I posted this question on Buzz' thread titled "PHASA - where are you?" but no one has answered so I thought I'd start a new thread and hopefully get some clarity on this matter.

Let me start by posting an exerpt from an email I've received from a client who has hunted with me 3 times now. Together we've hunted almost every available species in South Africa and since our last visit together (end of last year) we've been busy planning his 4th hunt - this time for buffalo (again) and sable in a wild area... I've been promoting Zimbabwe for this hunt... This is the email I've just received from Paul.

"Hello Chris,

I just saw your questions on AR and so far, no one has directly answered you! I suspect, just as there is a strong "Africa is for blacks only" movement in many parts of the continent, there is a strong "Zimbabwe is for Zimbabweans only" sentiment including your PH colleagues from Zimbabwe! They had rather you SEND them a hunter to hunt with them, I suspect, than you accompany your client. In any capacity other than as a client yourself. Then you are paying them. And sending them a client. Milk and cream!

From a personal standpoint, as things stand now, I see little reason to anticipate a hunt in Zimbabwe for me. I do not need the increased scrutiny of my government re the Lacey Act in a country that does not recognize the rule of law and you don't need a jealous, unethical Zimbabwean PH telling AR readers ( or government officials ) you are there illegally even when you are not! This certainly can and may change as TIA, but right now, not a solid option. Most other African countries that offer hunting offer MUCH less risk of unscrupulous and illegal outfitters/PH's! (Zimbabwians) and inadvertent violation of the Lacey Act! Zimbabwe's biggest advantages its prices are lower than anywhere else but why be penny wise and pound foolish! An accidental felony by US laws and an anti-hunting US government that views me as a trophy would cost me 15-20 years as a practicing surgeon and to hell with that!

I have an issue with our (you and me) going where you are not supposed to get paid, carry a rifle, or use your vehicle for hunting, and have to pay an observer fee to walk with me! And can't actually hunt with me! Someone else in another country will be in a better position to get my business as I'm sure other places are more accommodating to you and your clients!

I am planning my next hunt in wild Africa with you and Sabina (CT Safaris)! As I hope you know!

I think our next buffalo hunt may be in Namibia with your friend the Caprivi IF that can work out. Good or bad, we have time to think about it then work out details. Sable can wait.

Cheers! We will work it out when it is time..."(email shortened)

Paul

Zimbos, I don't want to pick a fight with you. I have an enormous amount of respect for all of you who run quality operations and hunt in an ethical and legal manner - especially those who have in spite of all the challenges that your government has presented to you succeeded and continue to succeed. And I would love to bring you some business. But what I'm trying to bring across to you is that, based on the email from my friend above, you've just lost one excellent client for next year - not as result of unscrupulous SA Operators who hunt in your National Parks but because, if I understand some of the recent statements made here on the public board correctly, it is impossible for me to bring clients to you and get something back (financially) in return. And whilst one client may make no difference to any of you in the bigger scheme of things I'm sure that there are others who feel the same way... In spite of the fact that some consider us SA Operators as under-qualified "bakkie hunters" who got a PH license after a 11 day course, we also build up a rapport with our clients over the years and I can point you to several of my other clients who have the same loyalty towards me as Hunting Outfitter and PH as what Paul has. They will go hunting ANYWHERE where I suggest they do as long it is legal, falls within their financial means and as long as we can hunt together - both with rifle in hand...

Is this impossible to accomplish? Is it really necessary for me to pay you $250p/d in order to join MY client on their hunts? Are your laws so prescriptive that it actually determines how much you must charge me and what percentage commission you're allowed to pay me? And if that is the case - can you blame SA Operators for looking at other opportunities inside Zimbabwe like e.g. working with your black counterparts? And lastly; can you state for a fact that ALL the hunts offered by South fricans in Zim through your black colleagues are illegal?

Like I said - I don't want to pick a fight with you. These are honest questions and honest answers will assist me greatly in understanding your set-up better.

Chris

Since April, you and I have been corresponding about possible hunts. You have not, in 7 emails asked me what the charge is for an accompanying South African PH ( in this case yourself ). I have several emails from you a few of them RE a client friend of yours that hunted in an unknown area and he cannot get his leopard exported, below is one of your emails:


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Troskie [mailto:chris@ct-safaris.com]
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 7:18 AM
To: martin@bulembisafaris.co.zw
Subject: Re: Leopard Tags

Hi Martin,

The hunt took place at the beginning of August this year in the Gwayi /
Gwaai? Area. I'm not sure on which farm the cat was shot but do know that
the clt stayed in camp Selous and was hunting on Selous and neigbouring
farms. The clt shot an elephant and leopard. The PH forwarded him his
ivory
numbers after about a month and a half and was then informed that Hwange
(where the ivory #s were issued) had run out of leopard tags so the PH
had
to drive with the skin to Bulawayo to get the tag. Later the PH told him
that Bulawayo didn't have any tags either...

According to the PH there is no problem with the quota (the area had
quota).
The impression is created that it is the actual "tags" that are a problem
I.e Bulawayo and Hwange are out of stock of the physical tags.

The PH was Albert Paradsai and reference was made at some point to a
"Moneta" who is either the Outfitter or Landowner - I'm not sure where
last
mentioned fits in.

I wouldn't want to jeopardise my friend getting his trophies by having
too
many questions asked - especially not if the delay is typical to how
things
work in Africa... I just want to try and find out if my friend is being
lied
to and by whom. The guy he booked the hunt through claims he personally
phoned Bulawayo to find out if they had tags and was told "yes". He then
drove thru to Bulawayo with the skin just to arrive at the Wildlife
offices
and be told there were no tags. Somehow this sounds strange to me...

Thanks for your help.

Chris

Again, a Gwaai hunt has taken place and again there are issues with trophies.

Re your question on whether you should be charged, if you do not like a quote from one operator go to another. If someone wants or needs your business,and is wiling to cut corners and take risks, they will cut you a deal, however according to our LAWS, all foreign guests staying in accommodation in Zimbabwe must pay in foreign currency a fee, period, it is declared on the TR2 and the money is acquitted in line with reserve bank guidelines, anyone allowing you to stay in his safari camp for no charge is committing an offense. You can negotiate that fee as it is not set in stone but it has to be realistic!

Your client mentioned you carrying a rifle in Zimbabwe, if you are a PAYING client, you can carry a weapon, you CANNOT take the role of the PH as you are not licensed in Zimbabwe, but you can carry it if it makes you feel better.
As for your client, if he does not want to spend HIS money in Zimbabwe for whatever reason, it is his call, he as the right to go wherever he wants and if he wants you with him, he should be prepared to pay for your expenses as an OBSERVER.

Martin

To add to Chris' points: after participating on this board for a good many years it appears to me that, with the exception of about 3 prominent Zim outfitters, any discussion of booking a hunt with someone in Zim degenerates into accusations of violations of Zim and US laws by the outfitter/PH/hunter. Statutes are quoted by both sides to bolster their cases and reputations are impugned. It doesn't appear that anyone can definitively determine what, or who, is legal and what, or who, isn't. When I booked my prior 4 hunts in Botswana I never ran into anything remotely like this. How much of this is due to Zim politics versus how much of it is due to Zim hunting industry politics is impossible to determine.
I have a question for you: Given the chaotic state of the hunting industry in Zim, why should I consider booking a hunt with you, and how can I have any assurance that it is legal?

Terry it is only become 'chaotic' as you put it since land appropriation and the influx of foreign PHs opting to take advantage of some less advantaged beneficiaries, period, apart from that if you contact SOAZ for a list of registered operators, contact ZPHGA for a list of licensed PH's, contact ZTA for a list of paid up tour operators and contact National parks for a list of concession holders, you should be just fine.

Martin
ZPHGA

Chris:

I would think that an operator would pay you a commission for producing the client and charge you the break even cost incurred by your being in camp.

I cannot speak for the guys in the government areas, but many of the operators hunting on private lands have to pay the land owner based on how many people are actually overnighting, eating and receiving services in the camp/lodge. In that case, your being there is no different than the American client bringing his child or wife along. It all adds to the bill. Nothing is free.

I was making a deal to take some PH's to Tanzania as observers and I recall that there was $100 per day actual costs, taxes and fees just to have the guys in camp as observers. No way the outfitter eats those charges just because the guys are PH's.

Perhaps the same is true for the MARS insurance. I recall that is mandatory in Zim. Only $10 per day, but has to be paid by someone based on the number of foreign souls on the safari.

Bottom line, you can go anywhere with your client, but there are going to be added costs that someone has to pay.

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your response.

Please note that I am not condoning illegal activity in your country and I am not implying that it is OK for SA Operators to rape your country or wildlife resources. I deplore that in the same way you do... So when I asked if it is a fact that all the hunts offered by your black counterparts in conjunction with SA guys are illegal I asked this out of genuine interest... 1.) Because I have had several offers myself from SA guys (which I elected not to follow through on) and 2.) To avoid finding myself in a situation such as that of my friend (who finally did get his trophies but only after many delays and after a lot of worrying on his part)

You offered me what I considered to be a fair deal. And for this I am thankful so please do not see my post as a negative reflection on you. Maybe it was ignorant on my part not to ask whether any fees would be payable by myself... Quite frankly; I never thought about it as none of the camps I use here down South or next door do charge me a fee if I brought clients to them.

I honestly only heard about it being mandatory for Zim Operators to charge me a fee here on AR... And when I did my numbers I figured out that it will be pretty darn hard for me to make it financially viable unless I charged a premium to my clients for hunting with me - which is something I'd prefer not to do in fairness to them.

I fully understand that I cannot act as PH in Zim and I'm quite happy to take a backseat and let you capable guys take care of that part... But hey, let's face it - I'd rather be carrying a rifle with me than not... And it will make my clients feel better too.

I assure you the last thing I want to do is to cut corners and end up doing something illegal.

But I think it is important to also see things from a SA Operator's perspective. Maybe this way we can find a legal solution that would work for us all.

Best regards,

Well said Will, another example, is that the sevarl areas in Zimbabwe will charge a fee for a cameraman to be in camp and film the hunt, example

Bubye Valley Conservancy will charge the following

Local cameraman $ 80
Regional $ 110
Foreign $ 250

I even get charged $ 80/ day to have my apprentice come along, so it is not only about fees being charged to foreign PH's , there are ( as Will says ) additional costs as well as various laws

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by TerryR:
To add to Chris' points: after participating on this board for a good many years it appears to me that, with the exception of about 3 prominent Zim outfitters, any discussion of booking a hunt with someone in Zim degenerates into accusations of violations of Zim and US laws by the outfitter/PH/hunter. Statutes are quoted by both sides to bolster their cases and reputations are impugned. It doesn't appear that anyone can definitively determine what, or who, is legal and what, or who, isn't. When I booked my prior 4 hunts in Botswana I never ran into anything remotely like this. How much of this is due to Zim politics versus how much of it is due to Zim hunting industry politics is impossible to determine.
I have a question for you: Given the chaotic state of the hunting industry in Zim, why should I consider booking a hunt with you, and how can I have any assurance that it is legal?

+1

Terry is on the money. My agent has been trying since last year to get me to pull the trigger on a Zimbabwe hunt. The more I read AR the less likely that is to ever happen. Or at least until the government and hunting issues are settled. Rule of law is a nice thing. I don't care how much "value" there is; it doesn't mean squat if your deposit disappears, you find yourself in an area with no game or worse to me, you end up hunting illegally.

Regards,

Don

Martin
I appreciate you response. Frankly, from a consumer standpoint, the idea that I need to contact 4 different organizations and cross reference their responses before finding out who is doing business legitimately in a country is daunting to most, and a pain in the butt at minimum. I don't have a solution for what is happening in Zim but it doesn't exactly entice me book a hunt there. I sympathize with those of you who are trying to make a living, but as a consumer, I'm concerned.
As you know from another thread, I am scheduled for a Zim hunt this year which I believe is totally above board and I hope comes off well, but frankly I'm not convinced that I shouldn't look elsewhere else for my next hunt.
Not trying to beat up on anyone, but perplexed.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
...there is a strong "Zimbabwe is for Zimbabweans only" sentiment including your PH colleagues from Zimbabwe!

What is wrong with this sentiment?

Each sovereign country exists to benefit its own citizens first and foremost.

I understand that in places like Tanz and Botswana, foriegn nationals can become licenced professional hunters if they jump through the requisite hoops.

But some countries don't, like Zimbabwe.

I understand that clients form attachments to particular hunters - but clients and PH's need to be realistic about the restraints that the attachment may have.

For instance if I want to hunt in Botswana and my PH/friend from Tanzania is not licenced in Botswana - looks like I need to make a new PH/friend in Botswana...

That's if I really want to hunt in Botswana... Of course, for some, the people are more important than the place, and that's fine.

But one shouldn't expect more than the worlds smallest violin if you feel slighted that your goldenboy can't be/act as your PH in a country that he is not a citizen of.

Some guys are fortunate; they may be a Zim citizen and are able to have PH licences in Zim, Tanz, Bots, and are able to be with thier clients in all 3 countries.

Some guys are born in America, Canada, or some other place like South Africa, and can never get a PH licence in Zimbabwe.

Life isn't fair. And no one is obligated to make it so.

Most of us can live with that.

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
...there is a strong "Zimbabwe is for Zimbabweans only" sentiment including your PH colleagues from Zimbabwe!

What is wrong with this sentiment?

Each sovereign country exists to benefit its own citizens first and foremost.

I understand that in places like Tanz and Botswana, foriegn nationals can become licenced professional hunters if they jump through the requisite hoops.

But some countries don't, like Zimbabwe.

I understand that clients form attachments to particular hunters - but clients and PH's need to be realistic about the restraints that the attachment may have.

For instance if I want to hunt in Botswana and my PH/friend from Tanzania is not licenced in Botswana - looks like I need to make a new PH/friend in Botswana...

That's if I really want to hunt in Botswana... Of course, for some, the people are more important than the place, and that's fine.

But one shouldn't expect more than the worlds smallest violin if you feel slighted that your goldenboy can't be/act as your PH in a country that he is not a citizen of.

Some guys are fortunate; they may be a Zim citizen and are able to have PH licences in Zim, Tanz, Bots, and are able to be with thier clients in all 3 countries.

Some guys are born in America, Canada, or some other place like South Africa, and can never get a PH licence in Zimbabwe.

Life isn't fair. And no one is obligated to make it so.

Most of us can live with that.

Good post. In addition, non-Zim ph's taking advantage of the mess in the current government is a little tacky if not unethical.

Not being a rich client, I see no value in paying for a South African PH to come along if I was to hunt with a Zim outfitter. A second PH, especially one that has no licence in Zim is as useful to me as a life preserver in a car crash. If a South African PH wants or can arrange a hunt for me in another country, I would expect him to be satisfied with the 15% fee that is usually paid to a booking agent. If he wants to come along as a vacation or fact finding trip for himself, then he can pay what ever fees are required by the Zim outfitter.

465H&H

Twocents/ 465H&H

Straight to the point. Another thing to consider is most Zimbabwean PH's are very familiar with the area they hunt , this in itself is very beneficial to the client as he will not' go in blind' to an area. Knowing an area backwards is tantamount to success. No matter how 'good' you feel your SA PH is, if he does not know the area, your chances dwindle, so why bring him. Unless of course he is a friend and comes along as a non hunter to keep you company.

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
...there is a strong "Zimbabwe is for Zimbabweans only" sentiment including your PH colleagues from Zimbabwe!

What is wrong with this sentiment?

Each sovereign country exists to benefit its own citizens first and foremost.

I understand that in places like Tanz and Botswana, foriegn nationals can become licenced professional hunters if they jump through the requisite hoops.

But some countries don't, like Zimbabwe.

I understand that clients form attachments to particular hunters - but clients and PH's need to be realistic about the restraints that the attachment may have.

For instance if I want to hunt in Botswana and my PH/friend from Tanzania is not licenced in Botswana - looks like I need to make a new PH/friend in Botswana...

That's if I really want to hunt in Botswana... Of course, for some, the people are more important than the place, and that's fine.

But one shouldn't expect more than the worlds smallest violin if you feel slighted that your goldenboy can't be/act as your PH in a country that he is not a citizen of.

Some guys are fortunate; they may be a Zim citizen and are able to have PH licences in Zim, Tanz, Bots, and are able to be with thier clients in all 3 countries.

Some guys are born in America, Canada, or some other place like South Africa, and can never get a PH licence in Zimbabwe.

Life isn't fair. And no one is obligated to make it so.

Most of us can live with that.

Great Post!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Not being a rich client, I see no value in paying for a South African PH to come along if I was to hunt with a Zim outfitter. A second PH, especially one that has no licence in Zim is as useful to me as a life preserver in a car crash. If a South African PH wants or can arrange a hunt for me in another country, I would expect him to be satisfied with the 15% fee that is usually paid to a booking agent. If he wants to come along as a vacation or fact finding trip for himself, then he can pay what ever fees are required by the Zim outfitter.

465H&H

brilliant!! couldn't agree more!!

That is the HEART & SOUL of the matter. Why do you need a SA PH in a Zim camp? If it is for the comfort of having a known African PH as company, then that SA PH is REALLY a non-hunting companion who has to pay for the stay.

I have never been to Africa. But in any walk of life, why would I take a personal friend / expert / consultant to some one else's patch and expect a freeby?

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Twocents/ 465H&H

Straight to the point. Another thing to consider is most Zimbabwean PH's are very familiar with the area they hunt , this in itself is very beneficial to the client as he will not' go in blind' to an area. Knowing an area backwards is tantamount to success. No matter how 'good' you feel your SA PH is, if he does not know the area, your chances dwindle, so why bring him. Unless of course he is a friend and comes along as a non hunter to keep you company.

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Twocents/ 465H&H

Straight to the point. Another thing to consider is most Zimbabwean PH's are very familiar with the area they hunt , this in itself is very beneficial to the client as he will not' go in blind' to an area. Knowing an area backwards is tantamount to success. No matter how 'good' you feel your SA PH is, if he does not know the area, your chances dwindle, so why bring him. Unless of course he is a friend and comes along as a non hunter to keep you company.

Martin

Many first time African hunters that go to RSA or Namibia fall in love with the PH's there. They are good guys and great in thier own back yard but I have never understood the thinking of bring one to Zim or Zam or Tanz when you can hunt with PH's that are trained, know the land and the animals and are "legal".

I like the guys I have hunted with in RSA but would not consider taking them to the Zambezi Valley for buffalo. They just cannot be of help compared to having a PH that hunts buff and ele every day verses kudu and springbok.

Chris

You keep referring to our Black colleagues , In the eyes of ZPHGA we are all Equal , Black or white we all fall under one roof , there are many of us that operate legally, and many that don't .. As Martin said for peace of mind get hold of the association and find out who are registered , and book with them and them only . don't think for one minute that just because the operator is White he is operating legally ...There are also a lot of Legal operators that will accommodate you and your clients and you both will have a great time here in Zim

Correct Ross

There are many stories of white operators making a run for it, ' David Van Der Meulen 'ring a bell......in every country there are going to be those above board and those below the radar, black or white, colored or Indian.....

Lets not bring race into it.

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
Terry it is only become 'chaotic' as you put it since land appropriation and the influx of foreign PHs opting to take advantage of some less advantaged beneficiaries, period, apart from that if you contact SOAZ for a list of registered operators, contact ZPHGA for a list of licensed PH's, contact ZTA for a list of paid up tour operators and contact National parks for a list of concession holders, you should be just fine.

Martin
ZPHGA

Martin,

It is very unrealistic to expect a prospective hunter to contact all the authorities you have mentioned.
In fact, in all my years of hunting, I have never contacted any organization for any reference regarding a hunt I am going to go on.

I know, it is a very sad situation that whenever a foreign PH is suspected of wrong doing in another country, invariably it turns out he is from South Africa.
But, the situation in Zimbabwe is different. In that a Zimbabwe PH has to be present on these hunts.
So why are the Zimbabwe authorities not taking actions against these PHs?

Saeed

WE are trying and slowly making head way , Sometimes it is hard to get the authorities to act fast enough , but it is a battle we will continue to fight , all we ask is that anyone booking hunts in Zim do it with the right people and with the future of ethical hunting in mind

quote:

Originally posted by We Are Sparta!:


Many first time African hunters that go to RSA or Namibia fall in love with the PH's there. They are good guys and great in thier own back yard but I have never understood the thinking of bring one to Zim or Zam or Tanz when you can hunt with PH's that are trained, know the land and the animals and are "legal".

I like the guys I have hunted with in RSA but would not consider taking them to the Zambezi Valley for buffalo. They just cannot be of help compared to having a PH that hunts buff and ele every day verses kudu and springbok.

Agree or not. I do accompany one of my biggest clients/friends to any country that he wishes to hunt for any trophy of his choice. We have hunted in 9 different countries and all were successful. We have been hunting together since 1997 and do 3 - 4 hunts every year all over Africa.
The reason why he drags me along is because he is a Bow hunter. He has hunted the Big-6 numerous times. He does not feel that the countries North of the Limpopo river has the best Bow hunting PH's. No offence meat. He thinks that Zim has the best Elephant and Leopard PH's and Tanzania has the best Buff PH's and Cameroun has the best Bongo PH's ect. I agree with him on that. How does a PH in a country that has no bow shop or archery instructors or schools become a top Bow PH if he does not do it every day?
99% of my hunts are Bow hunts and I have been actively bow hunting for 27 years. I do know one or two things about a bow.
Saying that, I have yet to have a bad report from any PH that I have worked TOGETHER with on any hunt in any country.
The local PH does know the area and the game but they do not specialize in guiding a client for a bow kill. That is where I come in. We work together for the client. I know his limitations and that of his equipment. I also know how to apply them both to be successful.

Why then can we not work together? I do not give a damn if a Zim or Zambia PH bring a client to SA to hunt. I will help them both to be successful and for them to enjoy it.

Fritz

Bow hunting in Zimbabwe is confined to private land and campfire areas only.

Private land: mostly from blinds, pretty straight forward
Campfire area, mostly elephant/ buffalo with a few cats, I would hesitate to say that there are some top PH's in Zimbabwe that are very capable with a client be it with a bow or a rifle, they may be a bit out of their depth when it comes to hunting with spears and knives as we have seen recently by some of the SA PH's!

Martin

quote:

Originally posted by ross j:
Chris

You keep referring to our Black colleagues , In the eyes of ZPHGA we are all Equal , Black or white we all fall under one roof , there are many of us that operate legally, and many that don't .. As Martin said for peace of mind get hold of the association and find out who are registered , and book with them and them only . don't think for one minute that just because the operator is White he is operating legally ...There are also a lot of Legal operators that will accommodate you and your clients and you both will have a great time here in Zim

My referral to "black PH's" was not intended to be racist or racial. I was referring to race in this instance purely because it is my understanding that 99% of the SA Operators who are marketing hunts in Zimbabwe through anyone other than the established and respected Zim Outfitters are indeed working with black PH's who do not have the resources to establish their own companies or market hunts on their own.

Thanks much for the replies and thanks also Martin for the private correspondence which cleared things up... I may have been better off asking my questions privately in the first instance.

Please understand though that - as a S/African - when statements get thrown out here on the board that effectively paints all S/Africans with the same broad brush it is easy to get a little hot under the collar.

I understand the Zim guys' frustration having unscrupulous SA Operators operating illegally on their turf and don't condone this for one moment.

I do believe that it is perfectly possible for all of us to work together to the benefit of the entire hunting community - provided we honest South Africans get the same respect as what we have for others.

I have several times refered clients who have hunted with me to operators in the region. A couple of times the client has asked me to come along as he 'knows me'.

Either the client has caught the $100-150 per day that the operator in Namibia or Moz has charged for an observer or I have had to pass on any commission for booking the hunt and the operator has worked that into the paperwork instead of an observer fee. If the client has been a good friend, sometimes it is worth loosing the commision to hunt with a friend, look over some new country and sit back and watch another PH work. - and yes, it is a case of sitting back and watching the PH work. Who an I to trophy judge Blesbok and Springbok or black Wildebeest (which don't occur in Zim)...Even on elephant, there are guidelines to judging Ivory weight but elephants in different areas have different tusk forms- Judging Ivory weight in Hwange area is very different to judging it in the Zambezi valley. It really helps to know the area.

I would like to put forward some input as a client.
I feel well qualified as I have hunted Zim for the last six consecutive years and the first of those visits was for a hunt in the Gwaai area that was arranged through a South African Outfitter. The outfitter was reputable, but it quickly became apparent that all was not as it seemed, even to a novice.
The PH was a South African in his early twenties and he quickly made it clear to all concerned that he was in full charge and the black Zim PH was left to tag along like a lap dog.
This local PH was obviously not happy and during my stay he confided that he did not approve, but had little choice as it was his only opportunity to earn a living. At some stage we met “ a friend of the government” who seemed to have the hunting rights over the area.
The whole hunt descended into farce and no animals were taken.
The irony of this in relation to this thread is that I don’t believe that the Outfitter concerned knew the full storey regarding that particular area when he organised my hunt. Later that year, and with very little prompting they offered me a greatly discounted hunt in Zambia to make up for the situation in Gwaai. This hunt was a success and I still consider that S A Outfitter to be genuine and honest.
I liked Zim as a country and following my discovery of AR I did my research and sourced a good reputable Zim Outfitter that I have hunted with ever since.
This coming year will be my sixth hunt with them and I can honestly say that I have not had one moments concern with any of those hunts. By following the news on AR and from the facts gained on the ground in Zim I now have a pretty good grasp of how things work. To the two members who previously posted questioning the wisdom of choosing Zim as destination I would assure them that if you choose a recognised and recommended Zim Outfitter you wont find any better hunting destination in Africa.
This thread has become murky through a bit of personal friction, but the situation is quite simple (even if its resolution isn’t)
The honest and reputable Outfitters in Zim are frustrated that parts of their country are being hunted outside of the laws that they choose to uphold. ( and please be aware that it is not easy to maintain a decent moral stance in Zim when there is always some official ready to offer the opportunity of a back hander)
The people in government who make and enforce those laws are predominantly dishonest and corrupt.
This illegal hunting would not exist if there was not a supply of clients and it would appear that a high percentage of the clients are being supplied by SA Outfitters.
There are good and bad PHs and Outfitters in all African countries and all that the Zim Phs are asking is that the their “good” fellow professional in SA be aware of the situation in Zim and make some attempt to influence the “bad “ professionals if it is within their control.
The fees and regulations regarding foreign PHs hunting in Zim that have been long discussed here have not been formulated by the Zim Phs to discriminate against anyone. These regulations were made by the same government department that chooses to now turn a blind eye to the wrong doing that is currently going on.
The decent Outfitters in Zim have enough on their plate in trying to get the government to recognise its own laws without picking another fight with their like minded professionals in other countries.
Rob

quote:

Originally posted by DonW28:
Terry is on the money. My agent has been trying since last year to get me to pull the trigger on a Zimbabwe hunt. The more I read AR the less likely that is to ever happen. Or at least until the government and hunting issues are settled. Rule of law is a nice thing. I don't care how much "value" there is; it doesn't mean squat if your deposit disappears, you find yourself in an area with no game or worse to me, you end up hunting illegally.

With all due respect, this is a paranoid view that ignores reality. If you book with one of the many reputable outfitters that operate in Zim you can be assured of having a wonderful hunt in an incredible country. All it takes is a minimum amount of due diligence reading through the hunt reports on this website to identify any number of quality operators in Zim. To let the sins of a few taint the rest is unfair -- which is precisely one of the points that many of the Zim PHs posting on this thread and others are trying to make.

I have two points to make!

1. There is nothing wrong with every SA, PH. But would you ask an Italian chef to cook you a chinese meal! So why involve a SA, PH in your zim hunt in any way when there are dozens of good born and brought up Zim PHs. In the same breath I would not hunt with a Zim PH in SA.

2. Why this happens lead to the next point! GREED. Let's be fair and not just crucify the people in the business. Hunters want to shoot a monster animal and have a terrific time and yet get a dirt CHEAP priced hunt. I get PMs here from many hunters who are looking for deals, deals and deals and why is my hunt $X when they can buy it so much cheaper for $Y. So if they look around they will "GET THE DEAL" and pay for it later . Some self soul searching by hunters would also would be a good thing.

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:
I would hesitate to say that there are some top PH's in Zimbabwe that are very capable with a client be it with a bow or a rifle,

Martin

That is exactly what I meant with no offense.

Very well said Rob

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
I have two points to make!

1. There is nothing wrong with every SA, PH. But would you ask an Italian chef to cook you a chinese meal! So why involve a SA, PH in your zim hunt in any way when there are dozens of good born and brought up Zim PHs. In the same breath I would not hunt with a Zim PH in SA.

2. Why this happens lead to the next point! GREED. Let's be fair and not just crucify the people in the business. Hunters want to shoot a monster animal and have a terrific time and yet get a dirt CHEAP priced hunt. I get PMs here from many hunters who are looking for deals, deals and deals and why is my hunt $X when they can buy it so much cheaper for $Y. So if they look around they will "GET THE DEAL" and pay for it later . Some self soul searching by hunters would also would be a good thing.

In life, you get what you pay for. You are better paying too much and getting what you want then paying too little and failing.

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:
I have two points to make!

1. There is nothing wrong with every SA, PH. But would you ask an Italian chef to cook you a chinese meal! So why involve a SA, PH in your zim hunt in any way when there are dozens of good born and brought up Zim PHs. In the same breath I would not hunt with a Zim PH in SA.

2. Why this happens lead to the next point! GREED. Let's be fair and not just crucify the people in the business. Hunters want to shoot a monster animal and have a terrific time and yet get a dirt CHEAP priced hunt. I get PMs here from many hunters who are looking for deals, deals and deals and why is my hunt $X when they can buy it so much cheaper for $Y. So if they look around they will "GET THE DEAL" and pay for it later . Some self soul searching by hunters would also would be a good thing.

+1

Unfortunately we have two threads going on here, and that is my fault as I started the second, but to look at this from the customer side, because that is what we really are customers: determining who is legitimate in Zim is problematic. Several here have suggested solutions.
1.) read AR and you will find out who the good guys are. OK, I have been reading AR for 10 years. With the exception of three prominent Zim outfitters it appears to me that every other Zim operator, Zimbo or not, has at some times been accused of illegal or unethical activity of some sort.
2.) Don't book with any non Zim outfitter. OK but if I go to the web sites of these 3 "AR approved" outfitters I see that one is booking in MOS. If I shouldn't trust a non Zim outfitter who books hunts in Zim why should I trust a Zim outfitter who books hunts in MOS?
3.) Don't hunt with a non Zim PH. I actually agree with this, but I turn on the TV and see a prominent Zim PH, working for another of the 3 AR approved outfits, guiding his client on an elephant hunt in a neighboring country. If I shouldn't trust a non Zim Ph hunting in Zim why should I trust a Zim PH hunting in....
4.) all of the above leaves me with two options: contact 4 different Zim organizations to get their lists of kosher outfits/PHs or go with the last of the AR approved list.
I'm not interested in working through 4 different bureaucracies so I guess if I want to hunt Zim in the future I'll have to call you Martin.

The above isn't meant to bust anyone's chops rather it is to illustrate how the situation in Zim appears to a potential customer who has some small experience in hunting in Africa and who has, to a degree, kept up with what has happened there. For a complete rookie it must be inexplicable. As I said, I don't have a solution, but the level of rhetoric seems to be increasing and that will only put more potential customers off. I know that the Government is going to do what it wants to do but you guys in Zim need to get together and start singing off the same page of the hymnal and it doesn't seem to me that you are doing that.
I don't claim to be speaking for anyone but me, but that is how I see it.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by DonW28:
Terry is on the money. My agent has been trying since last year to get me to pull the trigger on a Zimbabwe hunt. The more I read AR the less likely that is to ever happen. Or at least until the government and hunting issues are settled. Rule of law is a nice thing. I don't care how much "value" there is; it doesn't mean squat if your deposit disappears, you find yourself in an area with no game or worse to me, you end up hunting illegally.

With all due respect, this is a paranoid view that ignores reality. If you book with one of the many reputable outfitters that operate in Zim you can be assured of having a wonderful hunt in an incredible country. All it takes is a minimum amount of due diligence reading through the hunt reports on this website to identify any number of quality operators in Zim. To let the sins of a few taint the rest is unfair -- which is precisely one of the points that many of the Zim PHs posting on this thread and others are trying to make.

Mike,

I guess I will take the paranoid label. Given all the stability in Zimbabwe, clearly articulated hunting rules and regulations which are scrupulously enforced by honest, dedicated, hard working Zimbabwe public officials, and the total lack of posts on AR indicating otherwise, not to mention the total lack of negative reports on various Zimbabwe and non-Zimbabawe PHs why would anyone be concerned in the least. The unique willingness of Zimbabwean courts to award damages to hunters who are harmed by unscrupulous outfitters is refreshing as well. Silly me I thought this was about Zimbabwe. In addition to being paranoid my understanding of English is obviously lacking. I'm missing how this whole post is actually about how great the hunting industry is right now in Zimbabwe.

I would love to have someone PM me with the three legitimate outfitters in the country. I'm taking it that Martin is one. I am going to bite the bullet one of these days and try it.

Regards,

Don

quote:

Originally posted by DonW28:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by DonW28:
Terry is on the money. My agent has been trying since last year to get me to pull the trigger on a Zimbabwe hunt. The more I read AR the less likely that is to ever happen. Or at least until the government and hunting issues are settled. Rule of law is a nice thing. I don't care how much "value" there is; it doesn't mean squat if your deposit disappears, you find yourself in an area with no game or worse to me, you end up hunting illegally.

With all due respect, this is a paranoid view that ignores reality. If you book with one of the many reputable outfitters that operate in Zim you can be assured of having a wonderful hunt in an incredible country. All it takes is a minimum amount of due diligence reading through the hunt reports on this website to identify any number of quality operators in Zim. To let the sins of a few taint the rest is unfair -- which is precisely one of the points that many of the Zim PHs posting on this thread and others are trying to make.

Mike,

I guess I will take the paranoid label. Given all the stability in Zimbabwe, clearly articulated hunting rules and regulations which are scrupulously enforced by honest, dedicated, hard working Zimbabwe public officials, and the total lack of posts on AR indicating otherwise, not to mention the total lack of negative reports on various Zimbabwe and non-Zimbabawe PHs why would anyone be concerned in the least. The unique willingness of Zimbabwean courts to award damages to hunters who are harmed by unscrupulous outfitters is refreshing as well. Silly me I thought this was about Zimbabwe. In addition to being paranoid my understanding of English is obviously lacking. I'm missing how this whole post is actually about how great the hunting industry is right now in Zimbabwe.

I would love to have someone PM me with the three legitimate outfitters in the country. I'm taking it that Martin is one. I am going to bite the bullet one of these days and try it.

Regards,

Don

PM sent

I will say publicly and begin with three off the top of my head

Zambezi Hunters
Brooklands
John Sharp

In addition to Martin Pieters, I will add three more off the top of my head:

Charlton McCallum Safaris
Bvekenya Safaris (Pete Barnard)
Chifuti Safaris

I could go on, but will let others add to the list.

I just want to thank those of you who sent outfitters names to me both privately and on the open forum. I guess I kind of hijacked this thread and it was not my intention. As someone who has finally reached the point that I can achieve some of my safari hunting goals (lion and rhino aren't ever going to happen) I just want to make sure what I do is smart financially and ethically. I know the great values to be had in Zimbabwe but there seems to be continuous ongoing issues too. There is another thread on AR now about some TV personality potentially shooting an illegal leopard in---Zimbabwe. I want to spend my money wisely and hunt ethically. Knowing the right outfitters is a step in the right direction and I appreciate the input. I'll lets the PHs of both countries work this out and again, sorry for the hijack.

Regards,

Don

Don,

I appreciate your perspective. Let me offer mine.

The reason that I hunt in Zimbabwe is that in my view there is still a dedicated group of professional hunters in Zimbabwe that care about their country deeply and who struggle every day against sometimes insurmountable odds to carve out a way forward. They do so with a sense of humor and with a can do spirit that is admirable. In my view, these people are deserving of our support. They represent, in part, the hope for the future of their country and the country's wildlife. I realize that others disagree. Some see supporting the hunting industry in Zimbabwe as being tantamount to supporting the Mugabe regime. I beg to differ. I see it as supporting a group of people that deserve not just our support but our admiration.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Don,

I appreciate your perspective. Let me offer mine.

The reason that I hunt in Zimbabwe is that in my view there is still a dedicated group of professional hunters in Zimbabwe that care about their country deeply and who struggle every day against sometimes insurmountable odds to carve out a way forward. They do so with a sense of humor and with a can do spirit that is admirable. In my view, these people are deserving of our support. They represent, in part, the hope for the future of their country and the country's wildlife. I realize that others disagree. Some see supporting the hunting industry in Zimbabwe as being tantamount to supporting the Mugabe regime. I beg to differ. I see it as supporting a group of people that deserve not just our support but our admiration.

I feel the same way as does my wife.