Ray,

More case capacity? RWS brass that I have used in the past, admitted low numbers here, ALWAYS ran on the small side with regard to case capacity. Also, with specific regard to your load, smaller case capacity would help to explain why you could get so much more velocity than they did.

ASS_CLOWN

Allen and Canuck,

Do think the high pressure signs could have been soft brass as opposed to overloaded ammo?

Mike

There is no doubt that I will regret getting into this fray and the only reason that I am doing so now is that there are greater points to be made beyond this one particular cartridge.

I guess that I am the only guy that has done any pressure data on the 404 (at least that will admit it). Whether I am to be considered credible or not is up to the individual viewer( and sometimes I wonder, myself).

My test gun has a 26" Lothar Walther barrel that measures .4226 groove diameter. I am using the M43 system to measure pressure.

The original thread (arguement) that started a year or more ago dealt with Ray's gun getting 2650fps with a 27" barrel, while using IMR 4831 and a Woodleigh 400gr bullet. Alf is correct that the exotic bullets inject their own variables that I will leave out of this discussion. From here on I'm talking IMR4831 and Woodleigh.

The load in question was 95grs of IMR 4831. As I was doing my own testing at the time, I decided to see what that load would do in my gun, using, as close as I could come, to the same components as Ray. I did work up to that load and IMG (in my gun) it produced 2507fps @ 54,300psi. That load required a drop tube and it was slightly compressed. I may have been able to get a grain or two more in but the goal of testing the load in question was achieved and I didn't go further. I'd had a long day of big guns and I was tired of getting the crap beat out of me.

Ray's infamous load breaks down into a two part question. How did he get that much powder in the case. Well I got it in there but whether you do or not has a lot to do with the lot # of your cases and your dies. If your dies are tight or you just size more than the next guy you will change your sized case capacity. Plus the specific density of powders can change from lot to lot. Some will get it in and some won't.

The big question is how did that load arrive at that velocity. I'll preface my next statement by saying that I have never seen one single bit of hard evidence that would lead me to believe that there is any such thing as a "fast" barrel; meaning a barrel that would give you something for nothing( and by the way, that goes for bullets too). I've seen where some people get that idea, as some have come to me with their "magic" load, but when the pressure is taken, they go home with a on their face. There is no such thing as something for nothing. There was something about Ray's barrel that may have generated more pressure for that given load; tighter bore, tighter chamber, tighter throat, shorter throat, (I will discuss the powder later)or a combination of any of those. I don't call that a fast gun, I call that a tight gun. If you know what your dealing with, it causes no problem at all. As an aside, RIP, that gun of yours is looser than a goat eating green apples. As you have found, you will never generate pressures sufficient to get the velocities desired, while using the slower bulky powders. And no there is nothing wrong with your gun, it is just different; you and Ray having to two extreme ends and all the rest of us somewhere in the middle. Just as you have done, move on to other powders.

Back to the 2650fps. Observing pressures as loads were increased, and extrapolating that out to 2625fps (adjusting 25fps for the one inch of barrel), my gun would have required another 9 to 10,000psi to achieve that ~120fps increase in velocity, or 64 to 65,000psi (equivalent to ~5 grs pressure change). Before the nay sayers start pointing fingers and yelling ahaaa, I say so friggin what. That IS the pressure that the 416 Remington operates at. A 404 at 65K will show no more pressure "indications" than a 416 at 65K. Would I operate at those pressures? No I wouldn't. That is just a personal opinion and if you go back and read what Ray had said initially, he doesn't operate there either. That was an experimental top load for information purposes; that wasn't his hunting load. Some of you folks are going to have to accept that Ray sometimes just enjoys rattling your cages because your cages are so easily rattled.

Now to the powder. Just a few weeks ago I was working with another IMR powder and much to my consternation, I was forced to buy a new can of powder to finish a series of tests. I was right at, or what I thought was right at, the top loads that I would be testing. With the new lot of powder, I had a 11,000psi shift in pressure (thankfully in the "safe" direction) which was equivalent to ~3.5grs in a case that only held 60grs of powder. It doesn't take any stretch to envision a 5 gr equivalent pressure shift in a case that holds nearly 100grs of powder.

So now we have that the just the gun could have caused the change in pressure. Also, just the powder could have caused the change in pressure. It is more plausible that it was a little of both. Shit happens. None of us have the same gun and none of us are dipping out of the same can of powder.


Pertaining to the 404 specifically, what I CAN say is that IF you have a 26" 423 barrel, and IF you use the Woodleigh bullet, and IF you use IMR 4831 in Norma cases, and IF can get sufficient quantity of that powder into the case, and you start low and work up to 2500fps, you will be in the area of 55 to 58K on pressure, which should be safe in any MODERN rifle, and that is irregardless of what powder lot you have. Only your rifle, common sense, and a good quality chronograph can tell you what that load will be.

There is a big question in my mind about the pressures that will be generated by faster powders while trying to achieve the velocities of the slower powders. It is not carved in stone but, generally, you will get the fastest velocity, with the slowest powder that you can get in the case and still achieve the necessary pressures. It is the larger area under the curve that gives the slower powders the edge when trying for top velocities. It is my opinion that the faster powders will hit peak desired pressures before the area is sufficient to duplicate the velocities. That is an opinion, as I have not done that test. I will do so the next time I have that barrel screwed on.


I see all the time, people asking the "best" load or the "top" load for a cartridge. I am often asked the same. Folks, there is no best load that can be used generically. Powder lots change from lot to lot in speed and density and no two guns are alike. THE POWDER CHARGE IS NOT THE PRESSURE. I am not going to live long enough to get that pounded into everybody so I'm going to have it carved on my tombstone. As a backup plan, just in case I'm disinterred, I'm also going to have it tatooed on my ass (the side that will be up for obvious reasons ).

Now that I have managed to piss off all parties involved, I'm going to crawl back into my cave where I belong.

BTW average of ten cases

416 Rem (Rem brand) 106.1grs
416 Rem (HDS brand) 108.8grs
404 Jeff (Norma) 115.2grs

Y'all play nice now.

Mike