Nosler, Woodleigh, Hornady, Speer or other than monolithics then the slower velocity makes good since and definatly works...Again the Northfork has a lot to offer here, it will work at all velocities...I think the very heavy new 350 gr. 375 and the 450 gr. 416 PP from Woodleigh will work at any velocity but it will be October before I can testify to that...

Yes, I think the rules are changing, and if I can see the change, then anybody should because I'm not prone to give up tradition or the old ways, I still like them, they make me happy, I feel secure in them, I am a born nostalgic.........