I'm surprised at how quickly many of you jumped all over the hunter. The guy goes through the whole hunt and apparently doesn't see an elephant or even dung? That sounds fishy to me, of course the hunter could be lying.

This is also a symptom of the modern very specific very expensive safari. If Hemingway didn't get a Kudu then big deal he shot dozens of other animals. You pay $30,000 to shoot one animal and don't even see one, that is tough to swallow.

I didn't get a deer this year on my Pennsylvania deer hunt and while that was disappointing my financial investment was very little. Had I paid $10,000 for the hunt that would have stung a whole lot.

If I'm an outfitter hunting an area all season and there isn't even elephant dung around I know I need to call the client and either try to reschedule, get a new area, or offer other game instead.

If I show up for a buffalo hunt and the outfitter hasn't seen any in a month than let me know and offer a tuskless cow instead for example.

Now the outfitter might have gotten this guy on to 20 shootable bulls and the guy couldn't close the deal but that doesn't sound like the case.

Much depends on how the first hunt was represented, and whether there was a reasonable expectation that the client would encounter elephants in that area. "They were here in abundance last week" does a client no good.

There is a lot of puffery on the part of booking agents and outfitters, and a lot of fraud, as well. Likewise, there are clients who cannot be satisfied, or are frauds themselves.

Let's see how this pans out (my guess is that a quiet settlement will take place).

George

I hunted with Alex Kirkman several years ago om a hunt in Zimbabwe and I can't say he didn't do this to the guy, but it sure doesn't sound like the Alex Kirkman I hunted with. He really went out of his way to make myself and my son have a wonderful hunt. Actually he went above and beyond what I would call a typical hunt. IHe made us feel like family during our hunt and even had us stay a few extra days to enjoy our stay without a charge.
I will definitely hunt with Alex again when the time comes that I can go again.

I would hope things get rectified and Alex is innocent in all this. As others have said, I see way too many people expecting too much these days. Some of these people expect to have the animal tied up to a stake so they can shoot it and then brag to there brethern about how hard they hunted. Lots of crybabies out there.
WW

Mike, I am willing to represent you on a pro bono basis if Buzzer does not produce on your next trip. I think you should put a minimum poundage in the contract for your next tusker to keep him honest. As the saying goes "Familiarity breeds contempt".

This is one we will never solve. to much fraud out there ,and too many a-holes walking around with no honor. When you spend 20 k up on a hunt
you would expect to at least seen some sigh of the game you were looking for.

If I sold you a wild quail hunt in south louisiana ,I would indeed betaking your money, yes there are some wild quail here ,but not enought to hunt.

If I took you to texas but you were only able to walk for 10 minutes you would not come home with any quial.


We will most likely never know the truth on this one.


JD

Hold your horses guys - there seems to be more (as usual) to it...

Anyway - I've tried and snif up on some Polish sites - and I may give you some bits and pieces...unofficial ofcourse.

Guy did his first hunt in 07 for Buff (not sure but my guess is with Lowveld Hunters) - all went well so he expressed a wish to get an Ele as well. It wasn't possible on that hunt, tho he was offered it for an 08...and he actualy booked that hunt through the Berlin agency to do the hunt with Lowveld Hunters and particular PH in particular area...he ended up stranded on HRE int. with no-show from Lowveld Hunters...instead after 2 hours a guy from Mopani turned up and took him hunting to/with :

1.entire different outfiter
2.entire different area with
3.entire different PH with
4.no Ele at the end ...

I'll guess over 10 pages for this one.

Lots more questions now to be answered.

Where were Lowveld hunters ? Were they contacted/hired at all ?
Was the P/H who picked him up from Mopani at all ? If the booking was all wrong then this guy may have a case.

Lots of guff so far on this thread, but not much real information.

If as 93mouse says, everything was changed when the bloke was picked up at the airport, even more questions.

On the face of it, sounds like the agent may have a lot to answer for.

As for booking an elephant hunt and not even SEEING an elephant, or even seeing spoor (allegedly), you have to be joking, that that is an acceptable hunt.

Just off the phone with Alex. He had no idea of any legal issue regarding this failed elephant hunt. He recalls having a polish elephant hunter in 2008 that did not get his elephant. The hunt was in the mountains and although the hunter vas very fit and they hunted hard they did not contact with a trophy elephant.
I have hunted with Alex twice (not for elephant) in the same area and have seen shoot able elephants. Hunting there and not seeing elephant activity is nonsense.
Hunting is hunting
Good hunting
Carl Frederik

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
Just off the phone with Alex. He had no idea of any legal issue regarding this failed elephant hunt. He recalls having a polish elephant hunter in 2008 that did not get his elephant. The hunt was in the mountains and although the hunter vas very fit and they hunted hard they did not contact with a trophy elephant.
I have hunted with Alex twice (not for elephant) in the same area and have seen shoot able elephants. Hunting there and not seeing elephant activity is nonsense.
Hunting is hunting
Good hunting
Carl Frederik

You don't mention the concession or area where the Polish guy's hunt took place?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
Just off the phone with Alex. He had no idea of any legal issue regarding this failed elephant hunt. He recalls having a polish elephant hunter in 2008 that did not get his elephant. The hunt was in the mountains and although the hunter vas very fit and they hunted hard they did not contact with a trophy elephant.
I have hunted with Alex twice (not for elephant) in the same area and have seen shoot able elephants. Hunting there and not seeing elephant activity is nonsense.
Hunting is hunting
Good hunting
Carl Frederik

You don't mention the concession or area where the Polish guy's hunt took place?

Muzarabani.


Carl Frederik

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
Lots of guff so far on this thread, but not much real information.

Your type of thread NitroX

Seriously, I think if you are going to outlay shitloads of money in the 3rd world for any reason you accept the risks.

A unilateral change in the area alone is grounds for a lawsuit. When a client books a hunt in area A, you can't substitute area B without consent (and a very good explanation), and if you do, the area had better be as good or better than the original. If you pull a stunt like this, and the hunt fails, well shame on you for taking the client's money, you deserve a lawsuit or worse.

Changing the PH is probably not grounds for a lawsuit, unless the contract specifies person A, and if it does, then the outfitter was stupid to sign that contract. PHs are hired hands, they come and go, they get injured, they get jailed (this once happened to me), some get killed. If you guarantee a named PH you are a fool.

"Quota sold out" is also not acceptable. The whole purpose of putting down a deposit is TO SECURE QUOTA as well as a time slot. Before paying a deposit, you should get a written guarantee that quota will be reserved. Even if you don't have a contract, send a letter with the deposit stating "cashing this deposit acknowledges that quota x for species y in area a has been reserved specifically for this hunt ... if that is not the case, DO NOT DEPOSIT (or return) the deposit IMMEDIATELY). Right now, we are not booking management elephant hunts in Zim, as the quota/price issue is not settled with Parks. We know there will be quota, we just don't know how much.

The reserving of quota is the same logic the outfitter uses for not returning your deposit if you don't show up ...he has to then try to sell that quota on short notice and at best, he will have to discount it. Don't let these guys get away with "quota not avaliable" BS, ever.

The mistake a lot of hunters make is they don't make their objections clear until the hunt fails. They are on the ground, they are hyped up, and they hope for the best. If unilateral changes materialize on your hunt, you have two options: one, cancel the hunt immediately, and inform the operator that you are expecting a full refund including the cost of your airfare/hotels etc; or two, continue with the hunt but reserve your rights (write a letter on the spot, or make it clear in front of neutral witnesses) that you expect compensation up to and including a full refund if the unilateral action of the operator leads to disappointment; and in this latter case, do not proceed unless the operator says OK in front of witnesses, or signs your letter. The worst thing you can do is to fume silently.

Outfitters do try to pull these stunts from time to time, and they usually get away with it. But then they try their luck once too often and it leads to grief.

As an agent, I can tell you it's extremely embarrassing when an outfitter fails to deliver what he promised to deliver. This puts the agent on the spot, brings his reputation into question, and makes him the target of a potential lawsuit, even though he had no control over what happened on the ground, and his commission amounts to about 5% of the total safari cost in Zim. My policy, in such cases, is to summarily drop the outfitter.

There was a time when I used to cut people some slack, but as I get older, I learn that it's better to cut and run at the first sign of trouble. Where there's smoke, there is FIRE>

I generally agree. However some times there may be good reasons for changes. Illness,injury or death of a ph or his family. A major fire just before the hunt or a major drought could do it as well.

Don't automatically assume the worst.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
The mistake a lot of hunters make is they don't make their objections clear until the hunt fails. They are on the ground, they are hyped up, and they hope for the best. If unilateral changes materialize on your hunt, you have two options: one, cancel the hunt immediately, and inform the operator that you are expecting a full refund including the cost of your airfare/hotels etc; or two, continue with the hunt but reserve your rights (write a letter on the spot, or make it clear in front of neutral witnesses) that you expect compensation up to and including a full refund if the unilateral action of the operator leads to disappointment; and in this latter case, do not proceed unless the operator says OK in front of witnesses, or signs your letter. The worst thing you can do is to fume silently.

1. I could sympathize with such a hunter. He/she has come a long way and paid a lot of money to hunt perhaps on a very tight schedule. The trip has probably been planned and looked forward to for a long time. Maybe it's a mistake, as you say, not to make their objections known but it in no way excuses the obligations of the purveyor of the hunt and I can well see how canceling the hunt would lead to overwhelming disappointment.

2. It would be good to get a statement in front of witnesses but I don't know how much good witnesses several thousand miles away are going to be especially if they're friends of the safari operator and decide to change their story. Signing a letter would be good if the operator will do so.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by Russ Gould:
The mistake a lot of hunters make is they don't make their objections clear until the hunt fails. They are on the ground, they are hyped up, and they hope for the best. If unilateral changes materialize on your hunt, you have two options: one, cancel the hunt immediately, and inform the operator that you are expecting a full refund including the cost of your airfare/hotels etc; or two, continue with the hunt but reserve your rights (write a letter on the spot, or make it clear in front of neutral witnesses) that you expect compensation up to and including a full refund if the unilateral action of the operator leads to disappointment; and in this latter case, do not proceed unless the operator says OK in front of witnesses, or signs your letter. The worst thing you can do is to fume silently.

1. I could sympathize with such a hunter. He/she has come a long way and paid a lot of money to hunt perhaps on a very tight schedule. The trip has probably been planned and looked forward to for a long time. Maybe it's a mistake, as you say, not to make their objections known but it in no way excuses the obligations of the purveyor of the hunt and I can well see how canceling the hunt would lead to overwhelming disappointment.

2. It would be good to get a statement in front of witnesses but I don't know how much good witnesses several thousand miles away are going to be especially if they're friends of the safari operator and decide to change their story. Signing a letter would be good if the operator will do so.

Russ is right and any reputable operator will compensate or refund. Alternatively get on the sat phone and call your agent.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I almost had sex with Selma Hayak last night. I had a hard-on but couldn't find her. Do I sue her or her agent?

Rich

Sorry. It was my turn. I'm surprised nobody who invested into the pool filled you in about the order it was going to happen.

Stopped by the club. You're penciled in for Tuesday next. Selma says she's been a naughty girl and you need to bring the cricket bat.

I don`t know the ins and outs of this case,but I do know Alex Kirkman, I hunted with him first in 1995 as a client and a few times more up to 2002 as a friend, and would stake all I own on him NOT ripping anyone off or stitching anyone up !
I `d trust him with anything I book in Zim 100%.
Alex and everyone who works for him gives 100% effort for 100% 0f your stay with them.
I`ve seen some things on hunting forums and I wonder how it tarnishes/affects someones reputation,and when I see a friend mentioned/inplicated I hope it doesn`t affect Alex.

ISS
At your age you ought to be gratefull for the hard-on.

This reminds me of a Polish kipnapping- the bad guys kidnap a child, and send him home to his parents with a ransom note. He then returns to the kidnappers with the money, case closed!!!

john.d.m. IMO nobody is blaming Alex - I guess he was just "babysitting and changing dipers on neighbours' kid" with an empty fridge...

Anyway - supposedly - Polish guy did get compensation and shot an Ele later on - it was an crop raider by night tho...and only after that he decided to go back and make a mess...appearently we know squat - lets wait and see what/if anything comes out of that?