I saw this article in the Hunting Report and thought it was very interesting on the subject of Safari/Hunting Tipping practices. The link is posted below but not sure if it will work for non subscribers. If it doesn't work I have it saved and would like to make it available but don't know how. If someone does know how to post a document I can send it to you.

http://www.huntingreport.com/email_extra/pdf/Tipping_Survey_Sept_2004.pdf

Can people who aren't subscribers to the Hunting Report see it?

quote:

Originally posted by bulldog563:
Can people who aren't subscribers to the Hunting Report see it?

Yes.

Thanks for the post.

Kyler

With all due respect to the Hunt Report, I think those tables can be taken with a large dose od salt!

It looks like quite a number of responses were just making fun, rather than trying to be constructive in their suggestions!

Just look at the extremes of the table, and you will see what I mean.

I think for a more reasonable take on this, only the middle half of the tables should have been taken into considerations, dropping the bottom and top quarters.

I read the comments,which seem to reflect peoples opinion and quandry rather well.
Many thanks for showing us the link.
Personally I agree with many commentators in that tipping for a hunt is no different than tipping the surgeon that took the tumor out of your brain
This tongue in cheek comment ,only to make my point.
Tipping , some folks state is to renumerate for service received.
Tipping in actuality is part of the price albeit negotiable in nature.

Because of its nature,it creates awkward situations.Nobody that works for his money can give it away,but also does not want to be perceived as unjust.
It would be far better if all costs would be included in the price up front. Everyone would then know what to expect.But hey ,that's from my cultural perspective.I understand that in other cultures the cookie crumbles differently.


I disagree with the notion that tipping is renumeration for good services -- I frankly expect good services, else I would go elsewhere.

My cookies crumble along the lines I'll tip what I feel is appropriate and only if I feel a tip is earned to begin with.
No amount of hard luck song and dance will earn more just less. If the safari company isn't paying it's employees a decent earned wage let them take it up with the safari company.
The company could add this amount into it's daily rate yet opts not to. So they may stay competitive in rates, gleening the most for themselves.

I have two big problems with tipping for hunting.

1. I don't make a lot, but have Rolex taste on a Casio budget. So I am usually really stretched when the hunt is over and the tipping process is about to start. I beleive the price of the hunt is the price of the hunt. I want to tip it's up to me. I had never thought about tipping after I got home, that makes a lot of sense. That way you can ensure that your animals will get to you.

2. Far too many wealthy hunters have fouled the gene pool and over tipped way too many times. This is how we have 15-30% tips in Asia, Swarovski Binoculars expected plus the tip, my PH in Africa asked me about my camera constantly.

Some day I won't be able to afford this sport, and I have averaged a $10K increase in salary every two years.

2.

I don´t, and never will, be a big tipper. The costs of hunting take a lot out of the family budget so I tip moderately. If some rich guy wants to impress his PH by giving him thousands of dollars good for him -it still smells a bit of trying to buy a friend.

I do not like tipping and will never tip a PH that is also the owner of the operation. I also worry about receiving my trophies if I don't tip. That was the only reason I tipped last fall and I still haven't heard anything about where they are in the chain. If anyone is going to Reno and hears a great explosion it will be me and my big mouth at the outfitters booth!

I also only tip 10% in a restaurant the H*ll with 15%+. My first job was bussing in a restaurant and it was 10% then and a good dinner cost about $2.95. The menu prices have gone up and so the 10% is more also.

I don't like the fact that tipping is expected; however, I don't have a problem tipping if the service is good. I've only had the privlage of going on one guided hunt for Caribou. The hunting was terrible, which was not the guides fault. I did get a caribou, and that is when we found out the guide had no experience field preperation of animals. This lack of experience combined with other things didn't have me willing to tip much. There were six of us in camp that week and we all tipped the same "to be fair", but we were divided about the amount being too much. There were some problems/circumstances that made the whole trip a bust, some outfitter and some guide. Two of the people in the hunting party had been on this hunt 2 years prior and a video of the hunt was produced, which was one of the reasons I went.

Of course there is a lot more to the story, but this is not the approprate thread

That's the problem with resturants is that everyone is expected to tip. So then the waitresses hourly wage is like 2 dollars. So the resturants get off without paying their waitresses hardly anything.

I think all tipping should be stopped in restuarants and then the owners would have to pay their workers a decent wage or they wouldnt have any help.

Of course that is the problem with just about all businesses is that they want to keep to much of the profits for themselves and dont want to pay their employees anything. Then they wonder why they cant keep help and are always having to find new help.
Their Greedy that's why.

I also liked the idea of tipping after the trophies are safely in my possesion, don't know how this would go over with the camp staff and most PH's. I thought the comments were very interesting. It really is a shame that some outfitters pay their employees less and think it is ok because of tips. If this isn't stopped the hunting industry will become like the restaurant industry which would be a shame. Also when tipping it is important to realize that your tip will directly affect how the next hunters tip is percieved and the subsequent treatment he gets. I thought the figure of 5% of the daily rate for basic service and up from there with a max of 15% if you had the best trip of your life. I thought the comment of a PH likes some of your equipment(and you are willing to part with it) it should be up to him if he wants it as part of his tip but less cash will be given.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
That's the problem with resturants is that everyone is expected to tip. So then the waitresses hourly wage is like 2 dollars. So the resturants get off without paying their waitresses hardly anything.

I think all tipping should be stopped in restuarants and then the owners would have to pay their workers a decent wage or they wouldnt have any help.

Of course that is the problem with just about all businesses is that they want to keep to much of the profits for themselves and dont want to pay their employees anything. Then they wonder why they cant keep help and are always having to find new help.
Their Greedy that's why.

When I was fresh out of college I took a job managing a restaurant. I hated the idea of tipping and suggested to the head waitress that we stop accepting tips and I just put the tip price into the meal. She suggested I bring it up at the wait staff meeting the next morning, so I did. I’ve never been closer to being tarred and feathered than I was right then. The head waitress never said a word, but she just about burst a blood vessel trying not to laugh out loud. The staff said they’d all quit right then and there if I even thought about it.

Tipping is ingrained into our culture, and here’s a dirty little secret why. Everybody I know who works for tips thinks they give above average service, and thinks they’ll get above average tips, and they don’t want you screwing with it.

Jarrod, the waitress’ hourly wage is NOT $2.00, that’s the part paid by the restaurant. The actual hourly wage is between 6 and 15 TIMES that, most of it not reported as income.

So “just about all businesses†don’t want to pay anything, can’t keep help, and are always having to find new help? Have you ever RUN a business? Employees stay or leave for all kinds of reasons, but you’d probably be surprised to find out that money is almost NEVER the reason they leave.

And as for businesses wanting to keep the profits for themselves, and being greedy, well what the hell do YOU do for a living? Where do you think the money for your paycheck comes from, bud? Profits are what’s left over after everybody gets paid, and you’re dammned right I want to keep them, ‘cause the profits are MINE! Sometimes there are lots, if I’ve done my job right. Sometimes there aren’t any profits at all, or even NEGATIVE profits, usually referred to as losses. I’ve never once seen employees lining up to fork over their paychecks when that happens.

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
That's the problem with resturants is that everyone is expected to tip. So then the waitresses hourly wage is like 2 dollars. So the resturants get off without paying their waitresses hardly anything.

I think all tipping should be stopped in restuarants and then the owners would have to pay their workers a decent wage or they wouldnt have any help.

Of course that is the problem with just about all businesses is that they want to keep to much of the profits for themselves and dont want to pay their employees anything. Then they wonder why they cant keep help and are always having to find new help.
Their Greedy that's why.

$2 maybe in 1950. Minimum wage applies no matter where you are.

In Australia waiters and bartenders get paid more so Aussies don't tip.

In Spain they get paid maybe E800 a month, but no one tips.

I 1950 I am not sure the government had their hand into bussiness so far as to have min. wage, but I made .25 USD as a bus boy. There are restaurants in the US people pay to work at because the tips are sooo good. The required tip reporting is 8% of the employees checks and I gaurantee the average is much better than that. No restaurant waite staff would want to do away with tipping. I have tlked to college students waiting tables at TGIF etc and they make (part time) $400-500 a week.

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jarrod:
That's the problem with resturants is that everyone is expected to tip. So then the waitresses hourly wage is like 2 dollars. So the resturants get off without paying their waitresses hardly anything.

I think all tipping should be stopped in restuarants and then the owners would have to pay their workers a decent wage or they wouldnt have any help.

Of course that is the problem with just about all businesses is that they want to keep to much of the profits for themselves and dont want to pay their employees anything. Then they wonder why they cant keep help and are always having to find new help.
Their Greedy that's why.

$2 maybe in 1950. Minimum wage applies no matter where you are.

In Australia waiters and bartenders get paid more so Aussies don't tip.

In Spain they get paid maybe E800 a month, but no one tips.[/QUOTE



It "Minimum Wage" doesnt apply to those who work for tips. That's why I've seen several restuarants hiring for like 2.50 an hour plus tips.

quote:

Originally posted by formerflyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Jarrod:
That's the problem with resturants is that everyone is expected to tip. So then the waitresses hourly wage is like 2 dollars. So the resturants get off without paying their waitresses hardly anything.

I think all tipping should be stopped in restuarants and then the owners would have to pay their workers a decent wage or they wouldnt have any help.

Of course that is the problem with just about all businesses is that they want to keep to much of the profits for themselves and dont want to pay their employees anything. Then they wonder why they cant keep help and are always having to find new help.
Their Greedy that's why.

When I was fresh out of college I took a job managing a restaurant. I hated the idea of tipping and suggested to the head waitress that we stop accepting tips and I just put the tip price into the meal. She suggested I bring it up at the wait staff meeting the next morning, so I did. I’ve never been closer to being tarred and feathered than I was right then. The head waitress never said a word, but she just about burst a blood vessel trying not to laugh out loud. The staff said they’d all quit right then and there if I even thought about it.

Tipping is ingrained into our culture, and here’s a dirty little secret why. Everybody I know who works for tips thinks they give above average service, and thinks they’ll get above average tips, and they don’t want you screwing with it.

Jarrod, the waitress’ hourly wage is NOT $2.00, that’s the part paid by the restaurant. The actual hourly wage is between 6 and 15 TIMES that, most of it not reported as income.

So “just about all businesses†don’t want to pay anything, can’t keep help, and are always having to find new help? Have you ever RUN a business? Employees stay or leave for all kinds of reasons, but you’d probably be surprised to find out that money is almost NEVER the reason they leave.

And as for businesses wanting to keep the profits for themselves, and being greedy, well what the hell do YOU do for a living? Where do you think the money for your paycheck comes from, bud? Profits are what’s left over after everybody gets paid, and you’re dammned right I want to keep them, ‘cause the profits are MINE! Sometimes there are lots, if I’ve done my job right. Sometimes there aren’t any profits at all, or even NEGATIVE profits, usually referred to as losses. I’ve never once seen employees lining up to fork over their paychecks when that happens.

I wasnt meaning that the 2 dollars am hour is all they get total.
Yes my stepdad had a couple businesses when I was a teenager and I helped with a lot of it and a few things since then. Small operations I remind you.
We never had any problem with our employees.
My stepdad paid them a fair wage, he was good to them and he helped them out if they needed it.
I know there are people that quit jobs for all kinds of reasons. Boss is an asshole, cant get along with co-workers etc. etc. , but I have met a lot of people in my short time who have quit their jobs for better pay. I dont know what business you work in but you obviously havent been around many low paying businesses.
They were talking about not too long ago that a single mother with 2 children who works at wal-mart as a cashier or something making a similar wage doesnt even make enough to get their basic needs without the help of someone or the government. You tell me if they got offered a higher paying job they wouldnt take it.

I'm not saying that you shouldnt keep the profits for yourself, I wasnt clear enough on that. What I was saying is that a lot of business owners want to keep all the profits for themselves. Then some of their workers "you know the people who keeps their business going anyway and without them you wouldnt have a business" end up having to live in public housing or some run down place because they cant even afford rent. Then if they get a little behind, they have to make a choice rather they want to eat or pay their rent. You know what I'm talking about.

You know though it's usually easy to spot people who have never been the employee. Most businesses owners I know who have been an employee before they were the employer is usually the difference in daylight and dark. That's been my experience.
A lot of people who have never been an employee before dont understand what it is like top be on the other side of the fence.
Same way with a lot of army officers. The ones who were enlisted before they were officers understand what it is like to be enlisted.

If you've ever been an employee making minimum wage and tried to survive off of it then you understand some of what I'm talking about. If not then you have not a clue.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I 1950 I am not sure the government had their hand into bussiness so far as to have min. wage, but I made .25 USD as a bus boy. There are restaurants in the US people pay to work at because the tips are sooo good. The required tip reporting is 8% of the employees checks and I gaurantee the average is much better than that. No restaurant waite staff would want to do away with tipping. I have tlked to college students waiting tables at TGIF etc and they make (part time) $400-500 a week.

Yeah I've talked to people at some of the restuarants like TGIF, Montana Grill etc. and some of them said they make $400-500 a week and that's not bad for part-time work.
Most hourly jobs though are a lot less than that. A lot of them are about half that for full time.

I work during the hunting season for an Outfitter in Montana as a guide for Elk... Tips are a very nice reward. I never expect them. There are how ever times that I think I have gone above and beyond to earn them. As an example..... This past season I had a hunter whom some of you would know. It was a 1x1 hunt. We hunted hard all week. Chased a nice 5x6 for the last 2 days of his hunt. He finaly shot it in the last hour of light on the last day. I had to cape it out with a flash light. Come back the next day (it was my day off) pack it out,take it to a processing plant,and him to the motel. (He got a extra free night with lodging and meals) When we parted company he said that he had been thinking about my tip.... That stopped me in my tracks. He told me he would send it to me when he got back to Ohio. That was in November. Well you know the old saying.....Any ways I will think twice about going out of my way on my time to help a hunter out when its coming out of my pocket. I know he paid for his hunt. He dident pay for my day off. Not compaining but just to let hunters know that some times we do go out of our way to accomidate them........On the other side of the coin...I returned this past month from my 1st hunt in Africa. The food wasent so hot, The big trophy buffalo were not there. The P.H. I had ,did do a great job for me and I was more than pleased to give him what I thought was a nice tip. The rest of the party and I did tip the rest of the staff, but it wasent what the Safari operator had written (yes he put it in black and white) out and had priced the tipping according to what he thought we should pay....Two sides of the same coin. The way I see it ! Happy New year to all !!!

leemar you may not like hearing this BUT except for your day off that is your job. And as for the day off you should've been paid by your boss not the client.
Someone writes down in B&W what I am expected to tip "their" help and I'm going to be leaving camp with extra $ in MY wallet.

Ok here come the flames! I am a Guide I do not and few guides ever expect a tip ( we allways hope! ) In this world some things are done a certin way ie, we usually tip folks in the service industry. Wait staff, hotel staff ect. I as others have stated do not make alot of Money, I do some hunting and fishing trips and I PLAN into the cost of the trip gratuities! I have relized as I have gotten older what a large diferance just a few dollars makes for the person reciveing a tip. I get to be a good guy someone they are happy to see agian. ( I think they might be anyway ) Well its almost new years so let the fire works begin, if you really feel strongly tell me at the vegas SCI giraffe bar

Here is my 2 cents on the issue.

This year I was a first year guide with a fly fishing company in Montana. I had to provide for clients.

1. Drift Boat
2. Vechicle to Pull Drift Boat
3. Rods/Reels and all fishing stuff

I had to pay for all that plus I had to pay for my gas and the shuttle service (The shuttle was $20) and non-alcoholic beverages. Also there was my guide license and insurance (2 million dollar policy). I got paid a $150 a Day. I had it figured out that my bottom line was around $118 for 12 hours of my time. (That was after the gas, shuttle, and beverages expense) My normal tip averaged $50 so I was making $168 a day for around 12-13 hours worth of work. The guided trip was 8-10 hours, but you also have to prepare for the trip and clean your driftboat after that. I counted on the tip after the end of the day to recoup some of the expenses.

Even though I had all these expenses I still do not feel that tipping is right. I would rather have gotten paid $200 dollars a day and then took my expenses out of it. "Why??" Because even if I work my but off everyday rowing a boat, switching flies and having the people catch fish, I don't always get a tip. It is not worth my 12 hours to only make $118 BEFORE TAXES + BUY EVERYTHING. Yes, I am out on the river which is a very nice job, but the $118 doesn't pay the bills and it doesn't pay all of the start up costs of getting into the business
I have had tips that only take care of my shuttle cost $20, to tips in the $100 range. I have had some friends that have been tipped more than that for one day of guiding. (I don't feel thats right)

Do I like being a Fly Fishing Guide???...Damn Right I Do, I would consider it one of the best jobs in the world. I love meeting new people and spending a day on the river. I do understand that I lost money on the job this year but hopefully next year I will make more money.

I don't think tipping will ever change.

Know who I get really pissed off at of always wanting a tip??? The 5 million porters in the Joberg Airport that swarm on you when you step through the doors. I know where to go and don't need 10 people to carry my 3 pieces of luggage.

Cats you are correct. I do my job. I like my days off. I dont mind saving a hunter a $100 bucks or so by having him stay in camp for an extra day. I like packing out elk (I realy like it when I get paid for it). Its just part of the hunt. You dont (at least I dont ) get a hourly wage. I get paid for the season. Flat rate. 5 day hunts. You should try it sometime. Tips are a nice gesture and a way of saying thanks for a job well done. I tip the way I want to. Not what some one expects or demands as was in my African hunt.......Have a Safe new years

quote:

Originally posted by sierrabravo45:
Here is my 2 cents on the issue.

This year I was a first year guide with a fly fishing company in Montana. I had to provide for clients.

1. Drift Boat
2. Vechicle to Pull Drift Boat
3. Rods/Reels and all fishing stuff

I had to pay for all that plus I had to pay for my gas and the shuttle service (The shuttle was $20) and non-alcoholic beverages. Also there was my guide license and insurance (2 million dollar policy). I got paid a $150 a Day. I had it figured out that my bottom line was around $118 for 12 hours of my time. (That was after the gas, shuttle, and beverages expense) My normal tip averaged $50 so I was making $168 a day for around 12-13 hours worth of work. The guided trip was 8-10 hours, but you also have to prepare for the trip and clean your driftboat after that. I counted on the tip after the end of the day to recoup some of the expenses.

Even though I had all these expenses I still do not feel that tipping is right. I would rather have gotten paid $200 dollars a day and then took my expenses out of it. "Why??" Because even if I work my but off everyday rowing a boat, switching flies and having the people catch fish, I don't always get a tip. It is not worth my 12 hours to only make $118 BEFORE TAXES + BUY EVERYTHING. Yes, I am out on the river which is a very nice job, but the $118 doesn't pay the bills and it doesn't pay all of the start up costs of getting into the business
I have had tips that only take care of my shuttle cost $20, to tips in the $100 range. I have had some friends that have been tipped more than that for one day of guiding. (I don't feel thats right)

Sierra ,You outline what appears to me loosing business model.
Unless you lowball to stay competitive - which I am sure is often a problem.

But the bottom line, all costs + expected profit should be within the quoted price of a service.

SO for my thinking ,all your calculations just show how misused the tip expectations are.

I am not attacking you personally, matter of fact agree with your overall sentiments.

Most people that earn their money from actual work feel uncomfortable on the tipping issue.
They want to renumerate decently but not feel victimized by unreasonable expectations.Some or many also feel that tips should not be given for services rendered,thats in the price of a normal business.
Many emphasize ,tips are for excellent service beyond expectations,but then still tip for average- because they know its expected or customary - from their culture.

As we probably will not change these settings,its best to look at tips- if and when expected- as part of the overall cost of a trip.
Thereby making it non elective ,so to speak.

Sheephunter,

You are right, I did lose money being a guide this year, and its a losing business plan. There are a lot of upfront costs that you have to put forward, and the first year on a job is always hard. I had it figured that I need 58 Days on the river to totally break even on the boat, fishing stuff, and extras (that was with a $50 a day tip). I didn't have anywheres close to that in guiding days. So the first year working for an outfitter, I did lose. Hopefully next year it will be better.

I always tried to give 110% to the client whether they were a expert or just a beginner. I was working to give them one of there best days fly fishing. I always felt that tips were a nice bonus, but never a neccessity.

The great thing is I do get to write off my driftboat and fly rods of my income tax....Its a business expense.

sierrabravo45. from the way you talked you income was very low so writting off the boat etc. it may have saved you 5 to 15 cents on the dollar spent, if this makes you happy great, but don't buy these items for the tax write off the only guy that wins is the person you buy them from.

leemar28, I don't know how old you are but you spund relative young and have been able to go to Africa on safari, I personally was 61 yrs old when I could do my first Africian trip. Yes I am one of those guys with "all the money" but it took me many years to get there and send 2 kids thru 4 yrs each of college with out any aid from big brother. Some of us have paid their dues. I am not complaining or boasting just my experience. Please understand I am happy for you and maybe some day when I can afford a montana elk hunt you will guide me, eh.

Die Ou Jagter, Glad you think I'm young !!! (at heart may be I am) 50 is lookin me in the eye. If you ever want to go on a Elk hunt let me know . Congradulations on geeting kids through school !!!