http://www.huntingreport.com/africa_gun_import_procedures_temp.cfm



http://www.huntingreport.com/worldupdate.cfm?articleid=189

Does this mean that my S&W Mod.642, w/ 1 7/8in. bbl. will need to be classified as
for "hunting purposes" ?

Does this restriction of self- defense handguns concern anyone else?

Les

I must ask, why would you want a gun with a 1 7/8 inch barrel in Africa? What are you going to hunt with it? If you are a handgun hunter (nothing wrong with that), surely you would be using a gun with a bit more barrel. I'd hate to be trying for a nice Kudu with that thing at 65 yards. So what's the purpose?

Arts,

I guess my humor was a little too subtle.

While I never, knowingly, was in need of a self defense weapon, during my last visit. We did drive all across South Africa and having something handy was at least some comfort.

Les

Folks,

Looking at the list of documents the would be hunter is required to take over, one of the items mentioned is: Proof of Export; Documentary proof of export from the country of origin"

Any idea what they are looking for? HM Customs & Excise suggested that if I pre printed a suitable letter they would put an offical stamp on it as i left the country..does that sound like it would work?

Also I am sure on a previous thread it was mentioned that there is a facility for applying online about 6 weeks before your intended trip..Is this the case and if so does anybody have the site address??

Regards,

Pete

PeteE & Guests



Some people are making a simple task quite difficult IMHO ...



The rules are quite clear and the reality is apart from SOME delays OFTEN caused by clients themselves not taking the advice we are telling them.



I have had two diverse groups transfer through Jo-burg internationl airport in the past 10 days. One group of four hunters ( 2 with rifles ) were in transit to Pietertsburg airport with a 1hr 50 minute window open to tranfer planes, the group made it OK with assistance from Optima Business Services, $35 per person cost.



My other client was a blackpowder hunter whom overnighted @ Afton and transfered out the following day to Livingstone.



All clients were TOLD to get their 4457 customs form completed with a local area customs agent a [couple of days prior to their departure] from JFK and Atlanta as the case might be. Take rifles with you to the customs agent so he can transfer the serial numbers and other information to the form.



I sent them a basic covering letter on comapny letterhead stating the hunt dates and clients information etc.



Clients were all sent a copy ( 8 pages ) of the SAPS 520 import / export forms to complete prior to arrival, although that was not necessary as both groups were assisted with meet and greet services whom take the heartache out of the process totally



In summary then, you either do it alone with the information I have provided or you spend a pittance of $35 and get a meet and greet service arranged.



DONT SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF, pay the money and sit back is my advice, but being human nature some will ignore me and go it alone, good luck and hope it all goes well for you.



PS: The 4457 was in all cases accepted as prooof of ownership. If you are not from the USA just make sure you have some officially stamped proof of ownership, common sense should prevail in this regard



Regards, Peter

You inadvertantly bring out a couple of interesting points. 1) I wonder what a guy does regarding 4457 forms for Black powder guns, as many of them are not serial numbered (because the BATF does not consider them firearms, believe it or not). Customs does NOT issue 4457's for anything not having a serial number. 2) Black powder is considered an explosive, and from all I can acertain, cannot, under any circumstances, bet transported on a plane. Can black powder be obtained with any degree of ease in RSA, or other African countries?

Peter,

I think he was more concerned with the requirement for a document from [the US?] authorizing the export of the firearm, as well as all the other documentation. It seems unlikely that any of the "meet and greet" services could provide this.
In addition note the requirement for a letter from the hunter stating the purpose of his trip and the reason for bringing firearms into the country. This is a new item isn't it?

Les

Les & Arts



Les:



There are always exceptions to the rule, the key is [ get the basics right] and the rest will fall into place.



There is never a PERFECT solution in life as officials can at times interpret things to suit themselves as we all know. That is why I personally recommend [meet and greet] as the authorities cant as easy manipulate them as they can a client whom might not be as streetwise in Africa idiosyncracies.



The letter is a basically some sort of proof that a client has booked a hunt hopefully with a legal outfitter, if you check with PHASA whom controls hunting in SA that lettter was required before the new guns regs came into place, so it is in fact not a new requirement perse'.



WE have killed this one dead before BUT essentially the 4457 is realy only proof that a rifle camera binos etc was exported from the USA and so when the client returns it shows he did not buy the items overseas and thefore are able to be re-imported duty free back into the USA. It also covers for the SA authorities as proof of ownership. Of cource you can take gun licence and any other prooof of ownership documents you might have in your possession BUT from all acoounts they are not a pre-requisite at this point in time.

Quote:

---

You inadvertantly bring out a couple of interesting points. 1) I wonder what a guy does regarding 4457 forms for Black powder guns, as many of them are not serial numbered (because the BATF does not consider them firearms, believe it or not). Customs does NOT issue 4457's for anything not having a serial number. 2) Black powder is considered an explosive, and from all I can acertain, cannot, under any circumstances, bet transported on a plane. Can black powder be obtained with any degree of ease in RSA, or other African countries?

---

Arts;



Butch works for Dixie Guns Works and his rifles do have serial numbers, I dont know if they are imported from Europe or not BUT he took them to customs and got the info transferred to 4457 form, it was accepted by the SA authorities for the overnight in Jo-burg and we also applied for the Zambian special permit from Police in Lusaka OK ... You know there is a book of rules and there is reality, sometime the two dont always match up, but that we must live with. AS I say even if all is done 100% to the rules a SOB arragant official in authority can still try it on sometimes !!



Blackpowder can be obtained in SA, I dont know what loads Butch had with him, but he said he was going to try Hodgdon's Triple 7 powder for his loads !!



Peter

Balla Balla--I think maybe you misunderstood my question. I know full well what the 4457 is actually for, and also know that it is what RSA (and most countries of the world) regard as ownership proof and "license" for a gun. The problem potentially lies in the fact that many muzzle loaders don't have serial numbers, and US Customs won't issue a 4457 for anything without serial numbers, so--what does one have to show RSA customs regarding the muzzle loader? I'm sure that they consider it a gun, even though BATF does not consider it a firearm, hence no serial number requirement. So, the question is, how does one get the RSA temporary permit with no documentation, i.e. no 4457? The owner doesn't have any license to show. I'm not planning on taking a muzzle loader to Africa, but plans do change, plus I'm curious.

Arts

Butch took his Pedersoli .45-70 side-by-side and Heym .30-06 over/under,
[ both have extra 20 gauge shotgun barrels ] to the cutoms chap in Nashville TN and YES the rifles have serial numbers OK. Maybe he took the Soooooouthern Navy Jack flag with him to help seal the deal

Regards, Peter

Arts-
U.S. Customs will indeed issue a 4457 for items that do not have a serial number. I have one 4457 that lists "Six high capacity magazines (13 shot) for Browning Hi Power 9mm pistol. Magazines are marked 'Italy' and '9mm Luger/NATO' "
That one was issued about five years ago, the gun is on a separate 4457

I have another 4457 that lists "Four high capacity (15 shot) magazines for a Glock 19 pistol, 9mm. Magazines are marked 'Restricted LE/Govt Only' "
That one was issued this March (I went polymer recently), and again the gun is on a separate form which is not really necessary but I like to present forms that have only the items actually with me.

But if I had a black powder gun, I would probably engrave some number on it like my social security number or something that could be used as a serial number by countries that obsess over such things.

Jim

Gearhead, that's interesting. I have been told on 2 different occasions by the local (Reno) agents that they cannot list anything without a serial number on the 4457--and I should point out that I have found these guys to be friendly and helpful, not problem people. Apparently, as in many government situations, different folks interpret the rules differently.

I suspicioned that would be the way to go regarding a muzzle loader with no serial number--i.e. just put one on it.

Peter,

I have cut and pasted the text below from one of the links provided by bob in the first post...

2. Other Supporting Documentation

a. Proof of Ownership
Firearm licenses, documentary proof, etc. For USA Citizens, Customs Declaration Form 4457 (officially stamped) is acceptable
b. Proof of Export
Documentary proof of export from the country of origin.
U.S. Citizens see “a” above.
< !--color-->

As you rightly suggest, Form 4457 seems to cover the requirements of both a & b for US Citizens as it is a US Customs document.

Now I am from the UK...For Proof of ownership, I have my Firearms Certificate, so no problem there at all.

However it struck me that my Firearms Certificate may not meet the requirements for "Proof of Export" as it is something issued by our local Police and not HM Customs & Excise.

Now if the SAPS have taken the trouble to request a "Proof of Ownership" document seperately to "Proof of Export" document, I am just wondering how big a deal they are making over Proof of Export and what would they require. It seems they might be looking for a offical document that authorises you to temp export your firearm abroad??

Now me, you and other folks here might have an opinion of what a common sense approach might be, but with red tape and bureaucracy , common sense often has little to do with how these things are enforced especially if you run up against some bloody minded "Jobworth" official, hence my original question.

Regards,

Pete

PeteE



Most all my clients are from the good ol' USA, we have not had any from the UK to hunt with us recently or since the new regulations came into effect



I would hope that Steve [ Alias, Shakari ] reads this post as Steve being an ex: [ Prisoner Of Mother England ] will no doubt be able to offer you chapter and verse as applicable.



Steve is now based in KZN and he is up with the play on all the latest red tape issues @ the now infamous Jo-burg International airport and the Police authorities whom rule the roost.



Steve help please !!!



Regards, Peter